 Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @skifluff, Good intel, sobering, but good to have the facts |
the joke up here is that L3 / I.S.I.A = I Ski In Aviemore
L4 and euro-test was for folk that went to the alps.
brexit seems to be making that reality...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Next season (hopefully) I shall monitor who is teaching with a clinical eye.
Wengen and the Jungfrau region generally has always appeared to be very relaxed with instructor engagement. Folk who have an established working relationship with a ski school, I'm convinced will continue "business as usual".
Two British tour operators spring to mind who have their own in house instructors, the standards displayed by some of them on the hill would be well worth closer scrutiny.
Regardless of rules and regulations many Swiss will happily employ Brits, deep down there is admiration for leaving the EU!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Rogerdodger wrote: |
Regardless of rules and regulations many Swiss will happily employ Brits, deep down there is admiration for leaving the EU! |
Each to their own...
Switzerland is one of the last countries I would want to work illegally without visa for cash in hand.
The Swiss will catch you and the fine will be massive.
Plus you will be un-insurable if client was to break a leg <etc>
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Out of curiosity, on average how many BASI members take and pass the CTT in any given year?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Assume the Brit instructors working in CH already have permits and will be able to renew these?
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| adithorp wrote: |
| Out of curiosity, on average how many BASI members take and pass the CTT in any given year? |
Not many. I would guess 10-20 passes a year ? Pass rate is 5-10%.
Switzerland was attractive because (pre-brexit) those with BASI L2 & L3 could work there.
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Assume the Brit instructors working in CH already have permits and will be able to renew these? |
I strongly suspect they will likely need Swiss residency plus a patente to remain longer-term.
Though rules will vary between cantons.
Desperate!
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Assume the Brit instructors working in CH already have permits and will be able to renew these? |
If they already lived full-time in CH on a B/C permit then yes - if they only came over each winter on a new L permit each time then no.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The brexit comedy continues....
Even the Netherlands has banned British ski instructors 
Email from BASI today...
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We are aware that as lockdowns relax and international travel becomes an option some coaches, instructors, clubs and academies may be contemplating visits to ski centres in the Netherlands.
As you will be aware from previous communications, the Netherlands, and consequently ski centres such as Landgraff require coaches and instructors to apply for a work permit in order to operate legally.
Further investigations with UWV Netherlands have indicated that no cross border agreements for employment exist and before any UK citizen would be considered for a work permit, it would need to be shown that no suitable NL, EU, EEA or Swiss person could be found to fulfil the role.
The validity of your insurance cover is determined by whether you are operating legally. Our insurers, Bluefin insurance, have stated that "any insurance cover provided for coaching activity will become void if the activity undertaken is deemed illegal in the country concerned".
Operating in any of the ski centres in the Netherlands which include:
Ruchphen
Zoetermeer
Montana
Snow world Amsterdam
Snow Dome De Uithof
Landgraaf
Terneruzen
Without a work permit will result in your insurance cover almost certainly not being valid and as a result you will not be insured in the event of a claim.
Whilst we cannot prevent coaches, instructors, clubs and academies from choosing to travel to, or operating in any country, we must advise that any coach or instructors choosing to travel to the Netherlands will be running the risk of operating without insurance. This is not something any awarding body could sanction.
If coaches/instructors wish to apply for a work permit the process is outlined below, but an application is at this stage unlikely to succeed and would not, without the issue of a work permit allow a coach to operate legally.
· LINK 1: https://www.government.nl/topics/brexit/question-and-answer/as-a-british-national-do-i-need-a-work-permit-to-work-in-the-netherlands-after-brexit
· LINK 2: https://www.werk.nl/werkgevers/wervingsadvies/werkvergunning/aanvragen/
· LINK 3: https://www.werk.nl/werkgevers/wervingsa
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
The brexit comedy continues....
Even the Netherlands has banned British ski instructors |
The requirement for a work permit for NL was in the statement from Snowsport England.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The news about not being able to coach/instruct in the Netherlands means that clubs and academies won't be able to use it for training and it will see the end of the racing there for UK racers (BASS and Lowlands races used to be two popular events on the UK racing calendar). My children started training/racing at Landgraaf 8 years ago and have had many happy experiences (their first time away from home with us, for instance) and it seems such a shame that other children won't get the opportunity to develop their skiing, find their independence, build friendships with other skiers etc..
Yet another unintended consequence of Brexit for people who had no control over this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It was mentioned earlier that you need to speak French to get residency - You Don't.
You need to pass the DELF B1 language test to submit a CITIZENSHIP application, but there is no such requirement for RESIDENCY.
Also the residency application is now online and much simplified.
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@WindOfChange, that said, some professional qualifications expect good enough French to get equivalency (e.g. medicine) - as you'd hope/expect ...
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You know it makes sense.
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@WindOfChange, residency for those that were in France pre 31/12/20?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, Sure in certain professions, but for Residency there is no language requirement.
Also Microsoft, Cisco, ITIL certifications etc.. are valid if passed in English.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
yes, my point 3 above. there is no mechanism for forcing EFTA member states to recognized UK qualifications. So Irish L3s (snowboard or alpine) can work in France but not a BASI L4 !
