 Poster: A snowHead
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I already have a 70mm ski though so is there not way too much overlap there - is 80mm not too close? A guy recommended the Volkl Deacon 80 actually to me today at the shop. Did have a massive shovel - it was 15m radius but practically no rocker. He seemed to share your opinion that skis 90-100mm were really 70% off piste skis and 30% on piste. Others seem to say anything under 100mm is very narrow for off piste though so it seems to depend who you ask. He suggested 80mm were all mountain and more like 50/50 skis where as if often seen people saying 90mm is more your 70% piste 30% off piste and 90-100 is more 50/50.
I found out what they had in Kaprun for rental:
Bent Chetler 100
Nordica Enforcer 93
Kastle MX89 / 84
Volkl Deacon 80
Stockli AX
Rossignol Soul 7
QST something
To Buy:
Head Kore 93
Blizzard Brahma 88
Blizzard Rustler 9 / 10
Stockli SX / AX / SC
Atomic Bent Chetler 100-120
Volkl Deacon 80 / Kendo 88 / M5 Mantra / Revolt
Atomic Vantage 90
Rossignol Sky / Soul 7 / Black Ops / Experience 84/88
Fischer Ranger 99
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Powder Pete wrote: |
I already have a 70mm ski though so is there not way too much overlap there - is 80mm not too close? A guy recommended the Volkl Deacon 80 actually to me today at the shop. Did have a massive shovel - it was 15m radius but practically no rocker. He seemed to share your opinion that skis 90-100mm were really 70% off piste skis and 30% on piste. Others seem to say anything under 100mm is very narrow for off piste though so it seems to depend who you ask. He suggested 80mm were all mountain and more like 50/50 skis where as if often seen people saying 90mm is more your 70% piste 30% off piste and 90-100 is more 50/50.
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Weight comes into it. At 10 Stone, I would get away with a much narrower ski to get "float", than someone of 16 Stone.
As a very simplistic example, I have a calculation that I call the "Flotation Factor". It is Ski Length (cm) x Width (mm) divided by your weight in Kilos.
Look for a figure of 250+ for really good float and maybe 210+ for All Mountain.
This might be a bit simplistic, but at least it brings weight into the equation. For example, I get a figure of 255 from a 180 Scott The Ski, whereas somebody weighing 95Kg would get a figure of 174.
The design features also play a big part eg Rocker/Taper/Camber etc....all of which will make life easier and should be factored in.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Powder Pete wrote: |
I already have a 70mm ski though so is there not way too much overlap there - is 80mm not too close? A guy recommended the Volkl Deacon 80 actually to me today at the shop. Did have a massive shovel - it was 15m radius but practically no rocker. He seemed to share your opinion that skis 90-100mm were really 70% off piste skis and 30% on piste. Others seem to say anything under 100mm is very narrow for off piste though so it seems to depend who you ask. He suggested 80mm were all mountain and more like 50/50 skis where as if often seen people saying 90mm is more your 70% piste 30% off piste and 90-100 is more 50/50.
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Weight comes into it. At 10 Stone, I would get away with a much narrower ski to get "float", than someone of 16 Stone.
As a very simplistic example, I have a calculation that I call the "Flotation Factor". It is Ski Length (cm) x Width (mm) divided by your weight in Kilos.
Look for a figure of 250+ for really good float and maybe 210+ for All Mountain.
This might be a bit simplistic, but at least it brings weight into the equation. For example, I get a figure of 255 from a 180 Scott The Ski, whereas somebody weighing 95Kg would get a figure of 174.
The design features also play a big part eg Rocker/Taper/Camber etc....all of which will make life easier. |
Yeah that's a fair point. Interesting idea with the flotation factor. I like it. Do you find it accurate? I'm losing weight at the moment but i'm more 90kg so a 180cm x 100mm would give me 200 flotation factor. To get near to the 210 I'm going to need a 100mm ski in the longest length like 187 and a 105mm ski would put me near 220.
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| Powder Pete wrote: |
Yeah that's a fair point. Interesting idea with the flotation factor. I like it. Do you find it accurate? I'm losing weight at the moment but i'm more 90kg so a 180cm x 100mm would give me 200 flotation factor. To get near to the 210 I'm going to need a 100mm ski in the longest length like 187 and a 105mm ski would put me near 220. |
It's nothing more than a simplistic guide - but it gives an idea. For example, the speed you ski at will have a big effect.....and also if the ski has Off Piste specific features, like Reverse Camber.
Nothing will beat trying it out.
I just wanted to make the point that width, isn't the whole story. It's Width/Length/Weight/Speed/Design/Skill.
