Ski Chalet Holidays in Austria Wages law - reported on We Love 2 Ski

A snowHead

@dsoutar, So, there are people on secondment from Asia who share bedrooms with 2-3 other people and being fed the leftovers from the cantines in their work places? And where would this be? Because I suspect this is not exactly how it works with secondment and certain standards still have to be met.

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France will be next , now that would really set the cat amongst the pigeons .

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I don't think any of this is ski-industry specific. Europe's economy has been stagnant for ages, and the protectionist shutters are coming down across the continent, to the detriment of all.

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@laundryman, it's not I agree. I also agree that economies become more protectionist in difficult periods but let's not forget that the recession and stagnation was caused by an under regulated banking market. Free markets fail because of greed and people abuse free markets. What we are talking about here is regulating the market to pay the minimum wage - not paying people because the economy is weak will not stimulate the economy. I believe economistics agree that the minimum wage is so low that it does not have an adverse impact on employment so what we are talking about here is offering workers a minimum level of protection and a level playing field for employers. SB has been able to unfairly undercut the local operators. If you want equivalence then it should be in all matters not just the ones that suit you.

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@TTT, I'm not aware of any local operators with a similar offering to SBS, at any price.

After all it is free

It may seem from comments on here that T/O's are the big bad wolf however profit margins are very small and if new regulations do come in T/O's will either go bust or be forced to up their prices markedly

Most reps tend to work just a season or two and although living conditions and wages are not the best there are plenty of takers as they are prepared to do it for the lifestyle. Comparing wages isn't all black and white, most overseas workers get a lift pass, ski and boot hire, accommodation, some element of provision for food, transport out at start of season and return and insurance.

Interesting to see what develops but don't think good for the industry . T/O's I would have thought cater most for families and beginners , without them there would be no future skiers and the industry is already suffering from declining numbers

@laundryman, Skivo2: I think that kind of proves my point though - SBS has been able to undercut competitors by not complying with local employment rules.

It's bad news for TOs but good news for employees and local operators. There is a price people are willing to pay. TOs will make lower margins on chalets, use more local operators with lower TO margins and more people will book direct. The TO market has been in a long and steady decline with the internet. People will still ski and supply and demand will set the price as ever - it's just a shift between the players.

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@TTT,
So you are saying SB has been able to undercut the local operators ! I gather you also mean undercutting the ESF who employ lower paid stiaigere's for the whole season or are you saying that it is ok for the ESF to undercut other schools by being allowed to employ lesser qualified and lower paid staff but not for SB or any other British run school.

I am glad to see that you agree equivalence should be in all matters and not just the ones that suit. So hopefully BASI will now be demanding that British or any other EU member states instructors who are equivalent can open a training school if they get together in groups of ten or more.

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My understanding is that the SB "model" has been integrating chalet accommodation with in-house lessons (good ones, from what I've heard) provided by English speaking instructors, in smallish groups. It's an unusual - perhaps a unique - set up but it would appeal to me. (I'd been looking at a stay with them at the time we bought our apartment). It's similar to the arrangements Inside Out have for their holidays, I guess, though IO don't manage the accommodation they use.

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@speed098, I was thinking of the chalet staff but I understand that ESF pay their Stagieres much better than SB given the amounts quoted on FB and that SB was employing his instructors as chalet staff for €400/month according to a court case. So I assume that as you support equivalence you believe that SB should be at least paying his staff and instructors minimum wage?

The Brits can if they are French qualified - these are exactly the same rules as the UK. I agree as I've said before I'd like to see BASI trainers of large Brit schools be able to running training programmes in France as they do and for the trainees to get work experience in France during peak periods rather then having to go to CH or Aosta for their work experience as they can in CH.

@pam w, skivo2 is the other option. In reality it is easy to combine instruction and accommodation yourself though, IO being an example. SB is able to make additional profit as he has being paying his staff and instructors less than the locals and Brits pay. This is what the debate is really all about. Money. You would have to be gullible to believe otherwise. Many are.

You know it makes sense.

