 Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting thread...
As a Snowsports Instructor in Canada, I'm one of the few that gets regular hours, 8 hr days.
Speaking to other Instructors at different resorts, many are struggling for hours, averaging 3 to 4 a day if they are lucky.
One resort last month, gave their Instructors a bill for their accommodation, as they hadn't earned enough in the month to cover the rent. A crazy situation.
I never expect tips, but they are greatly excepted especially if you know you have provided a great lesson and the clients are happy and improving.
Doing a season, generally leaves you out of pocket each year.
The costs of flights, Insurance, Skis, Equipment, Clothing, Association fees, Immigration fees, Course and Exam fees all run into £1000's every season...many people think these are paid for, but Instructors have to pay for them themselves.
Yes it's a great job, but it's still a job where many sacrifices have to be made to do it.
Pretty much everything is done on a shoestring so that you can survive.
People don't think twice about tipping a waitress in a bar or restaurant here, and they pretty much make more money than many Instructors, just for carrying a few drinks or plates.
To give you an example... a toilet cleaner for the forestry dept here make $25 an hour.
An average hourly wage for many Instructors is between $14-$20.
Kind of puts it in perspective... but I'm not complaining, wouldn't change this job for anything.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Chattonmill that's it exactly!! Nail on the head 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jedster wrote: |
| I'm amazed that a ski instructor could only get 1/8 of the ammount paid for a lesson. That is absurd. |
Yes it is. I make a living doing consultancy work for other companies that hire me out at 2-3 times what they pay me. That is reasonable - they have sales and marketing costs to cover which I don't. Working through them means I don't have to spend time looking for work. But 8 times is ridiculous.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
| I'm amazed that a ski instructor could only get 1/8 of the ammount paid for a lesson. That is absurd. |
8 times is ridiculous. |
It's also very normal.
My current place can charge (once converted) £390 in total for 8 people to get 4 hours of lessons in a day. As their instructor, I stand to earn £33 for those hours. Not £33 per person. £33 in total. (~£8.20/hr)
At a previous place (an indoor centre in the UK) it would cost £1280 for 8 people to do the 'Learn in a Day' package - 6hrs of skiing - and for that day the instructor would earn £54. (~£7.14/hr)
(It is worth noting, of course, that those wages would be the same if there was only 1 person on those lessons, rather than 8.)
Those wages are entirely normal. They represent typical wages across 2 continents for a low-to-mid level qualified instructor (I'm a CSIA level 2).
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 4-02-14 10:14; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thedrewski, great example, thanks! Imagine trying to live in a ski resort at that rate of pay...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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But do wages really matter? Does that mean that because I have a higher qualification and higher pay I should get tipped less?
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jimmer, the point of tipping in this context is that it's at the discretion of the customer. There are no shoulds, it's just a nice thing to do if you feel it's appropriate, and according to this thread any gesture of thanks (monetary or otherwise) is greatly appreciated by instructors.
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Humpfknick, of course, I am not saying anyone should or shouldn't tip. I just wondered if the people that felt tips were more appropriate due to low wages feel that because I get paid a bit more I am less deserving of tips.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A little more apropriate for lower wages, yes I think so.... not less deserving at all, I often feel the more qualified put more effor into their lessons. But maybe you earn more because you are expected to be good at your job?
example: I would be more inclined to tip a normal instructor than if say the boss of the ski school gave me a lesson. 10 euros means a lot more if you are earning 700 a month instead of 2000!
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Yes I think it's very much related to context. ie IMO a great kiddy ski instructor who works hard for a low wage is equally deserving of a good tip as a well paid guide who has spent years training, is passionate about their job and has put heart and soul into passing on the benefits of their experience to the customer. One might be paid more than the other, but I would tip both.
if I had to choose to tip only only one though, I would tip the lower paid one, because the tip in that context is more than just a gesture of gratitude, it's the differentce between having a bit of extra cash for new gloves, food, beer or whatever.... or not.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The shock for me Heliskiing a week in Canada (half the guests were from the USA) was that it was normal (and expected) to tip 12 to 15%. No, that wasn't the full shock - the shock was that it was 15% of the TOTAL HOLIDAY  Even then that would have been about £500. Now with a week at $8,000 plus it would be much more. We simply hadn't taken enough money with us to do it which was embarrassing.
No, I don't tip Graham Austick (owner and chief guide of Piste to Powder) since he clearly makes a packet out of the other guides. Neither do I tip another guide we use who has a big business building and renovating chalets and still does a bit of guiding now and then for fun (I just give him a bottle of Lagavulin single malt at the end of the week).
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 4-02-14 12:34; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ooooh snowball, OUCH!!! Whose idea was THAT!! Lol I don't agree with that situation, I really do feel it should be entirely discretionary....
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I have no objections to tipping when it is a modest extra for genuinely good service. I shy away from places where large tips are the norm.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Humpfknick wrote: |
Yes I think it's very much related to context. ie IMO a great kiddy ski instructor who works hard for a low wage is equally deserving of a good tip as a well paid guide who has spent years training, is passionate about their job and has put heart and soul into passing on the benefits of their experience to the customer. One might be paid more than the other, but I would tip both.
if I had to choose to tip only only one though, I would tip the lower paid one, because the tip in that context is more than just a gesture of gratitude, it's the differentce between having a bit of extra cash for new gloves, food, beer or whatever.... or not. |
I definitely would not suggest that lower paid instructors are less deserving of tips, just felt that a lot of the debate was 'instructors don't get paid anything, they need the money', which at times is true, but frequently is not.
