 Poster: A snowHead
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albinomountainbadger,
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Can you imagine the chaos if we could just hop over somewhere and take the easiest equivalent degree going then come back and use it to get into the professions?
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I know that's always been a goal and I can see it working for vets, doctors and dentists, as living things are generally the same all over Europe,
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I sincerely hope that I have mis-understood what you meant, but are you seriously suggesting that it's ok to get the easiest degree in medicine and then to able to practice anywhere but that ski instructing is more important 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A newly qualified level 2 has none or minimal mountain teaching experience and is no where near the ski Std of someone who has passed the TT.
It is indeed about EU law and SB was tried and convicted under EU law. The French are following EU law. The only people who believe otherwise are people with personal agendas who have not read and understood EU law.
The French training system is not against EU law. We have exactly the same requirement set up in my profession in the UK.
People can and do work in France all the time. They just have to have the same qualifications as the local people just as people from outside the UK require to do my job in the UK.
The reality is that some people have biases and agendas against the French because they do not have the necessary qualifications. It is natural people have these biases and actually ignore the evidence in front of them. It is human nature. Let us not kid ourselves that this is battle for the greater good but for people's personal interests. SB made it very clear when he got in bed with UKIP who are most certainly not supportive of freedom of movement.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have only ever seen him be helpful to any member something he does not have to do. I do not see him as the type who would be commenting just to drum up business only to highlight an issue.
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+1
It's a perfectly valid debate and a complex one, given the different opinions from people who have spent quite a lot of time studying the various laws. But it isn't only about France, is it? There are loads of British-run ski schools in France, apparently competing successfully despite the slope on the playing field (and despite the lack of language skills on the part of many of those concerned) because they provide a high quality product. How many British-run ski schools are there in Austria or Italy? Every time I ask that question somebody answers a different one, by telling me that there are lots of non-Austrian instructors in Austria.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| TTT wrote: |
| A newly qualified level 2 has none or minimal mountain teaching experience and is no where near the ski Std of someone who has passed the TT. |
But you miss the point it is not about how quick you can get through gates it should be about teaching ability. It is naïve to think everyone who can ski fast can also teach, some can but others can not just as some L2 BASI instructors have great teaching ability but can not ski like an Olympic athlete.
L2 BASI can teach in other country's so your statement re mountain teaching experience again shows an extreme lack of understanding and knowledge, someone who is L2 may have done a few seasons working in the mountains. And newly qualified? well how much mountain teaching experience has someone who has just passed the TT ? So please compare like to like.
I deliberately left out L1 BASI for this reason the std required without being disrespectful to any members here and the hard work and commitment they have put into gaining this first step on the ladder is not that high but neither are the expectations placed on these people high, but there are still some BASI L1 instructors with more teaching experience than someone who has just passed the TT all be it not mountain teaching experience.
People do not need the SAME ! qualification they need a qualification of an equivalent level and BASI L4 is that qualification in ski instructing and also a BASI L3 has to be recognised after all the French allow skiers who are not fully trained to teach on the slopes but think that is fine because they are working for the ESF gaining the qualification.
An engineer qualified in France can work in the UK as can a UK engineer work in France neither need to go to the other country's university first. There are some jobs that need a slight crossover course ( orientation courses etc ) but non I know of require you doing the FULL ! course.
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+1 - that is indeed the heart of the debate - the french view ski instructing as a professional teaching qualification so have a completely different perspective. If you look it from their perspective then you can see why they may think that people with comparatively limited skiing skills should not be ski instructors. This is a strangely peculiar UK debate that would be difficult from countries where they are brought up skiing would find difficult to understand let alone support.
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If a ski instructor wants to teach off piste I would set up a course where a world champion pisteur finds two beacons then digs them out. Any ski instructor has to get within 18% of the "openers" time.
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TTT,
As a lay-man it is very difficult to know what is or is not happening vis-à-vis European law as both you, and those who disagree with you, seem sure of your position.
