This makes me wonder if your Atris's had a bad tune or concave base? As there's no way that design should - or in my experience is - harder to ski than the Monsters! They literally ARE in the park/freesytle inspired AM ski category you mention later...
I'd be surprised if it was the tune as they were brand new factory fresh and they felt fine on the freshly groomed runs carving out medium and large radius turns.
See this review http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/2016-2017-moment-meridian/2 where the reviewer skied a new ski with the edges higher than the base- it can completely change the ski. IME factory tunes are normally pretty rubbish and not a guarantee. It's worth a check as your opinion on the skis is quite surprising given both mine and many others experience with them.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
JackSkier wrote:
uktrailmonster wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
This makes me wonder if your Atris's had a bad tune or concave base? As there's no way that design should - or in my experience is - harder to ski than the Monsters! They literally ARE in the park/freesytle inspired AM ski category you mention later...
I'd be surprised if it was the tune as they were brand new factory fresh and they felt fine on the freshly groomed runs carving out medium and large radius turns.
See this review http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/2016-2017-moment-meridian/2 where the reviewer skied a new ski with the edges higher than the base- it can completely change the ski. IME factory tunes are normally pretty rubbish and not a guarantee. It's worth a check as your opinion on the skis is quite surprising given both mine and many others experience with them.
I will check them out thoroughly when I get back out to Canada in December where I left them in our apartment. I totally agree that my experience with these skis is totally at odds with what you would expect, given their design and reviews. But nonetheless, they didn't perform anything like advertised and if it turns out the factory tune is rubbish then that's a good enough reason not to buy any more BC skis. I've never had any such issues with any other skis from Head, Volkl, Atomic, Line, etc, etc. So far I'm not that impressed with them.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@horizon,
Quote:
Interesting. I do find the R018CL easy to ski on piste...as long as you're just happy drifting around and not trying to put in some proper carved turns. In the latter case, they're only ok when the snow softens, but there's no way to trust them for a faster turn on harder snow, let alone ice.
Don't get me wrong - they aren't ideal on piste but I can carve a limited range of turn shapes on them. They are just much much better on piste than the Redeemers! I've never skied any DPS skis but most of them seem to have a bit more sidecut (like Rossi Soul etc) and shorter radius than R108s so I can imagine they ARE better on piste.
I’m not certain I understand the premise of the thread. I have tried twin tips and really didn’t like them, ditto for reverse camber. I would like a lively ski that can turn easily but is light and fat enough with some rocker for skiing off piste. How does that fit into the “playful vs directional” debate?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
I would like a lively ski that can turn easily but is light and fat enough with some rocker for skiing off piste. How does that fit into the “playful vs directional” debate?
It's a 50/50 compromise between the two isn't it? At the mid point of the spectrum?
I’m not certain I understand the premise of the thread. I have tried twin tips and really didn’t like them, ditto for reverse camber. I would like a lively ski that can turn easily but is light and fat enough with some rocker for skiing off piste. How does that fit into the “playful vs directional” debate?
The premise of the thread was basically how do centre mounted park inspired twin-tip AM skis (Like the Line SFB) compare with the latest crop of "Big Mountain" skis of similar footprint, given that they appear (on paper at least) to be merging in design to some extent e.g. more forgiving flex pattern, more centred mounting points, rockered tips and tails etc. My personal experience with the previous gen Line SFB and BC Atris (both 108 mm under foot, both with similar tip and tail rocker, similar overall stiffness, both relatively centre mounted) couldn't have been more different in character and I was very surprised how differently they performed. To the point where I'm now starting to think I've been dealt a dud set of BC skis from the factory.
In the same vane I was also considering how more traditional "directional chargers" (Head Monsters, Dynastar Legend Pros, Kastles etc) compare to some of the more progressive designs like the BC Atris. I'm none the wiser after this season's experiment!
You appear to be looking for a ski that could potentially come from both camps. You obviously don't need a twin-tip, but some of those skis are pretty lively and can certainly turn easily, while providing enough footprint and rocker to work well off piste. Line SFBs are pretty hard to beat in those respects, although there are lighter options today.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think my problem with a twin tip is that I am standing too close to the front and feel like I am in danger of going over the handlebars all the time. As I don’t intend to go backwards I feel they don’t suit my style.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Gordyjh wrote:
I think my problem with a twin tip is that I am standing too close to the front and feel like I am in danger of going over the handlebars all the time. As I don’t intend to go backwards I feel they don’t suit my style.