@TTT,

Yes he should pay the rate the ESF pay stiaigere's but as they will not allow a British BASI training school it is a mute point, their problem not SB's. It is for them to acknowledge equivalency first if they don't then it is unjust to then accuse someone because you will not allow them full equivalency. But remember the ESF with stiaigere's can undercut a BASI school that has only L4 ISTD's so is it fair on them that ESF can undercut them ?

Brits can if French qualified is to say the least making a mockery of the EU directive on equivalency maybe it would have been better to say stuff BASI you now all need to re-qualify with ESF to work in France.

I do not agree with paying staff under the min wage but I also have to respect that in some jobs the work experience and the cultural experience etc they gain for them makes up the difference. Look at internships as an example many of them did not pay a penny at least the TO pay some money and provide very basic accommodation and food. Yes I accept two wrongs do not make a right TO should pay more in my opinion.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Is this a plot by supporters of SB to spread all the arguments about the rights and wrongs of his particular problems across every bloody thread? rolling eyes

This particular thread is about changes in minimum wage laws in AUSTRIA folks, as far as I understand it this is still an SB-Free zone!

A snowHead

A snowHead

Sorry @Samerberg Sue, I only mentioned it because it was mentioned by another about SB undercutting local operators.

I am not a supporter of SB either but maybe it is a plot by those who mentioned him first.

Will not mention them initials here again Embarassed

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Say something enough times and you can convince yourself it's true.

anyway... there are mountains and skiing in Austria? Shocked

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Merely pointing out a few realities to counter the propaganda machine. It is not the one who should not be named thread though. I understand that this is a cross European issue though - not an Austria per se issue as based on EU rules therefore it does impact inconveniently for some all TOs across EU and also CH.

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@TTT, I agree with you on that score but can we keep the boring circular crap about SB off this Austrian thread.

Seems to be a fairly British problem to me, the Dutch, Scandinavian and other reps I have met are not treated as cattle nor paid peanuts for the pleasure of grabbing a few hours skiing between the demands of their "slave drivers". One hotel I had the misfortune to stay in (out of desperation I hasten to add because I left it too late to book my normal place) was staffed entirely by young people from the UK working their socks off for the most miserable owners it has been my misfortune to meet. The whole set-up was based on the Total Ski French chalet hotel model their daughter had worked in during her "time out". The kids were great and worked damned hard for little thanks or praise, mother and father were heard to speak down to them on more than one occasion as well as order them around in a most arrogant and unfeeling manner. Food was measured out "nouvelle cuisine" style but sadly was not of that standard having mostly come out of a can or a deep-freeze. Portions were abysmal and even someone who eats as little as me was left feeling hungry after a 3 course meal. Most of the clientèle were from the braying classes (including silly drinking games and overly loud talking to the people sitting next to them), had little or no idea of what they were doing and were very happy to "try" Austria while their bonuses were down but "Weally only the Swiss and French know how to run a proper ski wesort dahlings" (I actually heard that conversation and almost choked on my over-priced beer at the bar)!

I committed the cardinal sins of a) knowing where I was and what I was doing, b) having my own skis and transport so was not dependent on either their rubbish equipment nor minibus and c) having the nerve to take an evening out at a local bar where I was able to get some decent fresh food! My friend told me that she had to keep looking out of the windows in the hotel to remind herself she really was in Austria! Toofy Grin

Fawlty Towers in the snow!

Complaints made by dissatisfied customers on Trip Adviser have had the Broadway Hotel treatment! Laughing

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@Samerberg Sue, I could not agree more. My particular favourite was a customer in a chalet hotel who wanted fruit instead of desert complained it was not peeled and cut up for her.

it is painful to watch how some brits behave and how they treat locals and staff. All these topics come down to respect for other people. Politeness and respect for locals and staff costs nothing. How hard is is to learn a few local phrases for instance. If it costs me a bit more when I see how they work for how much then so be it. espect for other people is more important than the free market mantra which is just used as an excuse for the stronger to abuse the weaker. We are only talking about the minimum wage here. I would much rather money goes to support the local community and the workers.