As an average Brit it is entirely possible that over the years I have been brain-washed by Francophobic commentators, but let's be honest, this is hardly the first time or indeed the only arena in which France has openly flouted EU Law.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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albinomountainbadger, 
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this is hardly the first time or indeed the only arena in which France has openly flouted EU Law
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and our very own Prime Minister is determined to flout it too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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speed098, im fully familiar with the levels and what they do. I'm comparing a new L2 with a new TT so I'm comparing like for like according to you not an experienced L2 vs a new TT so comparison is not valid.
L2 is not a credible Std of skiing compared to someone who has passed the TT so I can see their perspective and I speak as a punter. L3 is a serious international qualification and I do think that people should have greater access to working for an approved ski school in France at that level. Sorry but I look at L1s and L2s and a local mountain skier and it really is not a serious debate. No offence to anyone including my own skiing but I have had enough beers with fully qualified to know what they really think and I fully understand and share their views.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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mozwold, it's really not that difficult - you just have to be familiar with the law and read what the law actually says rather than selected extracts and what you think it should say.
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davidof, 
TTT,
They may view it as a professional teaching qualification but BASI L4 has been decreed the equivalent from what I have read, if it had not then your argument has more validity. A French qualified school teacher can come and work here they do not need to go to a UK university first, their qualification is recognised.
Or is an actual school teacher a lesser qualified professional than a ski instructor ?
I don't think anyone wants to as the saying goes "stick it to the French" all people want is the mutual respect they deserve after spending many years gaining qualifications in their chosen profession. I am not against the French or any other nation wanting even demanding very high standards the question is can they demand only ! their standards to the detriment of all other nations equivalent standards?
pam w,
I am sorry I do not know much about other country's situation re instructing been enough trying to sift through all the information and miss information re the situation in France.
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You know it makes sense.
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It's simple - get the same qualifications as the French require of themselves as many have and you can work in France. I don't buy us brits should impose our standards on the French just because we have dry and indoor slopes and they have the alps. If someone wants to work as a teacher in the UK they have to be fluent in English. Perhaps the French should just impose what we require and expect people to be fluent in the local language and that would be fully compatible with EU law. If the French were cannier they would have focused on our lack of language skills rather than lack of ski skills.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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TTT, your "a teacher in uk has to be fluent in English analogy" is poorly thought out to say the least...... as I would imagine that the larger percentage of students taking ski lessons in France will be fluent in English not french, so being fluent in french from a teaching perspective is irrelevant.... Come on I am sure you can do better than that!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| TTT wrote: |
| It's simple - get the same qualifications as the French require of themselves as many have and you can work in France. I don't buy us brits should impose our standards on the French just because we have dry and indoor slopes and they have the alps. If someone wants to work as a teacher in the UK they have to be fluent in English. Perhaps the French should just impose what we require and expect people to be fluent in the local language and that would be fully compatible with EU law. If the French were cannier they would have focused on our lack of language skills rather than lack of ski skills. |
But again you completely ignore EU law yet then say a French teacher only needs to speak fluent English? What they do not need to go to a UK university to get as you say " The same qualification".
You seem to miss out the EU laws when it suits you and impose them when it suits you maybe this is the problem with some in the ESF.
At no point are "Us Brits" as you say imposing our standards on the French they made their own choice to be a part of Europe and the laws associated with being in the EU are part and parcel of that decision. They have imposed external standards on themselves just as every other member nation has so why should they be allowed to ignore the bits that do not suit them?
Yes it would have been cannier for them to impose a min language level but they did not instead they ignored an EU directive re equivalency.
Nobody I have spoke to or seen comment thinks a BASI L1 should teach on the mountain and personally I think a L2 should be allowed to teach beginners in the mountains and be working towards their level 3 but only for so many years before they either have to have passed the level 3 or if not at min do some form of re-sit that allows them to continue but only ever teach lower standard skiers ( because they are exceptionally gifted instructors but not able to race or ski moguls say to age or health conditions ) or stop teaching in the mountains altogether.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| If a ski instructor wants to teach off piste I would set up a course where a world champion pisteur finds two beacons then digs them out. Any ski instructor has to get within 18% of the "openers" time. |
I know you said that tongue in cheek but that would be a fantastic prerequisite for off piste instruction
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
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I have only ever seen him be helpful to any member something he does not have to do. I do not see him as the type who would be commenting just to drum up business only to highlight an issue.
