 Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @T Bar, with correct technique moguls are not necessarily hard on your knees, provided adequate flexibility and no existing joint damage... |
Probably my stamina and technique, but I blame my knees. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| The statistics are very clear - I'm surprised that anybody would query that. |
What I take issue with is your word "elite". At the time my family took our first skiing holidays (mid 60s) we live in a very ordinary bungalow in a dull suburb and my mother self-catered for us on a gas burner in the hotel bedroom, a fascinating fire-hazard that I'm sure would have had us thrown out into the snow if the hotel ever found out. I can't say I felt part of an "elite" at that point of my life. My father just really wanted to try skiing.
Does anyone remember "Whatever happened to the Likely Lads" (and how we laughed)? By that point (mid-70s) a skiing holiday was a plausible plot line excursion for Bob, who was aspirational but certainly not "elite".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Doesn't have to be drills, just skiing well and to your limit. Cleanly carved turns on a steep blue run, good short radius turns down the fall line on a red, narrow corridor run at speed down a black can all challenge good skiers. Skiing on piste doesn't have to be unchallenging. |
Different sorts of challenges. You can challenge yourself; you can be challenged by the mountain. I wouldn't want all my skiing to be down 6' high moguls; nor would I want all my skiing to be on greens where only going backwards on one leg takes it to the same level of danger as the 6' high moguls.
It's all about variety, isn't it? I certainly enjoy being challenged by nature more than being challenged by myself.
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I'd like to think that resorts provide the skiing that their punters want, but I'm more cynical than that. Widely available in-bounds tough skiing would undermine the lucrative guiding market. And some influential ski writers - Peter Hardy of the Telegraph and Where to Ski and Snowboard, for example - strongly criticise resorts that dare to leave runs ungroomed. Maybe good press counts for more than happy skiers.
I always check before booking somewhere new. If a resort has no itineraries or runs advertised as ungroomed, I go elsewhere. Maybe some resorts make the mistake of providing what their existing customers want instead of trying to broaden their appeal.
If you can afford it, North America is the place to go for real black runs.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
In a way, this is part of the point I am trying to make, a black run should be a difficult advanced / experts run and if a cautious skier sees the sign for a black run, they know to avoid it, by this, I do not mean leave all the "black " runs in the resort to go natural, but if a "black" run is pisted regularly, then it should be regraded as a red or the unpisted blacks should be graded as black "star" or something to that effect |
If a black run is NOT pisted regularly, then by definition it is not a "Piste" and should not be shown as such on the piste map. Simples 
Ungroomed runs are normally shown as "itineraries", and unfortunately, are not usually graded, so you don't know how hard it will be unless you know somebody who has been down it.
And just because it may be pisted does not mean it should be regraded as a red.
As an intermediate skier, I expect to be able to ski pretty well any red reasonably comfortably. If somebody of my level would struggle with it, then it should be a b lack, whether pisted or not.
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| Quote: |
If a black run is NOT pisted regularly, then by definition it is not a "Piste" and should not be shown as such on the piste map.
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Mmm I think they were called pistes well before piste bashers appeared
If they were called groomers it does not mean they are the sole preserve of predatory paedophiles or if they are bashed it does not make them a de rigeur hangout for footpads.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| The statistics are very clear - I'm surprised that anybody would query that. |
What I take issue with is your word "elite". At the time my family took our first skiing holidays (mid 60s) we live in a very ordinary bungalow in a dull suburb and my mother self-catered for us on a gas burner in the hotel bedroom, a fascinating fire-hazard that I'm sure would have had us thrown out into the snow if the hotel ever found out. I can't say I felt part of an "elite" at that point of my life. My father just really wanted to try skiing.
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You might not have felt part of an elite, but in the 60's you certainly were very unsual if your family could afford a foreign holiday, and even more so if you could afford a ski holiday.
| Quote: |
Does anyone remember "Whatever happened to the Likely Lads" (and how we laughed)? By that point (mid-70s) a skiing holiday was a plausible plot line excursion for Bob, who was aspirational but certainly not "elite". |
It was really in the early 70's that package holidays took off and when working class people first started to be able to afford such trips in reasonable numbers. Although I believe it was 1965 was the first year 1 million Brits travelled abroad - which was still only 1/60 of us.