Before it closed down, the Barking Bear forum in the States, had a Physicist who did the calculations (keeping certain things equal), on how weight effected the surface area needed to get the ski to float - and it was very enlightening. I can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like that an 8 Stone Woman would get the same float with a 75mm ski, as a 15 stone man would on 115mm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| ......Before it closed down, the Barking Bear forum in the States, had a Physicist who did the calculations (keeping certain things equal), on how weight effected the surface area needed to get the ski to float - and it was very enlightening. I can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like that an 8 Stone Woman would get the same float with a 75mm ski, as a 15 stone man would on 115mm. |
That was Physicsman (Tom) on Epicski. He also posted on snowHeads in the early days: https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=1280
We got in to some right geeky stuff then but nowhere near as bad as Epicski.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 11-12-19 21:14; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Very interesting. I think what i'll do is try out a few rentals to try and assess what is good for me. I'll try the Rossignol Soul 7 at 107mm, the Nordica Enforcer at 93mm and a Stockli AX / Volkl Deacon at around 80mm. That should give me a fair idea or what width I like. IT might be an idea not to spend a lot on high end skis like the Stockli / Kastle until I figure out what works well for my skiing. The last thing I want to do is blow the best part of £1000 on some stormrider 95 or 88 and decide they're too narrow or too wide etc.
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Haha yes, the burden of unlimited choice. I'll let you know how I find the various ones I get to try. I wish it was like snowheads Oktobertest over here!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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That's the very chap.....I didn't know he posted here at the start.
He did provide food for thought.
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@Powder Pete, buy the ski for the majority of your skiing which you’ve said is 70% piste. A 100mm+ ski is not the answer IMHO!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Powder Pete wrote: |
I already have a 70mm ski though so is there not way too much overlap there - is 80mm not too close? A guy recommended the Volkl Deacon 80 actually to me today at the shop. Did have a massive shovel - it was 15m radius but practically no rocker. He seemed to share your opinion that skis 90-100mm were really 70% off piste skis and 30% on piste. Others seem to say anything under 100mm is very narrow for off piste though so it seems to depend who you ask. He suggested 80mm were all mountain and more like 50/50 skis where as if often seen people saying 90mm is more your 70% piste 30% off piste and 90-100 is more 50/50.
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Was he an old Austrian guy by any chance? No school like the old school 
But yes, 70 and 80mm is a lotta overlap. If you wanna go that way sell your 70mms and buy the 80mm + a fat pair.
There's a tendency to think that all mountain = 50% groomed pistes. It doesn't - it includes pistes, bumps, crud, powder, crust, firn, slush, steeps, trees, couloirs, open faces, equally. No ski will ever excel at all of that, but around 100mm with some tip and tail rocker compromises pretty equally on all of them.
70:30 would be more like 100-110mm in my book.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Powder Pete wrote: |
| Very interesting. I think what i'll do is try out a few rentals to try and assess what is good for me. I'll try the Rossignol Soul 7 at 107mm, the Nordica Enforcer at 93mm and a Stockli AX / Volkl Deacon at around 80mm. That should give me a fair idea or what width I like. |
Try those Salomon QSTs (in 99 and 106mm) too. Stiffer than the Rossi so might suit you better on piste.
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@Powder Pete, have you considered Snowboarding?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Powder Pete wrote: |
I already have a 70mm ski though so is there not way too much overlap there - is 80mm not too close? A guy recommended the Volkl Deacon 80 actually to me today at the shop. Did have a massive shovel - it was 15m radius but practically no rocker. He seemed to share your opinion that skis 90-100mm were really 70% off piste skis and 30% on piste. Others seem to say anything under 100mm is very narrow for off piste though so it seems to depend who you ask. He suggested 80mm were all mountain and more like 50/50 skis where as if often seen people saying 90mm is more your 70% piste 30% off piste and 90-100 is more 50/50.
I found out what they had in Kaprun for rental:
Bent Chetler 100
Nordica Enforcer 93
Kastle MX89 / 84
Volkl Deacon 80
Stockli AX
Rossignol Soul 7
QST something
To Buy:
Head Kore 93
Blizzard Brahma 88
Blizzard Rustler 9 / 10
Stockli SX / AX / SC
Atomic Bent Chetler 100-120
Volkl Deacon 80 / Kendo 88 / M5 Mantra / Revolt
Atomic Vantage 90
Rossignol Sky / Soul 7 / Black Ops / Experience 84/88
Fischer Ranger 99 |
This ski categorization is a very cultural thing. We in France would not regard a 80 mm ski as a real all-mountain ski but rather a "Toutes neiges Tous terrains" ("allround") 100% piste ski. Proskilab reviews all-mountain categories start at 85mm. We we would even consider this width as a bit narrow for all-mountain. Our own experience shows that ideal width for 70% piste 30% freeride all-mountain skis would be around 88-90 mm.