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+1
It's a perfectly valid debate and a complex one, given the different opinions from people who have spent quite a lot of time studying the various laws. But it isn't only about France, is it? There are loads of British-run ski schools in France, apparently competing successfully despite the slope on the playing field (and despite the lack of language skills on the part of many of those concerned) because they provide a high quality product. How many British-run ski schools are there in Austria or Italy? Every time I ask that question somebody answers a different one, by telling me that there are lots of non-Austrian instructors in Austria. |
+1
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| TTT wrote: |
| +1 - that is indeed the heart of the debate - the french view ski instructing as a professional teaching qualification so have a completely different perspective. If you look it from their perspective then you can see why they may think that people with comparatively limited skiing skills should not be ski instructors. This is a strangely peculiar UK debate that would be difficult from countries where they are brought up skiing would find difficult to understand let alone support. |
Indeed. You only have to look at how the brits do in competitive skiing to see why I wouldn't dream of having ski lessons from one.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| If a ski instructor wants to teach off piste I would set up a course where a world champion pisteur finds two beacons then digs them out. Any ski instructor has to get within 18% of the "openers" time. |
A fine plan. It's certainly a more apposite test than the existing closed-shop thing.
I think that it is a bit of a cheek for ESF people to turn up in the UK touting for business whilst their organisation deliberately disadvantages UK people. I don't suppose they'll change because we don't like it, but they need to know we know what they're up to.
As far as other countries... I only heard about the French court cases: go ahead and post about others, if you can find them.
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It's just human perception bias to misinterpret and ignore points that did not fit in with preconceived prejudices.
We generally require the French to be fluent in English to get a job in the UK. The French do not require the same of us. I know many instructors do not have the basix language skills as I have to translate the lift operators instructions for them. In my job it's a requirement that the person is fluent in English and the local language before we give them a job. The French are not inposing this requirement even though we require this in practice and it is allowed by the relevant EU law which indicates degree level which is below the level the majority of young eupopeans that I know speak English.
The EU law is about recognising equivalent qualifications. It is not about allowing lower standards because we are typically not as good. But who cares about my view. That is the view of the police, authorities, judges, the EU and BASI. This french breaking the EU law and 90pc of BASI having their rights infringed is simply not true. SB on the other hand publicly supports infringing liabilities and going against EU law. Is is just people with their own personal agendas as of course the French and all of us have. he FRENCH are not breaking the law, they could be tougher within the law. Whether you agree with the law or not is another matter.
I know my skiing ability is nothing compared to a mountain local, my instructor knows that, the mountain locals know that. I don't have a problem they won't let me work there because I'm not as good as they are and can't speak their language fluently. SB on the other hand wants to stop me working where I do have the necessary professional qualifications and language skills which he does not possess. That is wrong.
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Ok yes that's freedom of movement but you're only giving the headline principle, your own link also says that a "European lawyer is able to advise on the law of their home state, international and European law, and also the law of the host state (subject to certain restrictions)." I think the bit about 'certain restrictions' is going to be a fairly powerful kick in the tail. We're not talking about a Pole arriving tomorrow and setting up English wills and trusts or arguing a divorce (are we?!).
It also says they must register with a competent body such as the Law Society, so I'm guessing for instructors the equivalent is registering for a Carte Pro.
Maybe they should say that non-French qualified Brits are only allowed to teach on plastic slopes, or ski slopes with the maximum gradient and length of a fridge...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| TTT wrote: |
| SB on the other hand wants to stop me working where I do have the necessary professional qualifications and language skills which he does not possess. |
In what way? Are you talking about his UKIP affiliation or something else?
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dogwatch, correct. I can see both sides of the debate and have some sympathy but some of the rhetoric and xenophobia from some people is not helpful. I also sympathise with the French view as I have worked to get the relevant professional qualifications and language certificates in my job and know the difference Supporting a party who wants to take away to right work in Europe for those who do have the right qualifications just because some people haven't qualified does not strike many as constructive but does make me appreciate why they have such strong feelings on the topic.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Yes, his choice of political ally certainly didn't warm me to his cause, and UKIP's championing of SB strikes me as entirely cynical given their overall stance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| UKIP's championing of SB strikes me as entirely cynical given their overall stance. |
They know what they're doing, they've taken the gamble that he will lose once again, at which point they can cheerfully declare that all the promises of Europe are nothing but a farce, and even though Britain has always paid by the rules it is just in the club to give give give.
