This is a bit of an oddity for me as I almost never disagree with @rob@rar and 99 times out of 100 I would suggest lessons and only lessons. So I'm going to restate this and then butt out.
For almost everyone forward lean/binding delta is princess and the pea type stuff. For a minority it is transformative. Large calves and poor dorsiflexion is a good candidate for putting you in the latter category. The OP clearly has both of those things (hence the heel lift) and is nowhere near a nice balanced stance in either of his photos. Yes, skiing is dynamic but I'll come onto that in a moment.
The too much f/l and no remaining ankle flex issue will produce skiing similar to that shown in the OP's videos as the combination of excessive forward lean dumps the skier in the backseat and the lack of dorsiflexion prevents the skier from flexing the boot during the during the turn. Hence the squatty and skiddy turns. In order ski effectively, the skier needs to make movements that are impossible for them or are much harder than for a skier who isn't physiologically compromised. They can't pressure the cuff and they will find it extremely difficult to centre the hips over the feet during the turn as doing so will bring them out of balance. If you are in that bracket then you will derive only marginal improvement from lessons as the plastic round your legs stops you doing what you need to do.
I mention this as my physiology is very similar to that of the OP and everything he describes was largely fixed for me by making the boot more upright. Obviously that didn't make me an expert, it just put me in the same ballpark as everyone else. Given the similarity it is worth at least exploring boots as the cost is low and it is an easy fix. Try it. Put a shim down the back of your boots and go ski. See what happens.
@gorilla, that all sounds very good. I think I agree, but the other big factor here is that Designer156 is a skier on the start of his skiing journey, and as such he will be almost certainly, sitting back too far because, well, that is what people new to this sport usually do.
I am interested by the idea that anyone can be 'too forward'. I find that it is very difficult to fall over the front of my skis, and more tip pressure is often far better then less. I suppose it is all a matter of degree, but the OPs first post photo appears to have knee over toe - but it is impossible to tell how loaded the cuff is, and how much further it could go - he did comment about not having fully tightened buckles though.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@lampbus, you can definitely be too far forward. Your weight should be more or less over the middle of the ski, which distributes pressure nice and evenly across the edge when the ski is edged, and also facilitates pivoting when the ski is flattened to make a turn.
The reason that it's often thought that forward lean is good, is that when you're a beginner, the natural mistake is to lean too far back (often out of fear); hence, instructors are often heard telling their clients to lean forwards. If a good skier were to lean forward as much as he/she could, they'd struggle to make decent turns.
Tell you what though that KenX doesn't mess about does he? As soon as someone posts a pic of themselves in their pink pants he tells em to drop 'em.
Could binding position also be a problem - too far fore / aft?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I suggest the following: remove the rear spolier so you are standing more upright. I have calves the same size as you, and just by doing that, it made a difference.
The second point - and one that gave me an "aha" moment in skiing, was flexing at the ankles. This is an area that most intermediates don't quite grasp, but it makes all the difference. If you can have presure on the tounges of the boots (from ankle flex), your COM will be over the middle of the ski, and not on the tails...
Calf stretching is also important, as once you start to flex your ankles, your calves wil feel it if you are tight in that area.
I read once here: ankles flexed, thighs high. if your quads are enganged all the time, you won't last more than an hour. So bend first at the ankles, then knees.
One of our sons posture was a little like pos1. It corrected itself as soon as he started to wear a back protector - it just makes him stand better.
I have used a back protector for both skiing and boarding for about 4 seasons now, and my posture is tons better too.
I would not say get a back protector to fix your posture - get one to protect your back, but the other 2 unintended benefits are i) it keeps you nice and warm ii) better posture.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Is that because back-protectors make you tilt your hips forward to create a hollow back?
After all it is free
After all it is free
I was also for many years (despite marathon training at the time) a big thigh burn-out sufferer. One of the best bits of advice I have ever had was ski like you have a $100 note stuck up your behind-automatic lifts your entire posture (so they tell me).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I had similar issues until I started doing a specific excercise 2 months prior to any skiing trip. Thigh burn being the main issue, just above knees. I discovered this type of single leg excercise with one addition, keep your heel off the floor while doing it. It works like a miracle for me. My stance got better when I have the correct muscle in good shape, and my skiing got a lot better when I don't have the need to compromise technique due to muscle fatique. I tried many different excercises but they never tortured the right part of my legs. This one does. Do it daily for 30 days, increasing the repeats, and you will notice a huge difference. Then the problem will be your boredom when waiting for your knackered friends
@Lilledonmarco, by calf stretching, do you mean doing calf raises too ? After my ACL surgery, the physio had me doing lots of calf raises (and lots of other leg work) but doing them 'correctly' off a step or block, not just from flat, in order to encourage the forward lean of my shins.