In Germany, which is a more piste-oriented market, a 80 mm may be actually regarded as an all-mountain ski (which sounds ridiculous to me).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@clarky999 No he was a young Austrian that looked like he'd just left school. I guess the tradition is passed on.
@BobinCH I can and used to snowboard a bit but skiing is my passion now.
@proskilab yes I'm sure your right about the cultural thing - 88-90mm Is that a typo - that's very specific. I liked your review of the Rossignol 94ti by the way - seems like it might suit me. How would you say it compares to the enforcer 93 since thats my new reference point.
Anyway I got hold of the enforcer 93s today in 185cm. Heavy big, Very heavy. I was kind of surprised by how wide and huge they actually were. On piste I didn't like them that much. They were ok - did the job. Not great for carving which is what I like to do most of the time on piste.
Off piste in the wet heavy chopped up snow and bit of powder they floated great. Really have me confidence to ski and explore the side piste on blue slopes. I don't really feel I have the confidence or control for red off piste yet. I did find them quite difficult to turn and initiate though. When I got them going with the short turns they'd spring me up and bounce me around and it was great fun. A similar kind of rebound feeling to G9s in short turns on piste but off piste.
I did feel they were hard to control and not the most manageable ski for someone who is quite new too off piste. I did have a much better time than I ever have off piste with my G9s but I don't think they are the right ski for me. Quite burly and demanding - hard work. Not at all nimble.
I probably skied about 50/50 today. I'd say these 93 skis are in no way 70/30 ski. I'd say they are more like a 70% off piste kind of ski on initial impressions. Their ability dramatically favoured the off piste. I guess if I go 93 it wouldn't be my daily driver. It would be my off piste ski. Perhaps that would change if there was light and fluffy powder but I didn't get to try that.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 12-12-19 18:23; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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My Scott The Ski are 92mm underfoot and 180......I'm only 64 Kg, but these are playful and work well, both On and Off Piste.
I would expect Head Core 93 to have a similar feel - if not even better.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@clarky999 No he was a young Austrian that looked like he'd just left school. I guess the tradition is passed on.
@BobinCH I can and used to snowboard a bit but skiing is my passion now.
@proskilab yes I'm sure your right about the cultural thing - 88-90mm Is that a typo - that's very specific. I liked your review of the Rossignol 94ti by the way - seems like it might suit me. How would you say it compares to the enforcer 93 since thats my new reference point. Perhaps I should be looking at all mountain front though like the wingman? Why is the Kore 93 categorised as front side but the 94ti is backside? Judging by your reviews it seems that the stormrider 88 probably isn't worth the money. I feel like a beginner skier again on the off piste to a certain extent and am looking to transfer what I can do on piste to the resort off piste (for now).
Anyway I got hold of the enforcer 93s today in 185cm. Heavy big, Very heavy. I was kind of surprised by how wide and huge they actually were. On piste I didn't like them that much. They were ok - did the job. Not great for carving which is what I like to do most of the time on piste. Can do it but not that well. Felt alright.
Off piste in the wet heavy chopped up snow and bit of powder they floated great. Really have me confidence to ski and explore the side piste on blue slopes. I don't really feel I have the confidence or control for red off piste yet. I did find them quite difficult to turn and initiate though. When I got them going with the short turns they'd spring me up and bounce me around and it was great fun. A similar kind of rebound feeling to G9s in short turns on piste but off piste.
I did feel they were hard to control and not the most manageable ski for someone who is quite new too off piste. I did have a much better time than I ever have off piste with my G9s but I don't think they are the right ski for me. Quite burly and demanding - hard work. Not at all nimble.
I probably skied about 50/50 today. I'd say these 93 skis are in no way 70/30 ski. I'd say they are more like a 70% off piste kind of ski on initial impressions. Their ability dramatically favoured the off piste. I guess if I go 93 it wouldn't be my daily driver. It would be my off piste ski. Perhaps that would change if there was light and fluffy powder but I didn't get to try that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Powder Pete, A massive amount of how a ski feels off piste is down to techniques such a unweighting, shifting balance and maintaining appropriate weight distribution. I was out yesterday on my 11 year old pre rocker Enforcers at 177cm and 98mm, all day off piste in variable snow with breakable crust, wind polished humps, forests, powder pockets, frozen ground etc. I found it hard work, my 185cm fat skis are actually easier to turn.