Personally I don't get tipped much here in Japan, I do get tipped quite lot in Chile, my wages in both places are quite similar.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jimmer wrote: |
| But do wages really matter? Does that mean that because I have a higher qualification and higher pay I should get tipped less? |
They only matter in the context of the belief of - seemingly - many who think that all instructors are well paid and get a very high percentage of the cost of the lessons.
I completely agree that tips are not necessary, that they are entirely at the discretion of the customer and are never expected. I disagree entirely with the very American notion of 'expected tipping'.
Nobody is more or less deserving of tips than anyone else, no matter what their qualification or what their other jobs on the mountain may be - if you think they deserve one, then hand it over. If not; don't.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, There is no way I would have coughed up that kind of tip. I do tip chalet host but as a group we normally put in about 20 Euros each so they get a reasonable amount from us.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I went on a river cruise at Europe. There was an "expected tip" of certain percentage, which they advicecd us at the time of booking (no excuse of not having the cash)
The trip hit some snag and was close to unravelled towards the end. Needless to say, there were a lot of rather unhappy customer. Before we were to be driven to the airport, we were reminded again for our tips. You should see the expression on people's face.
Our family decided we would not tip according to the norm.
But the matter was complicated: some of the tips goes to the crew, who worked tirelessly to make us comfortable despite the hicups which they had no control. Do they deserve to have their tips witheld? While those who WERE in control that were partially blamed for the fiasco, should they get any tips at all???
So, instead of putting the tips into the "pool", we seek out our cabin attendents and gave them the tips directly.
Was it fair? Not entirely. There're other low level crew members who worked equally hard but had no direct contact with the guests. So they may not get their share of our tips. But had we put the tips into the "pool", it would go to those who didn't do their jobs properly. That would be rewarding job done poorly! We just didn't think that's right.
Tipping is after all voluntary, whatever the "expectation"!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I thought I'd throw in a few other points that might raise a few eyebrows...as to who is 'deserving of tips'... and a few other points worth considering.
As to when booking a Lesson, it can sometimes be a complete lottery as to the quality of Instructor you will have, especially in Children's group lessons.
From my experience, it is often young newly qualified Instructors who will conduct these lessons.
Adult more advanced lessons, are often conducted by more mature and higher qualified Instructors.
This isn't always the case, but is more often than not.
Also when put in a Children's group lesson, it can also be a lottery as to the ability of the children in the group. It is a common occurrence for splits in ability in these groups. This is often down to the parents...who when booking the lesson, will 'big up' their kids ability when it is a lot poorer in reality. The Instructor will often have to pay more attention to the children with the least ability and unfortunately the stronger one's get less... I often feel for these kids and the parents who have paid good money for a lesson. In an hour lesson it's a nightmare... a full day lesson it's much easier, as Instructors will often change their students 'up' or 'down' with another Instructor depending on ability.
If you can, from my findings... find out who the good Instructors are, and put your kids or yourselves in a private group lesson...
It is also worth noting that their are Instructors who 'excel' at certain situations.
Some expertise in teaching kids, some adults, some timid skiers, some off piste, some race, freestyle, Special needs, etc,etc....
Ask at the desk for what you want...it's worth it in the end.
Instructors are often encouraged to find their 'niche'
For example my 'niche' tends to be with more mature clients with some ability and video lessons... I'm the only one in my Ski school that offers this and it's a big hit. I email the video to my Clients to keep and they keep coming back.
Another point worth considering when choosing your Instructor.
There are Instructors who are doing their job just because they want to be in the mountains and skiing and partying but have no interest in it ever being a career... and there are those that are proud at doing their job, do it diligently, look to give quality, are looking at it as a career and keep looking to better themselves and their lessons.
Also worth knowing...Because of Immigration restrictions in certain Countries, it's harder and harder for Snowsports schools to employ Instructors on Sponsored working visas, often forcing them to employ Instructors on working holiday visas. This has in many places lowered the standard of Instructors, notably in the USA, where Schools were forced to employ 'Instructors' with no qualifications, who were just good skiers and worked part time to help out over busy periods. Fortunately they have noted this lowering in standards and restrictions are starting to lift. Unfortunately Canada has started to do the opposite...hopefully they will soon realise their mistake too.
Tip accordingly... if it was a good service tip and mention it to the snowsports school desk or Director. If it was a poor service don't tip, complain to the desk, Schools don't want a bad rep and want to give a good service.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| I definitely would not suggest that lower paid instructors are less deserving of tips, just felt that a lot of the debate was 'instructors don't get paid anything, they need the money', which at times is true, but frequently is not. |
I don't think people think the lower paid instructor is MORE deserving than the higher paid ones. I suspect it's got to more to do with, tipping a lower waged instructor makes a bigger difference in the instructor's income. So in turn it makes the 'tipper' (student) happier too.
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FAQ