Nowadays, I believe the number is more like 20 million, with somewhere in the region of 2 million ski trips.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think the mountains are probably as steep as ever and the runs get cut up as they always did Modern skis have made it easier and getting to the bottom of a slope and saying 'That was steep and difficult' is a bit like standing in the bar later and declaring you have a small pint so we've created this culture where skiing is easier than it was.
Pretty much every male dominated sport is the same where we harp on back to the glory days. Back in the 80s, the old timers harped on about the real skiing in the 50s...
I think the Monty Python sketch quoted earlier on this thread pretty much says it all.
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Another "black runs are so easy" debate here... How many of those, for who groomed black runs are too easy, are able to properly ski down the perfectly prepared black run? And properly I mean nice carving turns, not sliding 10m down after end of every turn? Probably not more then one, or you guys are hiding very well, as I don't see really many such skiers when out skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In my experience, it all depends on the resort and their philosophy. Portes du Soleil for instance (Avoriaz, Morzine) has a lot of almost never groomed blacks that are quite challenging (swiss wall, arete des intrets, combette.) Most are steep and have moguls most of the time (unless after large snow dumps.) Combette is also pretty narrow and hard to find (thus ensuring there's hardly anyone on it.) On top of that, the resort has a number of "snowcross" which are never groomed. They range from moderately difficult red and blue runs (canyon du pschott) to long steep blacks (crozats - probably one of the best black runs in the region, at times similar to an off-piste experience.)
3 Vallees on the other hand is trying to attract more people and they believe in more relaxing skiing so it is mostly an easier resort. The majority of the 3 Vallees customers are not great skiers but they want to feel good so there's a lot of easy runs when you can go fast. Having said that there are a couple of challenging runs that are hardly ever groomed (Grand Couloir, Jean Blanc in Courchevel, Face, Bosses in Meribel to name a few)
Other resorts that spring to mind is Les Arcs (L'Aiguille Rouge, Ours.)
As mentioned above, Tunnel in Alpe d'Huez is not an easy run (which leads to annoying queues at the start as people tend to overestimate their ability and then are frozen in fear when they realize the start is narrow and steep.)
To summarize, there are challenging black runs still in most resorts. You just need to do some research (ask the locals, ask here, etc.) to find them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jogi wrote: |
| Another "black runs are so easy" debate here... How many of those, for who groomed black runs are too easy, are able to properly ski down the perfectly prepared black run? And properly I mean nice carving turns, not sliding 10m down after end of every turn? Probably not more then one, or you guys are hiding very well, as I don't see really many such skiers when out skiing. |
I suspect that very many people here can ski down said runs under perfect control, both having fun and being safe. Sure, a skiing snob may criticise their style, and their skill level may prevent them from tackling more serious slopes. But that's no reason to sneer - after all, recreational skiing is primarily about enjoying yourself.
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I think that the resorts mentioned though are fairly easy skiing mainly used by beginners , why they mark an easy slope black does puzzle me, but I am sure that has to do with conditions, ie if there is hard packed ice what is an easy run with fresh snow with soft moguls becomes very difficult for some. That same slope not groomed then allowed to ice up becomes a downright difficult run, but when the sun softens it it reverts back to easy. I did one myself last year that was lovely after new snow, it was steep and it had snowed ( alot )after it was groomed, while the run was steep most of the way and downright straight in places, we wondered at it's being called a black, it was a doddle. however the volume of skiers turned that snow into bumbs of a good size by evening and it was fun, by the end of the week though we had sunshine most days and it was complete ice in the morning so the difficulty level went well up, with hardly anyone skiing it. ( it was one fast ride down with it was icy)
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Quite a few people in this thread should get on the Caledonian Sleeper and head Northwards! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Plenty of challenges these days. Just go off-piste, it never gets groomed:)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
If a black run is NOT pisted regularly, then by definition it is not a "Piste" and should not be shown as such on the piste map. Simples
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@alex_heney, this was irony, wasn't it? "piste" = track = trail. Marked, controlled, secured. Not necessarily groomed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is it not possible that like all major sports/pastimes that people over time have just overall gotten better? With better, lower cost equipment, better technique, increased levels of physical ability that has helped do this.