I still do them lots and I think my skiing is helped - I ski flexed and supporting myself without needing to lean on the front of my boot. I can tell I am resting on the boot when sometimes my socks rub. I do tighten my boot upper buckles and strap 'to 11' when I come across a bit more challenging stuff as I find it gives me more control, but I am not sure if this is due to lateral control of the ski (roll). It seems to reduce the whole ski flapping fore-aft (pitch) but that could also be down to loading the front better and thus controlling the ski flex.
Calf raises can be done on a step (with a backpack full of stuff) or at the gym - I use the leg press thingy alternating with deep squat presses and calf raises off the bottom edge of the footplate. I also do them off to the side, but I don't know if this is recommended practice - be careful out there.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I have had very similar issues to the OP. Biggish calves and relatively small feet tipped me too far forward, when combined with binding ramp angle, which pushed my bum out into a backseat position to attain balance. After a few years of burning thighs I eventually solved the problem by putting shims under the toe binding. This has transformed my skiing. If you have this issue try it out by adopting the pink pants position at the beginning of this thread with a slim magazine under the toes of your boots. When you've got the right amount of packing under your toes your thighs should be pretty vertical and your weight will be supported by your skeleton rather than your tensed quads.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Sincere apologies for not checking back on this thread for a while - didn't realise you guys were still posting.
So much good advice on here. I really appreciate it.
I'm off to Meribel in the morning. I have a week of group lessons booked with Parallel Lines. I'm there with my eight year old daughter (in beginner lessons) so I'm going to have the luxury of being able to take my time and focus on technique without trying to 'keep up with the boys'.
So I'm a going to try and take note of all the stance advice - flex those ankles, get the pelvis forward etc. if after trying that for a week, in addition to the lessons, I don't notice much improvement I'll get back to a boot fitter and see if we can't get these boots a little more upright. I'm returning to Meribel with the boys early March so will be a great opportunity to compare before and after.
In the meantime I'll also get some better video recorded this week which might provide some better insight.
Thank you all so much again.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Designer156, well, we generally only stop posting when we are actually on a bash ... and then we are 'posting' with other snowheads in a bar or stube somewhere.
Hope you have a great ski trip !
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
This may seem an extreme measure - but if you do a lot of cycling your calf muscle migrates north. Cost me a pair of Atomic race boots when it happened to me!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
lampbus wrote:
@Designer156, well, we generally only stop posting when we are actually on a bash ... and then we are 'posting' with other snowheads in a bar or stube somewhere.
Hope you have a great ski trip !
Or, we generally only stop posting when all avenues have been exhausted. And, sometimes, not even then
Have a good trip and do please update this thread with your findings.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Designer156 wrote:
Sincere apologies for not checking back on this thread for a while - didn't realise you guys were still posting.
it's actually been a lesson for us all - if you want your question answered, open the thread with a photo of you wearing pink pants.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The question is if you can keep your femurs more vertical while skiing. Open your cuffs if you must to see the range of motion accessible in boots undone and done up. If your can't keep your femurs straighter than it's probably an equipment issue. But likewise it can be purely a matter of technique and can be resolved with some drills.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
3 pages in and lots of people blaming lots of things for the pain in the quads
1 with a calf muscle of that size the OP WILL be getting pushed forward too far, which WILL cause him to drop into the back seat to compensate...fix one, make cuff of boot more flared at the rear to accommodate calf muscle alos need to consider ankle joint ROM and if the heel lift is adding to or helping with the problem, it WILL open the ankle joint, but equally will shift body position
2 if the OP owns his own skis then looking at binding delta is an option, if renting then trying to find a flatter set up will help a bit
3 there are some fairly typical "5 week skier" traits going on so a couple of lessons would certainly help
4 not sure what flex the boot is BUT i think it may be a 90 or 100, if so possibly a little too soft for the body weight of the skier...i don't know his body weight BTW but just looking at the pictures /video he may need a stiffer boot if fix 1,2 and 3 doesn't solve things completely
After all it is free
After all it is free
Think I've just found the rear view of @Designer156's pants,
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So a ski instructor thinks it is down to technique and a boot fitter thinks it is down to equipment Suspect some of both. I'd say technique is generally more important as good skiers can pretty much ski anything well with anything. However, the right kit for you certainly makes technique improvements at least easier and I am certainly grateful for reading CEMs comments which reinforced the good advice I got from my boot fitter so I would certainly get the boots checked out as well as take lessons.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