Yeah, they require a more centred stance, skiing from the centre rather than loading the tips. But that's how I like it. The Line SFB was my first foray into centre mounted skis back in 2012 and I felt at home on them from the very first turn. The Atris is mounted further back relative to the SFB (although quite forward compared to more traditional skis), so I thought I would feel at home there too. My Volkl 90Eights have a more traditional mounting point and feel very nice too, making a fantastic all-rounder. They have that ability to carve or slide on demand as you feel like it. The Line SFBs feel quite loose on piste but can carve neat short radius turns with almost zero effort providing the piste is reasonably soft/grippy. The Atris feels more at home carving out large GS turns and anything else I found harder work than necessary.
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Perhaps if I can get to Oktobertest I can find something that suits me.
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After messing around with some binding position on a couple of pairs of skis the past few days it has become abundantly clear to me that are a lot of perceptions of the nature of a ski are heavily influenced by mounting position.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
After messing around with some binding position on a couple of pairs of skis the past few days it has become abundantly clear to me that are a lot of perceptions of the nature of a ski are heavily influenced by mounting position.
Which is why the recommended mounting point is often a design criteria of the ski itself. The Line SFB has the most forward "factory recommended" mount point I've personally come across and I found it instantly comfortable. But I wouldn't fancy skiing my Volkls with the same mounting point. Horses for courses I guess.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mount point is a critical design criteria from the offset, right from the initial design ideas really. It's linked quite heavily with taper styles at the tail and tip and the rocker profile, for example some of our new designs feature a progressive mount point, but also twin tipped and tapered at the tail which means that unless you are skiing switch the final cm's are redundant in terms of edge control.
Effectively a 187cm tip tip twin rocker ski that has a mount point of say -3cm would have the same tip length as a flat tail traditionally mounted 179cm ski.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Dave of the Marmottes, are we agreeing that hereon, binding mount positions should be labelled on skis as "regular", "juvenile" and "saga"?
I think far more useful than just +/- numbers.
By the way - anyone - dumb question but when a binding mount is "-3cm" for example, is that 3cm towards the tip or 3cm towards the tail?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
The discussion on binding position is exactly why I put Marker Schizos on my Line SFBs. Very glad I did as ‘Eric’s choice’ (-2 cm from centre on my 2014-15 model) felt very far forwards. Just adjusting the binding back another 3 cm felt much better to me. So that’s where my Beasts are now mounted.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Having just come across this http://blistergearreview.com/features/glossary-snowsports Directional: A directional skier is someone who never skis switch and rarely makes slash turns. They ski with a forward, more race-inspired stance and drive their skis through their turns. A directional ski is one that supports or encourages this style of skiing.
I wouldn't know a slash turn if it bit me on the @rse and switch is something I use to turn on the lights. What is a good "Directional" ski for skiing mostly powder but also ok in bumps and corduroy?
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Poster: A snowHead
Bit of a weird distinction - you can make slash turns on a directional ski without being a jibmonkey - all it means is ability to release the tails and sliiiide which is useful in all sorts of situations not just for laffs e,g, bumps are very demanding on a ski where the tails are locked in.
But I think the blister definition is intended to identify are you are bit of an old skool carver or do you experiment with the wider smorgasbord of skiing?
Good all round directional ski - something like a Whitedot R98 trad. Though those particualr skis aren't so square that you can't drfit them nicely.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Gordyjh,
Quote:
I wouldn't know a slash turn if it bit me on the @rse and switch is something I use to turn on the lights
Although I do know what 'switch' means, I have no clue what a slash turn is, nor do I know what a 'jibmonkey' is.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Hurtle, losing your comprehension of plain English
Bit of a weird distinction - you can make slash turns on a directional ski without being a jibmonkey - all it means is ability to release the tails and sliiiide which is useful in all sorts of situations not just for laffs e,g, bumps are very demanding on a ski where the tails are locked in.
But I think the blister definition is intended to identify are you are bit of an old skool carver or do you experiment with the wider smorgasbord of skiing?
Good all round directional ski - something like a Whitedot R98 trad. Though those particualr skis aren't so square that you can't drfit them nicely.
@Dave of the Marmottes,
I know the words are English but they appear to be "not necessarily in the right order!"
