No, that quote didn't settle the debate, but if you read the whole thing, and especially the part I quoted in my post, you'll see that grip is strongly dependent on edge angle.
I did read it, honest guv, twice. Although it describes the pressure gradient throughout the turn it doesn't seem to say you shouldn't modify it somehow. You describe a turn whereby you float through transition and wait for pressure to start building up after the fall line. Now it may be the NZSIA position that this is how you have to ski but I didn't get that from this one chapter.
jimmer wrote:
'Pressuring' a flat ski through extending your legs, is not going to help you grip at all.
I agree.
jimmer wrote:
And as for rjs somehow maintaining even pressure throughout a turn, it's just not possible, at least not at any speed, which is what we are discussing.
I am a 'floater' most of the time, it's fun and relaxing. However I have been taught that (e.g. in a race course) you often want to create early pressure and feel 'heavy' through transition and pushing on the new outside leg is a part of that process. The main purpose is to bend the ski more and earlier and it assumes you already have established a platform to push off first. Timing is everything, too late and you just have to wait.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Kenny, agree with all that.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Kenny wrote:
jimmer wrote:
No, that quote didn't settle the debate, but if you read the whole thing, and especially the part I quoted in my post, you'll see that grip is strongly dependent on edge angle.
I did read it, honest guv, twice. Although it describes the pressure gradient throughout the turn it doesn't seem to say you shouldn't modify it somehow. You describe a turn whereby you float through transition and wait for pressure to start building up after the fall line. Now it may be the NZSIA position that this is how you have to ski but I didn't get that from this one chapter.
jimmer wrote:
'Pressuring' a flat ski through extending your legs, is not going to help you grip at all.
I agree.
jimmer wrote:
And as for rjs somehow maintaining even pressure throughout a turn, it's just not possible, at least not at any speed, which is what we are discussing.
I am a 'floater' most of the time, it's fun and relaxing. However I have been taught that (e.g. in a race course) you often want to create early pressure and feel 'heavy' through transition and pushing on the new outside leg is a part of that process. The main purpose is to bend the ski more and earlier and it assumes you already have established a platform to push off first. Timing is everything, too late and you just have to wait.
I think people are reading too much into what I mean by 'float', I don't mean that you are doing nothing in transition, just that the main purpose of the transition is to incline and set up for the pressure phase, which should be in the fallline. There's really no way to create a lot of pressure in the transition as gravity is almost as strong as centripetal force at that point, creating edge angles in order to bend the ski in the pressure phase is much more important.
Also, as we are discussing primarily short turns, extending your legs in the transition is going to be slower edge to edge than flexing, and result in later pressure/edge angles.
jimmer, Instead of telling people that stuff is impossible why not go out and try it for yourself.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rjs, just changing between pow skis and GS skis now, they are a World Cup ski from the Austrian team, if I don't incline Hard at the top of the turn, they do not turn.
rjs, just changing between pow skis and GS skis now, they are a World Cup ski from the Austrian team, if I don't incline Hard at the top of the turn, they do not turn.
I'm suggesting that if you don't pressure them at the top of the turn then they do not turn.
Whatever means you are using to generate inclination is generating pressure as a side effect, flexing one leg and extending the other for example, I just feel it is better to learn to judge whether there is enough pressure by itself.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jimmer wrote:
Kenny wrote:
jimmer wrote:
No, that quote didn't settle the debate, but if you read the whole thing, and especially the part I quoted in my post, you'll see that grip is strongly dependent on edge angle.
I did read it, honest guv, twice. Although it describes the pressure gradient throughout the turn it doesn't seem to say you shouldn't modify it somehow. You describe a turn whereby you float through transition and wait for pressure to start building up after the fall line. Now it may be the NZSIA position that this is how you have to ski but I didn't get that from this one chapter.
jimmer wrote:
'Pressuring' a flat ski through extending your legs, is not going to help you grip at all.
I agree.
jimmer wrote:
And as for rjs somehow maintaining even pressure throughout a turn, it's just not possible, at least not at any speed, which is what we are discussing.
