 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... it's just part of an on-going campaign for clear English and being able to understand what people are writing. Such understanding may or may not contribute to my own skiing, its just more interesting day to day to be able to understand what I read. FWIW I liked the concept of the two skis being on different sized circles. |
There can be far too much navel-gazing about technique, which I fear gets in the way of actually being able do stuff with skis, on snow. Sometimes it's the very opposite of KISS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Fully agree with Rob. I used to feel cheated if I didn't get lots of info. I now realise the reason I get so little info is because I'm simple and can only process a very limited amount of info at a time. I just try to do what I'm told and feel what is going on and not think about it too much. However going through a phase of understanding the theory first I think has helped me.
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| TTT wrote: |
| However going through a phase of understanding the theory first I think has helped me. |
Yes, me too, but I think it needs to be the fundamentals not the minutiae, and it needs to support development not get in its way.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
For those who I have taught for a long time it's useful way of describing in two words what it has taken half a thread and a couple of photos to (not quite) describe a fairly simple thing...
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Yeah - a simple idea masked by particularly opaque language!
so it means the angle between leg and upperbody at the hip that achieves hip angulation.
I think I see the derivation - original form was lower and upper body separation when legs pivot below a stationary upper body. Someone wanted an analagous term for edged rather than pivoted turns - a different form of separation. Lateral seems a bit ambiguous though, a misnomer, I mean you are actually carefully positioning your upper body relative to your legs to set your CM relative to your edges - they are working closely together not separately.
Isn't hip angulation much more descriptive? I think "dropping the hip into the turn" is even clearer as a picture of what is going on - but I guess all this stuff is very subjective.
oh and skimottaret, why is "separation" less likely to provoke injury than "angulation" 
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jedster, thank you for continuing to push - Ah, so it's about the angulation of the hips in particular!
Sorry guys, I don't see why I should let this drop - surely the first goal of an instructor is to ensure understanding?
Lateral, to my mind means side relative to side on a horizontal plain in this instance, and still doesn't seem a good word to use IMO
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| jedster wrote: |
| so it means the angle between leg and upperbody at the hip that achieves hip angulation. |
Yes, crucially the shoulder isn't "dropped" in to the turn by the same proportion as the hips, hence the difference in angle of the legs and the torso. I find that teaching lateral separation/angulation per se isn't terribly effective. Better to work on skills so that lateral separation/angulation is the consequence of what the skier is doing. Too many skiers seem to get contorted out of shape when they focus on "creating lateral separation".
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| Megamum wrote: |
jedster, thank you for continuing to push - Ah, so it's about the angulation of the hips in particular!
Sorry guys, I don't see why I should let this drop - surely the first goal of an instructor is to ensure understanding?
Lateral, to my mind means side relative to side on a horizontal plain in this instance, and still doesn't seem a good word to use IMO |
With the greatest respect, I think your focus on "understanding" does get in the way of your skiing. My goal (in addition to making sure you stay safe and have some fun) is to help you ski better. Endless and sometimes contradictory messages about ski technique, won't, IMPO, help you improve your skiing. If "lateral" and/or "separation" aren't words that you can readily visualise I promise not to use them when teaching you (I don't believe I've done so in previous sessions). For you I think it is significantly better to focus on being well balanced on your skis from the moment you start the turn: can you, for example, easily pick up your inside ski and do as much of the turn as you want on one leg? Once you are well balanced on your skis, once you have good edge control, once you have clean transitions and once you're happy with increasingly higher speeds, you will naturally angulate/have good lateral separation, otherwise you will fall over. It's a pretty good intrinsic feedback 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm sure that's right rob. It is mostly an outcome isn't it? If you try to set really high edge angles you'll either naturally seperate at the hip or likely fall over / get on the inside ski...
I think you get there by experimenting by just how steep an edge angle you can set. You begin to realise that what you though was a steep angle really wasnt at all....
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| jedster wrote: |
I'm sure that's right rob. It is mostly an outcome isn't it? If you try to set really high edge angles you'll either naturally seperate at the hip or likely fall over / get on the inside ski...
I think you get there by experimenting by just how steep an edge angle you can set. You begin to realise that what you though was a steep angle really wasnt at all.... |
Absolutely right, on all points. Especially the last one, which is always disappointing. The angles are never as big as you think they are.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, as rob@rar, said try not to think about it too much. So many skiers overthink what they are trying to do.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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All it was, was a simple enquiry - what did it mean? Not that I needed to know in relation to my own skiing, not that the knowledge was going to confuse my own skiing, not that I wanted to overthink things, I just wanted to know, just as I would any new term and you know what? I still don't think I know. However, don't worry, I've no wish to derail the thread further, I'll go and look it up on Google!! 
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You know it makes sense.
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There can be far too much navel-gazing about technique, which I fear gets in the way of actually being able do stuff with skis, on snow. Sometimes it's the very opposite of KISS.[/quote]
You been speaking to Phil Smith lately!
PS I agree
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
can you, for example, easily pick up your inside ski and do as much of the turn as you want on one leg?
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When things are going wrong I always go back to that - until the answer to that question is "Yes" (so you only have two skis on the snow for a very short time at transition) there's not much point trying anything too much more complicated.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I wonder if confusion arises because 'separation' here means a difference of angles, shown strongly in rob's pic above, while most who have not been on a BASI course may expect this to mean a distance or displacement, e.g. stance width.
