 Poster: A snowHead
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@Haggis_Trap, The point I was trying to make was that over the last decade BASI has kowtowed to the French trade union and has not pursued legislative, governmental or court avenues to even try to improve working rights for 95% of its membership. As I showed they even gave up L3 working rights to further cement the pyramid structure that suits the current chairman and some of the management team.
Bobs manifesto reads to me as mainly a justification of why he did what he did back in the 90's. Little on what he wants to do going forward except maintain the status quo. I won't be voting for him but he may very well be a good chairman and I am delighted that we as members are in the happy position of having a wide range of very qualified candidates to choose from.
I advocate a vote for change and said clearly to consider Coral OR Simon but of course everyone should make up their own minds. I offer my opinion as a jobbing instructor who has worked throughout Europe due to my own efforts at understanding my working rights with my own association giving me little to no support. I would like that changed in the future.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ you (wrongly IMHO) assume BASI could have got a better deal from the French.
I certainly believe that taking French to EU courts would have been costly, expensive, futile and not in members interests.
as soon as BASI L3s can work in France then the locals might as well join BASI rather than ESF.
.... that is never going to happen.
| laundryman wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, you're very supportive of the EU, but also of a member nation's right to ignore EU rules. Does not compute. |
Has the euro test ever actually been found to be illegal under EU rules ?
Either way I think there is much more to BASI than just the "French" issue.....
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 18-03-16 22:42; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Haggis_Trap, wrong question. Try "is it always legal to insist on an ET for foreign instructors in France".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ ultimately the courts will eventually answer that question for you.
the specific issue of historic grandfather rights you allude to seems to be a very complex / grey-area.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
as soon as BASI L3s can work in France then the locals might as well join BASI rather than ESF.
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The ESF doesn't train and qualify instructors, the ENSA does, which is part of the French ministry of sport. It even has a senior civil servant to run it (who may not even know how to ski).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
as soon as BASI L3s can work in France then the locals might as well join BASI rather than ESF.
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As I said earlier L3 already COULD work in France after the 2000 agreement until we were stitched up by our current CEO to get some snowboard members their ISTD's through the Satolas "agreement". Be aware that around half of all ESF instructors working on the hill are at or lower than BASI L3 standard.
dont really want to argue with you, I only tried to answer your question about what BASI could do for L2/3 's. In my view they have done little to nothing for non L4 members over the last 17 years and in many ways have actively reduced our working rights. If you ever decide to try to use your license to teach in Europe hopefully the next chairman will help make it easier for you than I.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| If you ever decide to try to use your license to teach in Europe hopefully the next chairman will help make it easier for you than I. |
^ I have in the past.... : France is clearly not all of Europe.
Also don't want to get in futile argument : so lets agree to disagree.
To my mind some people are proposing to pick a battle with the French that I don't think BASI can win.
To my mind such (expensive) action is not actually in wider members interest - but I appreciate feelings are high and others believe differently.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 18-03-16 23:30; edited 1 time in total
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Curious , where did you work in Europe at L2?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ CH.
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That isn't Europe now is it  ... I do think the Swiss have a very good clear model for allowing foreign instructors to work in their country on a temp or full time basis. Have a look at http://www.skimottaret.com/resources/Swiss-summary.pdf
I dont feel the battle is with the French but rather they are the blockers for working rights within Europe but happy to agree to disagree. A good spirited debate is important during the elections ! lets keep the profile high and encourage more to vote !
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^ Switzerland is very clearly Europe (just not part of the EU).
They do have a great / clear / fair / sensible system.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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lol.. you got me on that one! I stand corrected and should have said EU not "Europe" touche well done
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@Haggis_Trap, once again you ignore everything that doesn't fit your agenda!
In Switzerland you do not need to hold any ski teaching qualification to be employed or employable.
So your L2 was nice to have but was not a necessity. As there is no professional standard in Switzerland the cert. was also (technically) not 'recognised'.
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You know it makes sense.
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The "I'm in the lifeboat Jacques" deal done by BASI does sound dodgy and ultimately indefensible. But could it be undone? If BASI decided to challenge the restrictive French (and other) practices properly the deal would be off? And all the grandfathers. Including SB, would have the same conditions as everybody else?
Shoulder to shoulder......
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| flangesax wrote: |
@Haggis_Trap, once again you ignore everything that doesn't fit your agenda!
In Switzerland you do not need to hold any ski teaching qualification to be employed or employable.
So your L2 was nice to have but was not a necessity. As there is no professional standard in Switzerland the cert. was also (technically) not 'recognised'. |
Nonsense. Skiing is also not regulated profession in UK - the nation that issues BASI qualifications.
So in theory you could teach on cairngorm with no certificates, but you would be uninsurable.
Certainly no ski school would employee you.
Similar situation to CH, though without BASI qual I doubt you would get job or work visa.