More accessible to a wider range of people, therefore a large pool of better skiiers? More opportunity to view professionals on video/TV - learning and improving from observing others is something that is normally not thought of but is a huge help consciously or subconciously.
For example before I ever took a lesson aged 12 circa year 2000 - I had seen on TV what skiing was "supposed" to look like and after a holiday began to mimic things I had seen.
Mountains have been modified in some places, but to suggest there are no black pistes anymore just suggests to me that you need more of a challenge (possibly off-piste) because with time and more skiing you have improved to be able to deal with all black pistes.
Maybe Europe should adopt the North American method of piste grading, maybe using Double Black Diamond for Black Itineraries (ungroomed pistes/trails)? Thus distinguishing them from there groomed friends
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 25-02-15 9:56; edited 2 times in total
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Quote: |
If a black run is NOT pisted regularly, then by definition it is not a "Piste" and should not be shown as such on the piste map. Simples
Ungroomed runs are normally shown as "itineraries", and unfortunately, are not usually graded, so you don't know how hard it will be unless you know somebody who has been down it.
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You obviously have not been skiing very long!, It is this "I'm not a very good skier but I still want to be able to ski every run/piste/trail on the mountain" attitude that has ruined many a good ski resort that used to have something for everyone and rather than 5% of the resort runs being for the 5% of the best skiers, 100% of the resort is dictated to by the 95% of other skiers,
you need to check out rule 5  |
Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of actually reading what I wrote?
Because your response has pretty well nothing to do with it.
I most certainly do NOT have the attitude you suggest, and I have no idea how you could have managed to read my post as showing such. |
You are a bit wrong though. 'Piste' is just french for route or track. The word has been mangled into English with 'piste bashed' . So if a black run isn't 'pisted', as you say, regularly by definition it is still a piste as long as it is a marked routed. There are many blacks that are never 'groomed' as they are deliberate mogul runs, or just left to their own devices.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd normally expect a piste to be pisted and a ski route to be unpisted though not always. I'd agree with RobRar earlier though that the fun and challenge comes as much as what you do with a slope as the slope itself so carving a blue behind a pro would be my most fun run this season. My favourite day was when the runs had been left unpisted after snow but the rest of the group who ski occaisionally did not enjoy it so I can see both sides. Resorts will naturally cater for what the majority want and I don't have a problem with them considering what the majority want rather than what I want. They are also paying for the lift pass. There are still resorts that have unpisted runs and ski routes so you can choose these resorts.
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| Quote: |
Maybe Europe should adopt the North American method of piste grading
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Not necessary. Existing grading works perfectly well.
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Don't forget either, that just 'cos they're pisted they don't necessarily stay that way. Especially after a big dump of soft wet snow, or later in the spring when it's all gone slushy - try skiing the 2-4pm slot in a semi-busy resort in those conditions and even the most innocent blue becomes awkward and the majority of reds+ damn difficult.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Quote: |
Maybe Europe should adopt the North American method of piste grading
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Not necessary. Existing grading works perfectly well. |
Well you say that but unless prior research or previous experience is gained, then before I set off down a black run I will have little idea whether is groomed or not - playing devils advocate here but, what if I was good enough to ski groomed black pistes, yet struggle on ungroomed, mogulled pistes that are almost technically off-piste except for the fact they are marked routes that are avi controlled? Some ski resorts are good at marking piste entrances with warning signs alerting me of hazards/gradient but this is not all.
Personally, I dont mind ungroomed reasonably smooth slopes, can be steep don't mind - I don't enjoys moguls, as they hurt my knees/technique run outs.