Unless David Cameron can get SBS the right to be a ski school on his own terms then UKIP can't lose that one, but if by some miracle SB wins then UKIP can claim it was thanks to their threats that Brussels relented! The next step is simply to say it's great that SB can now work, but does the UK really want to be part of a club where it has to go to court every time someone wants to play a game?..
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And then there's this:
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You know it makes sense.
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Cynical as in commiserating someone for being wet while planning to steal their umbrella.
Your graph demonstrates the startling fact that 50% of people have below average intelligence. I blame the teachers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I blame that little bit of water in between, the press for pandering to people's ignorance and prejudices and our general abysmal language skills.
I know for a fact that you can work in other EU very easily without going to court - you just need to work to get the equivalent qualifications under EU law. May be some ski instructors should consider that. Just up your game and comply with EU law as the French have done in this matter. The French may well have drafted EU law to suit their aims but that is a different argument.
I'm sure that the 1.4m people from the UK who live in other EU countries will be delighted if we lose the right to live and work in other EU countries. No doubt they will agree with SB'S fight not to comply with EU law. Forgive me if I don't believe the xenophobes are taking some moral high ground - the only interest they have is not the general good but themselves just as I have a selfish interest for the freedom to live and work in Europe so that I can sample that half of meter of fresh snow that is coming down now. If I have to change nationality so I can carry on skiing regularly because of some people's lack of understanding and own self interest so be it but progress it is not .
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Poster: A snowHead
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| TTT wrote: |
| +1 - that is indeed the heart of the debate - the french view ski instructing as a professional teaching qualification so have a completely different perspective. If you look it from their perspective then you can see why they may think that people with comparatively limited skiing skills should not be ski instructors. This is a strangely peculiar UK debate that would be difficult from countries where they are brought up skiing would find difficult to understand let alone support. |
Indeed. You only have to look at how the brits do in competitive skiing to see why I wouldn't dream of having ski lessons from one. |
But teaching is not the same as racing. Would you prefer to be taught how to drive by Kimi Raikkonen or someone who could teach 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's not but IME someone who has trained and raced e.g for ET knows a lot more more about skiing and has more knowledge to pass on than someone who has not including an eye for detail and correcting the basics with lower level skiers. I know level 2 skiers who I now appreciate have a solid technique but not sure my mates would view them as credible as they skidded past them. Actually think there is an argument for introducing some more elements of a timed test to lower levels to increase the objective standard and understanding of skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They may have more knowledge, but can they get it across - that's what teaching is about. I'd rather have an experienced and technically decent skier who could get his message across (and also see the mistakes I was making) teach me than a racer who couldn't. I'm not interested in getting down a mountain as fast as I can
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martinm, BASI trainers are L4s and will have passed the Eurotest, by your argument they will be incapable of explaining anything to any other BASI instructor.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Personally I'd rather have an instructor who is both a great skier and a great teacher. And funnily enough I've found a couple - both qualified to the top level in France and teaching there legally. One is French (and set up his own ski school after leaving ESF as he didn't like their approach) and the other Scottish (snowhead Diverskify). And I'm sure there are plenty more. Being a great skier does not prevent someone being a great teacher.
I've also had a really really awful French ESF instructor. I didn't go back.
For me the biggest help would be better public ratings or info on the instructors in ski schools - e.g. all ski school websites showing the qualifications/levels of each instructor so people know what they are getting. Ratings - I'm not sure how it would be done reliably but if it could and it was widely used it would drive up quality of teaching pretty quickly I would imagine! In the meantime SH postings are a start, and Geneva word of mouth a local websites do a fair job here.