@TTT, difference is this boot fitter was a ski instructor many years ago so can see things form that side as well, absolutely it is a combination (see point 3) but a ski boot is one of the few pieces of sports equipment which "holds you" rather than you holding it, a boot puts you in a position and you have to like it, if your body fights with that position problems happen
a colleague once said, if you are within the industry norms you pay the price, outside those norms it is going to cost you more, calf muscle size at top of boot affects COM and has to be addressed first
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@CEM, I don't think you will find that I'm disagreeing with you at all. As I said I'm grateful for reading your advice on here. It's more that I often find SH informative but it is worth being aware that we all naturally have our perspectives based on our personal experiences and agenda. There is no doubt in my mind that the right kit particularly initially uncomfortably tight boots help. I do wonder though why i) professional ski instructors are less obsessed with their kit than punters and ii) why it is difficult to find a good boot fitter in ski regions where people living close to the mountains naturally tend to ski more frequently and to a higher standard? I suspect professional instructors and good local skiers typically have more advanced skills that they can more easily adapt to different equipment and blaming the equipment is a convenient excuse for punter skiers rather than looking at their own performance. Maybe instructors and locals have more skills and experience to make the right decisions about equipment themselves without assistance. On the other hand I think getting the equipment right enough so that it is not a distraction from performance is important. If you are a pro racer then clearly fine differences in equipment really do matter but the skier is still the most important factor. I just find the technical obsession on SHs with details that pros and good local skiers really generally don't care about somewhat strange and amusing.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@TTT, I would be very surprised if pros and locals don't take a lot of care with their equipment set up, and yes, they most definitely would have the right skills and experience to make the right decisions about equipment. For example, anyone who's skied a fair bit will know that the first time that you put on a new pair of correctly sized boots, they will be particularly tight to the extent of being unbearably uncomfortable after 2-3 hours; however, you also know that this discomfort will diminish over 3-4 days skiing resulting in a very well fitted boot for the next 100+ days skiing.
An instructor (or good skier in general) will instinctively have their fore/aft balance centred to enable the ski to turn and grip effectively when they want it too. However, if the boot/binding combo puts them too far forward, they'll still be able to ski it, but they'll be forced into a back seat position to get their weight in the right place over the ski and will get knackered thighs. If you ski with you weight too far forward, it's very hard to do anything other than snowplough/stem turns.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@ben76, then you would be surprised! Instructors and locals generally don't see the need for a specialist general boot fitting service. There are custom boot fitters such as Strolz but it is very difficult to find a specialised boot fitter such as you see in the UK in many European ski areas. Really good local skiers do just get them from the local general sports shop. I think as you and I have said they know themselves from experience what is right and don't have the need or see the need for a specialist boot fitter. This does not mean that I don't think it is a good idea for many people to go to a specialist boot fitter for advice. Most people unless you know from experience will benefit from advice on what size/model is suitable for them and a properly fitted foot bed, and people with out of the range fittings will need customizing. Harder to explain is why in many European ski areas it is not possible to find the general boot fitter service that you get in the UK and US for holiday skiers. But then I find there is a disproportionate number of Brits using fat skis on piste compared to local skiers. Different markets with different attitudes and local markets will naturally generally have more knowledge about ski equipment.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
TTT wrote:
Instructors and locals generally don't see the need for a specialist general boot fitting service.
Most of the instructors I know (not a huge sample, but mostly Trainers or established guys working full-time) seem to be extremely interested in boots that are comfortable and have the right level of performance. In itself that's not surprising if you spend 100+ days per year in boots. Conversations along the lines of "hey, new boots I see, who fitted them?" are fairly typical (and often the answer is Colin or Jules, because those guys don't need the use of their surnames). A smaller number are interested in alignment issues, but can talk knowledgeably about it if asked even if they don't do much work on their own setup.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Until I had my own ski boots fitted, I had rented as a teenager, and then one or two weeks as an adult. Until then, I just bought shoes '8 or 9' so they were not too tight or too loose. I had no idea that my left foot is narrower then my right.
Now I have been through that boot fit process (With a chap in LD mountain Centre, Newcastle, about ermm...8 years ago...) I think I would be far more confident - learned - buying my next boots.