I am a 'floater' most of the time, it's fun and relaxing. However I have been taught that (e.g. in a race course) you often want to create early pressure and feel 'heavy' through transition and pushing on the new outside leg is a part of that process. The main purpose is to bend the ski more and earlier and it assumes you already have established a platform to push off first. Timing is everything, too late and you just have to wait.
I think people are reading too much into what I mean by 'float', I don't mean that you are doing nothing in transition, just that the main purpose of the transition is to incline and set up for the pressure phase, which should be in the fallline. There's really no way to create a lot of pressure in the transition as gravity is almost as strong as centripetal force at that point, creating edge angles in order to bend the ski in the pressure phase is much more important.
There's more than one way to transition, but for sure getting them on edge is rather fundamental. You can argue it isn't strictly necessary or even desirable but it does happen, people are doing it.
jimmer wrote:
Also, as we are discussing primarily short turns, extending your legs in the transition is going to be slower edge to edge than flexing, and result in later pressure/edge angles.
This is a fair point. It's something the Americans and certainly Liggety pursue. Maybe this has contributed to his success with the more old skool GS boards and his relative muppetry in slalom.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rjs wrote:
jimmer wrote:
rjs, just changing between pow skis and GS skis now, they are a World Cup ski from the Austrian team, if I don't incline Hard at the top of the turn, they do not turn.
I'm suggesting that if you don't pressure them at the top of the turn then they do not turn.
Whatever means you are using to generate inclination is generating pressure as a side effect, flexing one leg and extending the other for example, I just feel it is better to learn to judge whether there is enough pressure by itself.
Ok, so we are moving away from the early grip focus a bit, but how do you reconcile your insistence that extending your legs to maintain pressure is a good idea with the fact that WC slalom skiers transition most of their turns with their legs flexed and their skis in the air?
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jimmer, Kenny, I realise the discussion has moved on, but why have we come back to short swings where vertical movement is avoided as opposed to GS turns etc. where it is necessary and pressure before the fall ine is more relevant? Also, is WC racing really relevant when the racer is right on the edge during their flailing leg moments.
However, I have to agree with Jimmer that to think of pushing the outer leg straight is not particularly useful as, when resisting the centrifugal and gravitational forces which build up in the turn (with a strong core, getting hips down etc.), you do need some flexibility to cope with lumps and bumps.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
beequin, Well, the topic of the thread was about getting grip in a short turn, basically all I have been saying all thread is that edge angle is the key to grip. Also, you misinterpreted me a little there, I don't think that the outside leg shouldn't be long and strong in the pressure phase, just that extending both legs at the same time in transition is unnecessary, especially in a short turn.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
jimmer, My mistake then - perhaps. I read the topic was early grip not just early grip in short turns - although the first vid pointed that way.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
beequin, The principles are the same for long and short turns. I think in terms of adding pressure by extending above the fall line and absorbing it by flexing below.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I never said that pressure above the fallline was impossible, just that it will always be less, and equal pressure throughout the turn is impossible. They also talk a lot about edge angle...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
beequin wrote:
jimmer, Kenny, I realise the discussion has moved on, but why have we come back to short swings where vertical movement is avoided as opposed to GS turns etc. where it is necessary and pressure before the fall ine is more relevant?
I stuck my oar in because I maintain it is possible to create pressure above the fall line. I wasn't too sure about the applicability to slalom but the video I posted seems to suggest it is or at least the US think so. Of course even for racers it isn't the only turn they need to be able to pull off.
beequin wrote:
Also, is WC racing really relevant when the racer is right on the edge during their flailing leg moments.
I certainly couldn't ski like that all day, it's hard work. But the video I posted he isn't on the edge and he is creating pressure above the fall line by pushing.
beequin wrote:
However, I have to agree with Jimmer that to think of pushing the outer leg straight is not particularly useful as, when resisting the centrifugal and gravitational forces which build up in the turn (with a strong core, getting hips down etc.), you do need some flexibility to cope with lumps and bumps.
I agree you don't want to lock that outside leg.