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So i've got used to the enforcer. With the edges sharpened its a pretty good carver but still nowhere near a GS ski. I might get a mid 90s ski in the future but for now I think i'll be sticking around the 70-85mm mark. A ski that wide could never be my daily driver. I think I much prefer narrow. I think i'd rather something lighter, a bit shorter and more manuverabe if i did get a 90mm like a head kore. Trying some Kastle MX74 tomorrow. When I get a few days off i'll take out some stockli AX and AR. My friends glowing review of the WRT and the things I've read about the SX also make me tempted to try though even though they're piste skis. Elan wingman 86 seem interesting but I would have to buy without trying.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Powder Pete,
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A ski that wide could never be my daily driver
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I ski Mantras (96mm) underfoot. I can leave pencil lines on the piste, bounce through trees, powder, bumps. A ski that wide can be your daily ski. Back home on indoor snow and plastic I use Racetigers, it takes me a couple of turns to adjust. Both skis are telemark, not alpne tho'
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@ski, I'd agree. I ski 97's through trees, bumps. That's not why I have 97's of course. If that was all I was doing I'd probably have something shorter, narrower and turnier. But I am not. Moist of the time I'm looking for lift accessed powder stashes!
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@Layne, Yup, me too 
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It could be my daily ski but I definitely don't want it to be. After living with a wider ski for a week I'm left thinking I would much rather have 3 skis in my quivver. I just don't enjoy skiing wide skis as much so it would be more of occasional ski for me.
1) Race Ski - Slalom or GS
2) A Piste Focused all mountain ski around the 75-85 Mark
3) A 90-ish just for off piste.
It was really good to be back on the piste skis today. Really enjoyed the Kastle MX74. Seemed more versatile than a race ski even if the rebound and energy can't match it. Quite a smooth piste ski and not at all tiring. An easy ski even though reviews seem to say they're advanced. I tried the 172cm as it's all they had but I'd probably buy the 180cm.
For now I think i'm going for the Stockli AX or AR subject to being very impressed when I rent them. I'd also consider the Kastle but I'm hoping stockli are in a different league. I found the MX74 a nice ski but wasn't massively wowed. I enjoyed it but I didn't think "yes - that's a 900 euro ski" and I can tell it's worth every penny. I wouldn't be averse to owning a pair though. I'll try and get hold of an MX84 to see if it would satisfy my 74-85 all mountain needs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Great thread that sums up the dilemma of skiers today! It’s a 3 ski world...
Have you considered the Volkl deacon 84 as your “in between” / all mountain ski? I’ve heard good things about them, and it seems to have some clever multi radius tech. I wonder how it compares to the Rossi Experience 84ai? Keen to try the Volkl personally.
I get that experienced expert skiers will consider 84mm very much piste biased, but they (at least the Rossi 84AI I tried) do have a smoother feel to the narrow waisted race derived skis and in my limited experience it felt like the sort of ski to take out on heavy fresh snow days, even if staying on piste. I have limited off piste experience so cannot comment on that...
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@Powder Pete, good thread this and glad you've worked out what works for you! I'm a 2 ski quiver person, mostly ski a 74mm Volkl Codewall L which is a detuned GS ski, does most everything inc offpiste. It's fantastic to rip turns on piste, shorts, longs etc on a edge cuts through crud etc.
Then if it is dumping or touring I'll be on a Whitedot R.98 ....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| kitenski wrote: |
@Powder Pete, good thread this and glad you've worked out what works for you! I'm a 2 ski quiver person, mostly ski a 74mm Volkl Codewall L which is a detuned GS ski, does most everything inc offpiste. It's fantastic to rip turns on piste, shorts, longs etc on a edge cuts through crud etc.
Then if it is dumping or touring I'll be on a Whitedot R.98 .... |
Thanks. I'll keep updating with all the skis I test this season. Stockli's coming soon  That sounds amazing if a 74mm ski can do all that. I'd probably like that. A guy in Brundl recommended the Deacon 80 to me. I guess the codewall is discontinued and replaced by the Deacon 76 or 76 pro. I've yet to try an 80mm ski. I could swear the white dot 94s felt nowhere near as wide as the Nordica enforcers. Since the enforcers got a decent edge tune I liked them a lot more but still didn't really like them. Skiing the Altum 104s just before the 94s - it felt like I had transitioned to a soft but very springy energetic piste ski. Wish I could try them on real mountains.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Got the Laser AX 175cm for a few days. Let's see what Stockli are all about!