My next boots may be soon. My first and only ones are fine, but I do wonder how much longer they will last.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@TTT, We seem to be in broad agreement! As for why there are very few decent bootfitters in resorts, that's simple: money. The average resort ski shop gets 4 months a year to maximise their income. This is done by employing cheap seasonal workers with limited experience and knowledge and shifting as many pairs of ski boots - either hire or sale - as possible every week to the average 6 days a year skier. Having an expert bootfitter spend 2 hours on every punter that comes in the door isn't going to maximise their profits.
This is why I'd always advise people to seek out a UK based fitter. They're not under the same time pressure as someone working in a resort shop.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@rob@rar, I am sure you are right. I'm not saying for a moment that they are not interested in comfort and performance but I also know plenty who think to put it politely that specialist boot fitting is a waste of time and money unless you are a racer. They have deals with suppliers, know what works for them and see no need. Generally there are many very good local skiers and instructors that have no concept of a specialist ski boot fitter as you see in the UK as it is very hard to find. Personally, I would still recommend many people go to a specialist boot fitter. However, it still does not explain the lack of specialist general boot fitters in many places in Europe. Clearly boots should be the right size/shape but many instructors and good local skiers seem a lot less obsessed about equipment and naturally a lot better skiers than the UK. I suspect that for most people once they have got the initial boot selection and proper foot beds sorted then you get into rapidly diminishing returns and you are better off focusing on good instruction rather than equipment .
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@TTT, is that not because most of the resort fitters are professionals, rather than the general trend in the uk of sales staff who fit boots and have targets. Added on to the fact that they fit more boots in a week than the average slush and roll sales person fits in a whole year.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@ben76, I'm sure that is a factor but still does not explain why there is not a general consumer demand willing to pay a premium for specialist boot fitters as there is in the UK and some French resorts. Personally much prefer to buy in resort as you can get adjustments done there and then rather than wait to get back to the UK after your holidays. Good boot fitters do exist in other ski resorts but they are hard to find, not quite so specialist and certainly not as generally well known as in the UK. Specialist boot fitting does seem to be a bit of a UK/US thing for some reason and it is not explained by the general standard of skiing.
@rob@rar, would I . I think you can find equipment that will enable you to become a good skier but not equipment that will make you a good skier. I suspect there is a disproportionate spend between equipment and instruction.
I'm not anti specialist boot fitting at all with some caveats. More just curious why people from UK are more particular about equipment as I found it very difficult to find resort fitters and sport stores in some major ski areas that offer anymore than the most basic advice.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
TTT wrote:
More just curious why people from UK are more particular about equipment ...
Are they? Outside of well educated audiences like snowHeads don't the majority of UK skiers either rent or visit their nearest ski retailer and buy a nice pair in red?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Specialist bootfitting is not a common thing in the UK. There are several dozen branches of S and R and EB in the UK. Meanwhile, the number of people working as specialist bootfitters in the whole country is likely quite low. I can only think of about five operations in England (CEM, Profeet, Anything Technical, Lockwoods, BackcountryUK) and one guy (Alpine McCannix) offering stance balancing. It isn't really an epidemic, it is just popular on Snowheads. If you talk to holiday skiers (and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, I will get six whole days this year) then most understand the square root of f'all about equipment.
Regarding European skiers. Many instructors in the alpine countries will have been through some sort of race programme or club skiing from a young age. I suspect this weeds out some of the phsiologically weaker specimens. My hunch is those that remain can use gear out of the box without needing a helping hand. That isn't true for some of us.
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Locals/instructors know they can go back until it fits okay. Uk skiers often don't have that privilege. Plus most resorts I've been to the locals seems to know who the 'good' boot fitter(s) are locally (the one you see if you have tricky feet) and also know if they do/don't have tricky feet.
Even so most UK folks just buy a pair from S&R that the nice man recommends and are fine, we only see the ones that aren't
aj x
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@rob@rar, @gorilla, I'd agree with that but still there does not seem to be equivalents of the UK operations mentioned in what are some major ski areas. Yes there are some custom build options for twice the price but very difficult if not impossible to find something in between like the UK options mentioned which seems strange when there is a much larger market of keen advanced skiers. I think it's right that many have grown up being part of ski clubs and don't feel the need for specialist advice is indeed part of the reason but it does seem that they are very good local skiers who are less obsessed about kit than snowheads for some reason. In the end I eventually found a small resort shop used by local racers and was very satisfied but was certainly not as full on as any of the UK options mentioned.
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