In my normal turn I release the edges, skis come back under me and out to the other side with a nice big edge angles (in my dreams) waiting for the pressure to build up. This turn demonstrated in the video involves actively creating pressure by using the legs and not waiting for it to happen. I think about it as a means of tightening the turn radius rather than grep per se.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jimmer wrote:
I never said that pressure above the fallline was impossible
True but you did say this earlier:
jimmer wrote:
The thing is that the pressure that skiers feel is not something they create, but a function of speed and edge angle, so you can affect it for a second though extension/flexion, but really it's something that is created through tipping your skis over, if you don't tip your skis, you won't feel pressure, and you won't get grip.
The bit in bold is incorrect IMO.
jimmer wrote:
just that it will always be less, and equal pressure throughout the turn is impossible.
The idea is that because of (amongst other things) the pressure you create above the fall line you get your direction earlier allowing you to straighten things out below the fall line so reducing the centrifugal force. Ruler flat equal? Improbable. More equal? Absolutely.
Ok, so explain to me how you can create pressure, with a flat ski going slow? Or just standing (for more than a millisecond). You can't, you can manage pressure through flexion/extension, but you can't create it without speed/edge angle.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jimmer wrote:
Ok, so explain to me how you can create pressure, with a flat ski going slow? Or just standing (for more than a millisecond). You can't, you can manage pressure through flexion/extension, but you can't create it without speed/edge angle.
If you would quote something I actually wrote then I could try to clarify it but I'm not interested in trying to tear down a straw man.
Ok, you felt my statement that 'the pressure skiers feel is not something they create, but a function of speed and edge angle' was incorrect, please elaborate.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Kenny wrote:
jimmer wrote:
just that it will always be less, and equal pressure throughout the turn is impossible.
The idea is that because of (amongst other things) the pressure you create above the fall line you get your direction earlier allowing you to straighten things out below the fall line so reducing the centrifugal force. Ruler flat equal? Improbable. More equal? Absolutely.
Ok, great, more equal, but you are still going to have a lot more pressure in the pressure/control phase than in the transition, hence why a lot of people (do you think I made this stuff up?), call the transition the float phase. I have no idea how anyone who's ever tipped a ski over hasn't felt this.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Phil McNichol can do a better job of explaining it than me. He came to Whistler to try and help us non athletes.
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Ok, so to clarify the debate somewhat,
What I have been trying to say so far is that tipping the ski creates grip and pressure, the faster you go, the more you can tip the ski, thus more speed/edge equals more pressure. I've never said that there can't be pressure in the transition, just that due to the lesser effect of centrifugal force, and the greater effect of gravity at that point in the turn, there can't be as much.
A thought experiment to illustrate my point is that of an incredibly steep slope, lets say 60 degrees, how could you create pressure before the fall line without being essentially upside down through inclination?
And also, just because I got some shots of me on my GS skis, here is some pressure in the fall line.
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Kenny,
Jeez haven't you got anything else to do with your time!
With all this analysis I'm glad I don't have to go skiing with you - oh hang on!!...
To make your point you can take a picture of the early pressure and grip I can get on my tails even when upside down if that helps
jimmer wrote:
A thought experiment to illustrate my point is that of an incredibly steep slope, lets say 60 degrees, how could you create pressure before the fall line without being essentially upside down through inclination?
Yep, I can demonstrate that too (no "essentially" about it)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 29-08-13 4:02; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
jimmer wrote:
Ok, so to clarify the debate somewhat,
What I have been trying to say so far is that tipping the ski creates grip and pressure, the faster you go, the more you can tip the ski, thus more speed/edge equals more pressure. I've never said that there can't be pressure in the transition, just that due to the lesser effect of centrifugal force, and the greater effect of gravity at that point in the turn, there can't be as much.
A thought experiment to illustrate my point is that of an incredibly steep slope, lets say 60 degrees, how could you create pressure before the fall line without being essentially upside down through inclination?
And also, just because I got some shots of me on my GS skis, here is some pressure in the fall line.
Nice suit .
If I could transpose myself into your picture this is what I would feel if I decided it was time to change direction. I am 100% balanced on my outside ski.
1. Normally I would 'soften' or retract the outside ski so releasing the pressure and just allow my body to topple over my skis/ skis come under me however you think about it. If I stay loosey goosy enough the skis tend to carry on out to the other side. A bit of foot pronation once they are out there to establish the edges and I'm good to go. I'm trying to do as little as possible and let external forces do all the work. This is also a good opportunity for a tactical pivot when the skis are light and flat-ish.