Beside that I really don't care about English vs French squabbles. But for what it's worth I support the French - they allow any nationality to enter and train in their system and subsequently teach in France, so that seems pretty open and fair to me. (I also really don't like ESF, as I've personally come across far too many poor instructors there, and seen groups that are too large to be effective)
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| rjs wrote: |
| martinm, BASI trainers are L4s and will have passed the Eurotest, by your argument they will be incapable of explaining anything to any other BASI instructor. |
No, I didn't say that at all....
Just because they can race doesn't mean they can't teach, just that being a good teacher isn't a prerequisite of racing!
'Personally I'd rather have an instructor who is both a great skier and a great teacher.'
Yep, that'd do me too!
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It's crossing wires a bit though, that argument is akin to the debate on PhD scientists being good lecturers in that being a genius is no good if you can't share it with students.
As far as I'm aware the French aren't saying BASI members are rubbish teachers, they are saying that those who haven't done the TT can't ski well enough to meet the French standard to be a teacher. How is that any different to the reverse scenario of asking an ex-Olympian who wants to be a PE teacher if he has GCSEs?
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Your graph demonstrates the startling fact that 50% of people have below average intelligence. I blame the teachers.
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Nice one
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Many of the top coaches in sport have never been the best athletes and I think that there is a case for that in skiing. Unlike most sports there are many recreational skiers who have no desire to be able to race but do want to improve their technique. Depending on your ability the instructor will need to be able to spot the issues and provide ways to remove them from the technique so that you can progress.
In skiing it is often helpful to be able to demonstrate a technique and so the skill level of the instructor becomes important and must be appropriate for pupil. Many trainee instructors can do this for beginners and lower intermediates but not with those of higher levels.
In some ways the issue is not being able to ski fast but being able to ski slowly in a technically correct way so that the pupil can clearly see what's required from a demonstration.
Regardless of nationality I want my instructor to watch me and help me to correct the flaws in my technique not demonstrate that they can ski fast through gates.
These squabbles seem to have become "my view is more right then yours" and I am beginning to lose the plot. I accept that if their is a required standard for someone to start a ski school then that is the standard required whether it be BASI/ESF or any other appropriate level. However if you can start a school then you should be allowed to employ trainees and use them to teach/assist in appropriate lessons and provide further training to enable them to progress.
Some of the rhetoric in this thread does imply that there is a degree of protectionism in the French system, in particular around the requirements to employ trainees. However the need to be registered as Carte Pro in order to be self employed/ski school operator does seem to be consistent with EU legislation.
I'd be interested to know how these rules are implemented in other European countries and indeed any equivalent in the US/Canada/ Oz/NZ systems.
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TTT,
So how do you explain Simon Butler in 2003 taking his case to the EU and it being found in his favour?
I believe around 2006 a FRENCH ! court found in his favour and that British qualified instructors should not be subject to criminal proceedings in the future.
Also as the Euro test was introduced in 2004 ( yes SB has refused to take it and IMO he is perfectly correct and right to do so ) How many ESF instructors currently hold this ET and how many do not ? Why do those who do not hold the ET suffer the same actions ie arrest and court proceedings ? just because they are ESF instructors should not give them special treatment over someone who holds the highest BASI and vice versa.
Now I do not know SB maybe he is a really nice guy maybe not maybe he has just peed off someone there who has decided to make his life hell but the facts if what I have read and typed above are correct show he is in the right has won court cases but someone locally is ignoring prior rulings.
I remember reading as well that many long standing BASI instructors like SB were GIFTED ! the ET ie they did not have to take it this makes a mockery of what they are saying of SB and doing to him especially as many ESF instructors have not got the ET either.
I do agree with you that language skills should be part and parcel maybe in your first year a bit more relaxed but after that you should be pretty fluent but please do not compare with here one of the biggest employers in our town advertises for work on Poland many of the night shift are Polish and recently they advertised a night time supervisors job and part of the requirements were the applicant needed to speak Polish.
Yes us Brits are crap at learning another language but it is not all one sided. The French could have easily and legally imposed a language requirement to restrict instructors but if,mights,and buts are irrelevant in this case because they did not. Plus as SB has been working out there for atleast 20 years or more I expect he would pass the language test anyway.
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FAQ