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/employment-switzerland.aspx
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Poster: A snowHead
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Genuine question. What working rights do L2 and L3 from other nations have in France, Italy CH or Austria ?
I dont think an NZSKI, CASI (canadian), PSIA (american) or swedish qual will open any doors that BASI certs dont ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some other nationalities wouldn't have ready access anyway because of immigration conditions. Nobody has claimed that French restrictions are "anti British" specifically, have they?
They are not discriminatory at all in one sense; anybody who can pass the tests can do the job. The question is whether the tests are relevant, I suppose, or designed to keep people out.
Are there any British owned ski schools in Austria or Italy?
The fundamental problem is that there is an oversupply of people adequately qualified to teach skiing at the level required by the vast majority of holiday skiers, especially as many of them don't want to take lessons anyway. It's hard to see what any trade association can do about that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ very valid points
... my point is that BASI L2/L3 is just as accepted as any other qualification at that level.
Those complaining about rights of British instructors should consider that French + Italians need to do a strict timed race test just to be accepted on their own training schemes. Hence the reason that many Italians are now doing BASI (... because they couldn't even get accepted on their own scheme).
I accept the alpine nations have systems that are very tough, which in return allows people to make a career ski teaching.
However (IMHO) its a step too far to expect BASI to change it from the outside.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Coral seems to have a good CV / highly thought of / nice person.
However she is not a ski instructor... |
According to this from the 2009 contest for Legal Director she certainly has been
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| I am a BASI 2 Instructor who is enthusiastic about teaching on both snow and artificial surfaces and have a passion for skiing whenever and wherever I can. As a part time Instructor I am sensitive to the challenges that face those who cannot make snowsport their full time career and so I would also be keen to reflect that element of the membership. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Indeed I used to work with Coral at Braehead, regular at staff training etc. and a very empathetic instructor.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Genuine question. What working rights do L2 and L3 from other nations have in France, Italy CH or Austria ? |
There are different regulations for EU nationals and non-EU nationals. Access to the single EU market is for EU nationals, if you are a non-EU national the EU states do not have to grant working rights.
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| Ski lots wrote: |
| I'm acquainted with some of the candidates. Bob clearly has a wide range of experience and with the industry in his heart. I have some sympathy with Simon, but voting for him I fear will plunge the organisation in to a schism, which we may not ever recover from. Coral is a sensible caring, intelligent, professional person with a refreshing approach with the right experience, all of which we can benefit from. IMHO BASI will benefit if everyone gets behind Coral and shoves the old guard and the vested interests out of the way. At the end of the day Coral is a very decent person with impeccable integrity and she is nice with it. That's where my vote is going. |
I'd agree with almost all of that. I do wonder where Coral's allegiances lie; bearing in mind her proposer. I'm just not sure she is the right person to tackle the many issues but did give serious consideration to giving my vote to Coral.
In an ideal world I would actually have liked an independent to run for the post but that's not an option this time round.
Jim Lister shot himself in the foot on multiple points which showed a lack of insight and understanding.
There is only one clear candidate for me who is able to deal with the multitude of issues - Bob.
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| olderscot wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Coral seems to have a good CV / highly thought of / nice person.
However she is not a ski instructor... |
According to this from the 2009 contest for Legal Director she certainly has been
| Quote: |
| I am a BASI 2 Instructor who is enthusiastic about teaching on both snow and artificial surfaces and have a passion for skiing whenever and wherever I can. As a part time Instructor I am sensitive to the challenges that face those who cannot make snowsport their full time career and so I would also be keen to reflect that element of the membership. |
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From memory she also has an IVSI badge.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ very valid points
... my point is that BASI L2/L3 is just as accepted as any other qualification at that level.
Those complaining about rights of British instructors should consider that French + Italians need to do a strict timed race test just to be accepted on their own training schemes. Hence the reason that many Italians are now doing BASI (... because they couldn't even get accepted on their own scheme).
I accept the alpine nations have systems that are very tough, which in return allows people to make a career ski teaching.
However (IMHO) its a step too far to expect BASI to change it from the outside. |
I don't think BASI should try to change it too much. What they need to do is ensure a qualification that is accepted elsewhere is accepted in France as well.
BASI instructors, as you know, can work on piste from L2 upwards. They need to demonstrate for example that an L2 is pefectly safe to work on piste within a ski school environment. If they can't then the problem is BASI's not the other nations. It shouldn't be hard to do so as it's accepted everywhere else.
A L2 is not the same as a full cert - fact. Therefore limit their use to the remit of their qualification.
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^ Agree.
| olderscot wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Coral seems to have a good CV / highly thought of / nice person.
However she is not a ski instructor... |
According to this from the 2009 contest for Legal Director she certainly has been
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With all due respect : she is a lawyer who teaches skiing part-time.
Much like I am an engineer who teaches skiing part-time.
Nothing wrong with that and I am sure she is an excellent enthusiastic teacher.