After all it is free

@TTT, The owners of Fawlty Towers in Austria were English not Austrian! Heaven forbid that they would have to deal with the local peasants my dear! Basil and Sybil leased the hotel for their daughter to carry on playing, only this time she could be Capo Di Capo (although Dad held the purse strings very very tightly). Laughing

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This will be a non story when the UK leaves the EU.

All UK based Ski Companys will have to change their business models. To continue to operate the large operators will have to incorporate a division of their company in Austria or other EU Ski country. Employees will have to be hired & paid,taxed, social, etc in Austria.

If the UK leaves their is likely to be some consequencies from the EU. One of which I forsee will be changes to the freedom of movement & work of non EU citizens & before anyone
mentions Norway or Switzerland.
Neither country is trying to destabalise or alienate the EU. Norway & Switzerland have excellent relations with the EU & Switzerland is even in Schengen.

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@Cacciatore, of course - that is why I said some, it's a segment, none of it applies to my Brit friends. People form their views from their own experiences - it can be good to be open to different experiences and perspectives.

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@Cacciatore, of course - that is why I said some, it's a segment, none of it applies to my Brit friends. People form their views from their own experiences - it can be good to be open to different experiences and perspectives.

What was that about boringly repetitive? Laughing

You know it makes sense.

@laundryman, Laughing

superb!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

So let's recap. TO's are preventing money been spent on the local economy. BUT, we pay more for ski passes, buy beer from a cartel, pay for lessons and equipment. (Lessons and hire I suspect proportionally, the locals pay a lot less for!) We also buy food on the mountain!

For reference, I for one enjoy coming back with a whole chunk of Euros less when I get back that when I leave. I also struggle with the idea that the cartel is only there to stop me being ripped off!!

If this goes through (assuming France as well), the main result will be less opportunities for youngsters to "do a season". My belief is that this is done primarily for life experience reasons, not for a career. (Always exceptions of course) That is why there is a queue of volunteers to earn slave wages.

And the winners of this initiative are....., well I can't see ANY!!! Skiing costs us more that our Dutch / German friends because we need to fly or take the tunnel. Drive our costs up, there will be less tourists. (See how busy Verbier is these days) Less tourists means less revenue. There is no constant on the number of visitors, costs go up means less visitors! Worse, as alluded to above, cut off the families from skiing, over time UK skiing will become less popular and more elitist. I for one do not like that idea.

Comparisons with AI are valid, BUT recall AI was started by hoteliers (mostly local owned) that wanted a bigger piece of the pie. Indeed, even now the TOs push for this, they need the hoteliers to agree!

Comparison to truck drivers I despair of! Competing for the same work, contributing nothing to the local economy.

I have never worked for a TO and feel no need to defend them. However, the idea they are making big money is a think somewhat fanciful!

A snowHead

When my daughter hosted a chalet, the 4 adults and up to eight kids were paying around £5k a week. Her wages for a fifty hour week, £30. She loved it but quadrupling her wages would have had no impact on the price of the holiday.

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^ but don't assume there will be the same number of jobs when higher wages are mandated.

Some people will pay the higher tourism costs, in which case they will have less to spend on other things, to the detriment of the people involved in supplying other things.

Some people will not pay the higher tourism costs, which will affect tourism employment.

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Ahh, the Eastern Europeans....keeping things competitive on the wages front over here...

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Being only semi-serious here, but when the slave trade was abolished, the proponents of it argued that the trade was necessary to the success and wealth of Britain. The merchants and planters warned that abolition would mean ruin for Britain, as the whole economy would collapse. A bit like the defence put forward to keep the Chalet girls working for the season for the poor old TOs and being paid virtually nothing.

Similarly, when the minimum wage was originally introduced in the UK the policy was opposed by the Conservative party at the time of implementation, who argued that it would create extra costs for businesses and would cause unemployment. David Cameron, said at the time that the minimum wage "would send unemployment straight back up". He now supports it.

My own view is that it is right that people working in various countries should be employed according to the usual rules and terms and conditions of that country. After a short while the market will adjust itself and everyone will wonder what the fuss was all about.

After all it is free

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Ski Chalet Holidays in Austria Wages law - reported on We Love 2 Ski

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