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Hurtle,
After all it is free
After all it is free
Hurtle wrote:
@Gordyjh,
Quote:
I wouldn't know a slash turn if it bit me on the @rse and switch is something I use to turn on the lights
Although I do know what 'switch' means, I have no clue what a slash turn is, nor do I know what a 'jibmonkey' is.
To my understanding, it's when both skis are pivoted very quickly 90 degrees either to the left or the right to kick up an explosion of powder, then pivoted or flicked back 90 degrees to allow the skier to ski through the explosion and get plastered with snow and get a face shot.
Much like a hockey stop without the stop.
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I thought it was kind of a "power slide" - pivot into an exaggerated drift
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jedster wrote:
I thought it was kind of a "power slide" - pivot into an exaggerated drift
I think that is the more general use - Mike is describing a pow slash without the turn bit. Or for the traditionalists - kinda like a cloudburst drill.
Anything that involves your tails going sideways without tracking the path of the tips can be considered "slashy" I think. Now this might upset those who think skidding is a crime so maybe add a bit of deliberate action into the mix to distinguish a slash from a skid & maybe a bit more energy.
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The 2nd hand skis I bought this year turned out to have the bindings 55mm forward of recommended, they were ok to ski after getting used to them but the tails often felt "in the way" in the bumps.
A much better ski once I had put the bindings back to recommended.
The skis are Head Venturi 95s, the forerunner of the Kore series, 95mm underfoot but still have just a 16m turn radius, they don't exactly float in deeper snow with my 90+ kg on them but blaady hell do they carve! When you can feel the snow coming off your inside ski hitting your outside knee, you know that you've got them over. They blew my past negative experiences with with wider skis out of the water.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Now this might upset those who think skidding is a crime so maybe add a bit of deliberate action into the mix to distinguish a slash from a skid & maybe a bit more energy.
No good skier thinks that deliberate skidding is a crime, do they? It's one of the skills to blend in. It's all about intent.
Of course if you skid because you aren't ABLE to hold an edge that is a different issue
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
jedster wrote:
I thought it was kind of a "power slide" - pivot into an exaggerated drift
I think that is the more general use - Mike is describing a pow slash without the turn bit. Or for the traditionalists - kinda like a cloudburst drill.
Anything that involves your tails going sideways without tracking the path of the tips can be considered "slashy" I think. Now this might upset those who think skidding is a crime so maybe add a bit of deliberate action into the mix to distinguish a slash from a skid & maybe a bit more energy.
Ski geekery, love it!
For me a slash turn is about aggressively throwing the *tail* of the ski out to the side, or maybe into a wind lip, pocket of snow, etc, then back into line. It's the sort of turn surfers do off the lip (at the top) of a wave (not the long drawn out turn they do in the trough):
The powerslide/drift/slarve is different, and more drawn out.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@uktrailmonster, bit of thread resurrection here but just curious if you ever had that Atris base tune looked at? It did sound as if you might have had a railed ski or the like.
I am seriously considering the 2019 version as my next hefty touring ski and your experience seemed so far off that of all other reviews I have read that it has given me some pause for thought.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I had same feeling with Atris I thought I’d bought them too long at 189cm I felt they were a big mountain charging ski but at low speeds and in trees they were hard work. My new skis bent chetler 110s at 180cm are at the other end of the spectrum very light floaty super easy to pivot slash ride switch but they do feel short up front and at speed not so stable and I have felt I could go over the handlebars with them on occasion. The search for the perfect powder ski and perfect length goes on
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Poster: A snowHead
BobinCH wrote:
@uktrailmonster, i had the chance to try and became hooked. Now have 3 pairs! The new Alchemist construction is ace. Atris was also on my list but rented a (badly tuned) pair in Chamonix which put me off.
The DPS range is confusing and keeps changing all the time.
Directionnel skis with flex differently from tip to mounting point than from tail to mounting point. The kick in a directional ski giving it more acceleration and require a good amount of fitness to drive it at full tilt all day. These have been my preference until the last few years as I’ve become a “goldie” and just don’t get the time to get my legs in shape to get the full potential outta such skis. I’m now, oddly a “golden giblet” and have switched (pun intended) to a twin, still enough directional pop but I can just drag it outta the turn so easy when my legs come over all “blue suede shoes”. I went through a huge selection last year and think, the Nordica unleashed 108 and the Rossi Sender Free 110 are incredible skis. My skiing is still all about speed however I can complete a full day of hacking around the resort on and off the piste with “jnrzookeeper” no shakes.
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