Double black diamond might distinguish between the two types and perhaps help people choose resorts before arriving in order to ski such pistes or to avoid such places.
Just a thought - in general I'm happy with EU grading. Tbh every resort/country has different ideas with grading and it is more something I take with a pinch of salt.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| iSnowhead wrote: |
| Don't forget either, that just 'cos they're pisted they don't necessarily stay that way. Especially after a big dump of soft wet snow, or later in the spring when it's all gone slushy - try skiing the 2-4pm slot in a semi-busy resort in those conditions and even the most innocent blue becomes awkward and the majority of reds+ damn difficult. |
And the deserted blacks become easier in my experience - slow, wet snow that is not chopped up because less people ski them.
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
| The issue is that andorra and the sella ronda is some of the least challenging skiing in Europe. |
If by Andorra you mean Grandvalira - note that Andorra has three separate alpine ski areas - then that statement holds up if you're talking relative to the size of the resort, which is large with many mellow areas. (Though the statement as given is a bit of a lazy generalization; Grandvalira has four or five blacks which are worthy of the colour. I can think of many - though smaller - resorts which don't have as many. And as someone else already pointed out, they host a World Cup downhill which frankly I doubt is a 1980s blue despite the fact that it gets bashed daily.)
Elsewhere in Andorra, the reds in Pal (part of Vallnord) are genuine reds, as are the blacks in Arcalís, which hosted one of the five stages of the Freeride World Tour this year, so although it's a minor resort in terms of piste skiing it punches above its weight for off-piste. The fact that nobody seems to believe that there's anything challenging in Andorra simply means that the interesting stuff remains empty, and mid-week it's possible to be lapping it alone!
| Quote: |
| On one run in andorra we pootled down it hopping off the odd bump, only to realise at the bottom it was graded black. |
Yes, really that piste is blue! But as somebody already pointed out, different countries have different approaches to colour grading. In Spain and Andorra, pistes are sometimes marked black simply because of wanting to keep waverers off them. The piste you're talking about (which I'll wager is Mirador in Grau Roig [Grandvalira]) is merely a hard blue in terms of steepness, and for example Luis Arias in Baqueira is really a red, not black. But in the former case, the piste is a bottleneck and they want to spread people across to the red and blue instead of having everyone piling straight down the black which is the most natural route to take. And in the latter case, there's a very exposed, high and steep drop all the way down the right-hand side and they want to deter intermediates who might make a mistake and lurch over it. Of course, being able to advertize a higher number of blacks is also beneficial to the resort, but that kind of marketing goes on everywhere; in France it's often the reverse, with hard areas claiming to have greens/blues which should actually be blues/reds etc - which I imagine can be pretty dangerous.
By the way, when going down that piste in Grandvalira, you'll have seen the Riberal black on the other side of the valley, which is a FIS World Cup Speed Skiing piste. Something of a contrast!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 25-02-15 14:05; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So the summary of three pages is probably:
1. Some people like to ski ungroomed blacka and some don't - it is good that most resorts offer a mixture
2. It would be helpful if resorts were diligent about marking that runs are ungroomed at the top if it is not obvious from the lift
Personally I really like resorts to leave a couple of bump runs but I'm happy if these are "safe" off piste under chairs either in avi controlled bowls or without overhanging snow slopes. If that is not practical then leaving one or two blacks mostly unpisted seems reasonable.
But my experience is that almost all resorts do actually do this so I don't see a big problem?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agreed - just passing the time really.
One issue though is that if it's an "expert run", then you can't legitimately bitch about experts riding it quickly. It's a bit like the laned-out section of a swimming pool: you know people are pounding up and down there, so it's probably not a great idea to doggy-paddle across the lane in front of them.