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@davidof Curious as to why you think Irish L3 Snowboarders will be allowed to work in FR. As far as I know there is no separate SB qualification/pathway in France and you need to be Alpine licensed. If you could advise I would be grateful. A Brit mate who is an L4 Alpine is all up in arms as he now can't get his L4 SB quals post Brexit.. |
The French can't discriminate against an EU national's qualifications unless there are clear safety grounds - hence the fiction of the Euro "safety" Test.
Well they try but legally it doesn't work, it is not just Butler, there have been a series of cases of Germans, French with Swiss qualifications, Dutch) that have established this in the French courts.
As an EU national you can come with your qualification, say Irish Tiddlywinks Maesto and the French can't say "oh no no no, you need Chess L4 to teach Tiddlywinks, we are not giving you a Carte Pro to legally teach" because your Irish qualification is sufficient to teach Tiddlywinks and it is up to the French administration to prove why it is not sufficient, not up to you to say why it is. As Track and Flow have said, anyone with Irish L2,L3,L4 should be able to declare in France under the 2005 delegated act. Of course the French will reject your application and you'll have to go down the whole long winded Administrative court route to get it confirmed.
| Quote: |
| Therefore, ski instructors holding a BASI qualifica6on below level four can continue to request the recognition of their qualification in any host Member State in line with the rules of the Professional Qualifica6ons Directive – regardless of whether a Member State is listed in AnnexI of the Delegated Act. |
https://trackandflow.eu/new-blog/eu-confirms-that-directive-applies-to-professionals-at-any-level
As for the SMA with Switzerland, I note it only lasts 2 years post Brexit. It lets independent UK instructors work for up to 90 days in CH by simple declaration (as I think @Ise has already said).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
The French can't discriminate against an EU national's qualifications unless there are clear safety grounds - hence the fiction of the Euro "safety" Test.
Well they try but legally it doesn't work, it is not just Butler, there have been a series of cases of Germans, French with Swiss qualifications, Dutch) that have established this in the French courts.
As an EU national you can come with your qualification, say Irish Tiddlywinks Maesto and the French can't say "oh no no no, you need Chess L4 to teach Tiddlywinks, we are not giving you a Carte Pro to legally teach" because your Irish qualification is sufficient to teach Tiddlywinks and it is up to the French administration to prove why it is not sufficient, not up to you to say why it is. As Track and Flow have said, anyone with Irish L2,L3,L4 should be able to declare in France under the 2005 delegated act.
https://trackandflow.eu/new-blog/eu-confirms-that-directive-applies-to-professionals-at-any-level |
Yes and no.
As you say : there were previously 2 ways for BASI instructors to work in France.
1) Get your BASI L4, pass Euro Test and apply for french equivalence. (Libre Presentation)
2) Make a deceleration under EU law that you wish to work in France and present qualifications showing no substantial difference. (Libre Establishment)
However as result of brexit both paths are now closed.
Path 1 is closed because BASI, as non-EU association, can no longer present candidates for Euro Test.
Path 2 is closed because it was dependent on EU law (UK has left EU and its too late to apply).
In both case you would still need an EU passport or permanent residency.
For example : if a BASI instructor joined Irish association they would still need an EU passport to make L.E. application.
As an aside - while #2 might be correct under EU law how the French interpret that ruling longer term is yet to be seen.
Certainly it is far from an open door. My own application via Track and Flow has been refused pending appeal.
Have no plans to work in France, but thought there was no harm submitting application before brexit day to ensure qualifications recognised in future.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 27-05-21 10:33; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I saw yesterday that the Swiss-EU negotiations on an all around trade deal which have been going on for several years have been abandoned by the Swiss, citing unreasonable and intransient EU demands.
I think there is a very strong possibility of a quite quick UK-Swiss bilateral deal, there is a lot of sympathy for Brexit in Switzerland's political classes and it would be a typical Swiss way of giving the EU "The Finger".
If that is the case there may be some hope for a bilateral freedom of movement or employment deal as part of that which could reopen Switzerland for UK ski instructors.
Finger's crossed...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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i think that is clutching at straws not much chance in the short term
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@rungsp, we can but hope!
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| swskier wrote: |
| @rungsp, we can but hope! |
Would make a lot of sense. And the Swiss are typically pragmatic
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| swskier wrote: |
| @rungsp, we can but hope! |
Would make a lot of sense. And the Swiss are typically pragmatic |
It would certainly give me some form of hope that i'm not wasting my time/money starting my qualifications!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| swskier wrote: |
| @rungsp, we can but hope! |
Would make a lot of sense. And the Swiss are typically pragmatic |
My guess : there will eventually be a UK-CH bilateral deal for professionals.
Ski instructors however won't even be on the radar for government - so unless you are already full-cert / (patente / brevet) there will no chance of a limited visa.
The Swissy's are indeed pragmatic - which is why their EFTA relationship with EU is much closer than Johnson's damaging brexit fantasy.
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@Haggis_Trap, there was no way ever that the Swiss were going to give up their work/residency permit control, and very little leverage for the EU in thinking that the existing bilateral agreements were not adequate.
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FAQ