I've just completed a BASI performance course and spent quite a bit of time on rotational separation, as evident in kitenski's earlier pic...head and shoulders have not followed round the turn as far as his skis.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 3-05-14 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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One ay I used to explain separation was to use the Duck analogy ie from the waist up all is calm and from the hips down your going like the clappers that was the separation rather than trying to explain angles and dynamics to an intermediate. It is not as simple as that but that is all that is needed at the star,t as the separation starts and begins to improve then you can go into more technical explanations of what is going on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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TTT,
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I also think it is a lot more helpful illustration of the standard required than the official trainer demos.
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that's an extremely good point.
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rob@rar, OK, so the picture shows two different angles, but is it any different from what I typically understand as just separation - i.e. what you have tried to encourage me to do - i.e. the legs operating separate from the body, which by definition surely implies that the legs must be at different angles to the upper body - it would be difficult to do otherwise? Is 'lateral' separation just a fancy way of saying the same thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| rob@rar, OK, so the picture shows two different angles, but is it any different from what I typically understand as just separation - i.e. what you have tried to encourage me to do - i.e. the legs operating separate from the body, which by definition surely implies that the legs must be at different angles to the upper body - it would be difficult to do otherwise? Is 'lateral' separation just a fancy way of saying the same thing. |
You can also have rotational separation (when the upper body faces down the fall line and the legs rotate around the turn). Lateral separation is a different thing and needs a different title. But as I said, these words are just "technical shorthand" and shouldn't be used when teaching if they are going to cause confusion.
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Megamum, if you really want to get into all this, with first class demos at slow speed, you should look into Rick Schnellmann's DVDs - they have the huge advantage (compared, say, to Phil smith's DVDs which, to my mind, show PS doing clever stuff that I can't do but lack any useful suggestions as to how to make progress from my own level) that they really do build up in stages.
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Megamum, if you want to get thoroughly bamboozled go and have a look at the resurrected "counter" thread.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, Hello
FWIW My opinion is.......... It's healthy to ask questions & want to improve, but...............
Tryin to pick out individual strands from the tapestry of skills that is skiing, such as trying to emulate Greg's short radius turns or anyone's individual technique, is like................. eating a delicious cake, and then thinking that you can create something like it with just the flour or just raisins or just the cream that will give you a short cut to the flavour & texture of the cake.
I want to make GS turns like Ligerty but cest le vi..............
You gotta have all the ingredients in your larder, you gotta know how to BAKE and ya gotta make a lot of cakes, some you'll be good at like scones, others will flop like sponges. So back to skiing, then you'll be able to do turns like Greg cos all your skiing will be like Greg's or any other L2 Instructor. The same way that your cakes would be like Nigellas if you followed her recipe and practiced all your baking skills.
Do you get me?
NB: For anyone else reading this...I don't care if you think I'm sexist, Megamum knows her cakes! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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franzClammer, that's a really brilliant analogy, imho. You will obviously make a great instructor. So long as none of your clients is French.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, FWIW I think you're quite right to try and understand what is going on if it interests you, as it clearly does. Doesn't mean you can't "keep it simple" during your on-snow time 
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So long as none of your clients is French
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Toot a fay
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, how about we try this way of explaining it.
If you go round a turn and your upper body and legs are in line you will be a strong position to resist the forces and we call this being stacked (i.e you could draw a straight line from your head to the ski's and it would pass through your body.
Now by seperating laterally you will create a C shape and be able to get on the edges further whilst not being at such an angle that your upper body is touching the snow. It is not as strong as when stacked but allows for more edge angle and quicker movement as your body does not have as far to go when you change direction. think of a pendulam and the distance it has to travel at he end of each swing whilst the wire would represent that staright line in a stacked position whilst skiing.
Hope that makes sense and is correct rob@rar,
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| franzClammer wrote: |
| will answer all your questions and dispel confusion |
Although some of us on where might suggest we could do that already without recourse to the library...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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the pic makes it blindingly obvious what lateral seperation is, if MM cant get it from that then ....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There is a bit of confusion between the terms Angulation & Lateral Separation I think ,
as in the Glossary does not mention Lateral Separation .
I take it to mean Angulation is a general term for any angled skiing wheras Lateral separation
is more specific meaning sideways separation of upper body & legs.
Maybe someone can tell me the difference ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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lateral separation is the same thing as angulation
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ok thanks skimottaret,
the Glossary does make Angulation clear its just the Lateral separation meaning the same was a bit confusing!
Lateral separation making the difference to Rotational separation is where the term comes from I suppose.
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| Quote: |
lateral separation is the same thing as angulation
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skimottaret, BINGO!! Advance to Go and collect £200 - it was that easy to come up with something to explain it - 'angulation' I understand. snowxxx, I have also been looking at the SH Glossary.
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Megamum, so you understand the word "angulation" but you didn't understand the phrase "the legs are at a different angle to the body" and its accompanying photograph? Genuinely perplexed! Makes me wonder why I bother.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, well tbh they still all look/sound like the same thing, angulation, separation (as in upper lower body separation), lateral separation, rotational separation etc., I still struggle to comprehend any subtle difference in them. The photo showed what seemed to me to be angulation, but if that is also lateral separation then so be it.
Also, for the record, to all those that have accused me over thinking things and apparently concentrating on things that I don't need to, there is a big difference in trying to understand what a single term means just for the sheer hell of knowing and deciding that said bit of info applies to me skiing (or otherwise).
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FAQ
You read my mind. Although, "bamboozled" is not the 'b' word I was thinking of 