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@Powder Pete, yeah just had a look on the Volkl website, looks like the Deacon is the replacement....
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You know it makes sense.
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The Stockli AX were smooth and the bases felt like they just glided on top of the snow. I didn't feel they had enough edge grip or enough excitement and rebound in the turn though. Maybe a bit more recreational than i'd like. Perhaps the WRT (although I might find them way too short) or GS Stockli's would suit me better. I'm on the Green(red)sters at the moment - Atomic X9 in 181cm. They feel great. A bit more willing to turn than the G9. After being back on the 177cm G9 I think I prefer the 183cm for stability and edge hold - bit more of a handful and less lively though as they are harder to push. With conditions as they are at the moment a soft snow ski isn't at the front of my mind anymore.
Any other skis that you'd recommend with awesome edge grip, lively rebound and energy?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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any FIS SL ski?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Do slalom skis not really tend to lack stability though? I've never tried a proper slalom ski before. I recently skied an elan 170cm SLX with a 13.5m radius and returned it to the rental store after 1 run. Felt like the radius was too small and the ski was too short and lacked stabilty - like I was skiing children's skis. Is that normal for slalom skis or was it just a very average ski?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Powder Pete wrote: |
| Do slalom skis not really tend to lack stability though? I've never tried a proper slalom ski before. I recently skied an elan 170cm SLX with a 13.5m radius and returned it to the rental store after 1 run. Felt like the radius was too small and the ski was too short and lacked stabilty - like I was skiing children's skis. Is that normal for slalom skis or was it just a very average ski? |
My Slalom Skis are pretty stable (in the sense they don't flap) and are full camber - but like to keep turning. In a straight line, they are twitchy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Powder Pete wrote: |
| Do slalom skis not really tend to lack stability though? I've never tried a proper slalom ski before. I recently skied an elan 170cm SLX with a 13.5m radius and returned it to the rental store after 1 run. Felt like the radius was too small and the ski was too short and lacked stabilty - like I was skiing children's skis. Is that normal for slalom skis or was it just a very average ski? |
My Slalom Skis are pretty stable (in the sense they don't flap) and are full camber - but like to keep turning. In a straight line, they are twitchy. |
If you keep them on edge they are very stable. I found I was confident skiing them fast (by my standards) because I had such control over turn shape and edge change plus the rock solid construction just drove through ripples in the snow without any kind of chatter or deflection
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| Powder Pete wrote: |
| Do slalom skis not really tend to lack stability though? I've never tried a proper slalom ski before. I recently skied an elan 170cm SLX with a 13.5m radius and returned it to the rental store after 1 run. Felt like the radius was too small and the ski was too short and lacked stabilty - like I was skiing children's skis. Is that normal for slalom skis or was it just a very average ski? |
My Slalom Skis are pretty stable (in the sense they don't flap) and are full camber - but like to keep turning. In a straight line, they are twitchy. |
If you keep them on edge they are very stable. I found I was confident skiing them fast (by my standards) because I had such control over turn shape and edge change plus the rock solid construction just drove through ripples in the snow without any kind of chatter or deflection |
Yup.....and mine aren't FIS.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Atomic vantage ti97, light and cheap.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Powder Pete wrote: |
| Any other skis that you'd recommend with awesome edge grip, lively rebound and energy? |
Any detuned GS ski, tried the Volkls GS Racetiger or the Deacon??
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I haven't tried any detuned GS ski apart from the atomic G9. I did try the X9 (Green) and loved it. Absolutely railed long and short turns. Loved to be on edge and turn way more naturally and easily than the G9. Really nice carver. I'm skiing that in the 181 length (around head height) so I guess I will probably miss the fore aft stability of that if I lose 15cm with an FIS SL ski.
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Forgive my ignorance but detuning means removing the sharp edge from the ski's?
Won't that completely kill the edge grip? Isn't that the point?
Only thing I can think of doing this for is for park riding...
Or do you mean detune the tip and tails... which I thought had been debunked as pointless on modern ski's... but maybe not on GS ski's?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne, no I mean it's not as stiff/performant/unforgiving as a FIS ski, ie "detuned"
@Powder Pete, When I got my Volkls the Atomic Redsters were also recommended but I got a better deal on the Volks! Whilst I think a shorter slalom ski would be great fun, for me, the longer GS type ski as you say will be more stable and hopefully a touch better off piste/spring slush etc
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| kitenski wrote: |
| @Layne, no I mean it's not as stiff/performant/unforgiving as a FIS ski, ie "detuned" |
Doesn't that just make them a normal piste ski?
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FAQ