For most people the reality is ski teaching will only ever be a seasonal job they do primarily for fun (no shame in that).
However if we want BASI to be respected at the international table by alpine nations then a chairperson who has worked full-time at very highest level is more appropriate (IMHO).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
If we want BASI to be respected at the international table then someone who has worked full-time at highest level is more appropriate (IMHO).
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Well there I'd disagree with you. I think if BASi want to be respected at the international table then it would be the quality of it's instructors and the strength of the organisation in representing them that would count. Surely the leader of the organisation should be measured on how well they can achieve that rather than whether they're a full time ski instructor or not?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Haggis_Trap,
"Although in the past, the authorities in some Cantons have been relaxed about qualifications and have permitted people to teach after 5 days of in-house training, this option is quickly diminishing."
So you don't need a qualification but BASI would love you to have one.
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^ Let me finish that paragraph for you flangesax- nice selective edit 
"Most ski schools now insist on employing qualified instructors from a recognised governing body such as BASI or its Swiss counterpart, Swiss Snowsports. However, the good news is that BASI's Level 2 Instructor (formerly Grade 3) qualification is accepted."
| Quote: |
| ... then it would be the quality of it's instructors and the strength of the organisation in representing them that would count. |
@olderscot - yip, that too.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Haggis_Trap, nah... the selective edit would have been
| Quote: |
Cantons have been relaxed about qualifications and have permitted people to teach after 5 days of in-house training
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I went for the fuller one which still supports...
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So you don't need a qualification but BASI would love you to have one.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
Are there any British owned ski schools in Austria or Italy |
I hear rumours of a Brit ski School setting up in St Anton next season. Approx 20 instructors so probably a mix of L 2,3 & 4's?
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Poster: A snowHead
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There are a few BASI training centres in Austria.
I don't know of any Brit ski schools within Ski Amadé.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@flangesax. I very much doubt you would get a job or work permit in CH these days without a BASI L2 or above ?
Yes : Skiing is not a regulated profession in Switzerland (much like the UK) however having an appropriate certificate will still open doors with ski schools.
So you are clearly making a moot point.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@flangesax, you need a residence permit over 90 days though...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Here is a summary of working rights in CH. Odd that this information is not on the BASI site yet I managed to dig up the information and sent it to BASI. Wouldn't be useful to have simple clear instructions on where and for how long you can work in EU countries... Another small example of a lack of help for BASI L2 and L3's... http://www.skimottaret.com/resources/Swiss-summary.pdf
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@under a new name, as you technically do in all EU countries if you are there more than 90 days.
@Haggis_Trap, you are quite right, it's a trolling moot point. I consider it a pretty important point.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| Here is a summary of working rights in CH. Odd that this information is not on the BASI site yet I managed to dig up the information and sent it to BASI. Wouldn't be useful to have simple clear instructions on where and for how long you can work in EU countries... Another small example of a lack of help for BASI L2 and L3's... http://www.skimottaret.com/resources/Swiss-summary.pdf |
^ That information is not what you think it is (and thus misleading in way you presented it)
The table on your web site is specifically for off piste skiing (with UIAGM mountain guide or ski instructor)
In 2013 "high risk" activities recently became regulated in CH.
Off piste skiing is one of those outdoor activities (along with rafting, climbing etc) that became regulated.
However : piste skiing and ski instruction is not a regulated activity in CH (like the UK and most of non alpine world).
The argument being that the lift company and ski patrol take responsibility for safety inside the ski area.
In CH only patente (L4) can go off piste with clients.
And even then the terrain (<39 degree) and avalanche risk levels (<3) under which they can work are strictly defined.
BASI have the info on their site here
http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/Communique%20to%20Members%20about%20Changes%20to%20the%20Law%20for%20Swiss%20Registration%20-%20Nov%202013.pdf
Further reading here
http://freeride-verbier.com/blog/new-off-piste-law/
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 29-03-16 17:41; edited 1 time in total
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| flangesax wrote: |
@Haggis_Trap, you are quite right, it's a trolling moot point. I consider it a pretty important point. |
you can get a list here of nations where ski teaching is a regulated profession below : page 8.
The UK and CH are like the majority of nations : where ski teaching is unregulated by law.
In France (and a few other nations) the situation is different and the required qualifications are defined in law.
http://ec.europa.eu/sport/library/documents/ski-instructor-report_en.pdf
Even in nations where skiing is unregulated (like UK) you would be unlikely to get a ski school job, or insurance, without an appropriate qualification.
If you were unqualified and involved in an accident then you could still leave yourself open to legal action.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't think Surf teaching is a regulated profession in Austria. 
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Incorrect : ... you still need to apply for a work permit (however there is no quota / limit for EU nationals).
Ski instructors may need to provide their paper work and qualifications depending on canton.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/work-permits/29191706
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FAQ