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| Quote: |
So the summary of three pages is probably:
1. Some people like to ski ungroomed blacka and some don't - it is good that most resorts offer a mixture
2. It would be helpful if resorts were diligent about marking that runs are ungroomed at the top if it is not obvious from the lift
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Les Arcs marks the ungroomed pistes on the piste map as Natur. A very good idea. One of the best and longest bump runs, Combourcier is not marked as such. Personally I expect any black run to be unbashed and am very disappointment if it is. It is very disappointing to head for a run expecting to be able to practice your moguls (which many of us enjoy) only to find it is as smooth as a baby's bottom. Perhaps @jedster's, suggestion should be if the black has been bashed then a sign at the top should say so. Or perhaps an update on the resort web should tell us what has been done over the last few days.
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You know it makes sense.
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@tangowaggon, to post saying where have all the black runs gone you must be a right w*****, there are so many around. Clearly think you're too good for piste runs? again shows signs of a w*****
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Useful contribution there, thanks @GO1996. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Red Leon, hardly a troll just not up myself like this guy...its one of the worst post's i've ever seen its just laughable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, and the point of the forum is to say what you think and that's exactly how I feel about 'tangowaggon'
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Whats everyones thoughts on this?
Devils Advocate again people.
The grooming of pistes means that the black runs can be opened earlier in the season and be open later in season than if they are left to be natural therefore filling in/melting naturally leaving patches,exposed rocks etc.....
Surely having more black/tricky pistes to ski/ride is better than having less or none at all dependant on prevailing conditions?
To go further than that - - -
Grooming is the Saviour of the modern day ski resort! - where global warming and seemingly less yearly snowfall means that artificial snow and grooming means that resorts can open just as early if not earlier and close just as late if not later keeping pistes skiable through seemingly summer like conditions
And also in great condtion during very Snowy and very cold spells also.
(TIN HAT ON)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@johnE, but for guaranteed ungroomed you just head for the black naturides...
I like groomed blacks!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@GO1996, it's about playing the ball, not the man. People usually resort to ad hominem insults when they have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion, which has been an interesting one, with lots of points of view being expressed in a rational fashion.
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@GO1996, take a chill pill. have you actually read his post? it's perfectly reasonable IMO. sorry if that also makes me a w*****
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| AthersT wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| Quote: |
Maybe Europe should adopt the North American method of piste grading
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Not necessary. Existing grading works perfectly well. |
Well you say that but unless prior research or previous experience is gained, then before I set off down a black run I will have little idea whether is groomed or not... |
North American practice helps in three ways.
First, the seriously tough slopes are identified by the presence of a second black diamond. The uplift in difficulty between a single and double black is normally very severe - many intermediates would be comfortable on a single black but would be terrified on a double vlack.
Second, most resorts publish a grooming map each day. That allows lower intermediate skiers who enjoy bumps but not steeps to have some fun. Some blue runs and single black runs may be groomed only infrequently, but there will always be an alternative groomed run from the same chair. Skiers who are uncomfortable with bumps can simply wait a day or two and the run will be groomed for their pleasure.
Finally, all resorts in North America are well staffed with helpful ski patrollers whose role in life is to let you know which runs are in good condition on a particular day. Scare of ice? Dislike soft snow? Intimdated by bumps? Worried about thin cover? Ask the patrollers and they'll tell you which runs to avoid.
It's a great system.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Jonny Jones,
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The uplift in difficulty between a single and double black is normally very severe
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I know you have skied in NA a lot more than I have but i am always very sceptical about this kind of statement. There is a continuum of difficulty in most places for most ski runs and not a large stepwise change.
My own experience of NA runs which is limited is that some double black diamonds are fairly sever but some are relatively straight forward its just that the range of skiing within the grade is quite wide.
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@Jonny Jones, it may be a great system for America but Europe is different. I don't know about everyone but I'd guess many people are like me and my friends. We don't choose runs, we choose a route. For instance on the Birthday Bash one day would be Sella Ronda (green or orange), one day Ortesei, one Hidden Valley and Cinque Torre etc. Routes are routes and there's no is-it-isn't-it groomed or not. It's just the way we're going and it's skied with pleasure or trepidation. And a sense of achievement if the latter - so pleasure in a different way!
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FAQ