2. On the other hand if I am being shouted at by a grizzled race coach this is what I might likely to attempt. I start pushing on the little toe edge of that uphill ski simultaneously rolling it onto the big toe side. You could say I am moving to the new platform by pushing hard and I can do this because I am still in the pressure phase of the old turn (NZSIA terminology?). With a bit of skill (luck) I can keep this pressure going until the 'natural' pressure starts building up below the fall line of the new turn. Really loads up a race ski.
Now if you say aha it's still all about edging and harnessing external forces than I'm happy with that. Will have to think about 60 degree slopes thing.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stuarth wrote:
Yep, I can demonstrate that too (no "essentially" about it)
He doesn't mean the early pressure on your head as you cartwheel down West Cirque .
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
There is also the ski instructor vs racer mentality with turn shape. A race coach will yell at a ski instructor to 'get off your edges', 'keep 'em pointing down the hill'. A ski instructor will give a racer a hard time for not finishing their turns - pressure avoidance if you like.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Kenny,
Quote:
Phil McNichol can do a better job of explaining it
Super-instructive! Thanks for posting.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
kenny that Phil McNichol vid is great - thanks for posting it. Although I didn't say it at the time of the OP, I was really referring to getting grip in short turns rather than longs. As Martin Bell pointed out the key is the distinction between pivoted shorts as shown in the original video of Jaz Lamb and carved short turns as per the Hirscher clip.
Thanks all for your posts and helping with my (ongoing) ski education.
Andy
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
abd wrote:
kenny that Phil McNichol vid is great - thanks for posting it. Although I didn't say it at the time of the OP, I was really referring to getting grip in short turns rather than longs. As Martin Bell pointed out the key is the distinction between pivoted shorts as shown in the original video of Jaz Lamb and carved short turns as per the Hirscher clip.
Thanks all for your posts and helping with my (ongoing) ski education.
Andy
Yes, sorry about the thread drift.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
No worries kenny quite amusing observing the little spat between you and jimmer!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Pedantica wrote:
Kenny,
Quote:
Phil McNichol can do a better job of explaining it
Super-instructive! Thanks for posting.
That's the "Up & Over" drill that Scott and I use extensively. There's a reason I call it the 'magic drill'
rob@rar, yeah, it tied in brilliantly with the very last clinic I did with Scott, during which - not for the first time - he was forced to marvel at my obtuseness.
What I have been trying to say so far is that tipping the ski creates grip and pressure, the faster you go, the more you can tip the ski, thus more speed/edge equals more pressure. I've never said that there can't be pressure in the transition, just that due to the lesser effect of centrifugal force, and the greater effect of gravity at that point in the turn, there can't be as much.
A thought experiment to illustrate my point is that of an incredibly steep slope, lets say 60 degrees, how could you create pressure before the fall line without being essentially upside down through inclination?
And also, just because I got some shots of me on my GS skis, here is some pressure in the fall line.
Nice suit .
If I could transpose myself into your picture this is what I would feel if I decided it was time to change direction. I am 100% balanced on my outside ski.
1. Normally I would 'soften' or retract the outside ski so releasing the pressure and just allow my body to topple over my skis/ skis come under me however you think about it. If I stay loosey goosy enough the skis tend to carry on out to the other side. A bit of foot pronation once they are out there to establish the edges and I'm good to go. I'm trying to do as little as possible and let external forces do all the work. This is also a good opportunity for a tactical pivot when the skis are light and flat-ish.
2. On the other hand if I am being shouted at by a grizzled race coach this is what I might likely to attempt. I start pushing on the little toe edge of that uphill ski simultaneously rolling it onto the big toe side. You could say I am moving to the new platform by pushing hard and I can do this because I am still in the pressure phase of the old turn (NZSIA terminology?). With a bit of skill (luck) I can keep this pressure going until the 'natural' pressure starts building up below the fall line of the new turn. Really loads up a race ski.
Now if you say aha it's still all about edging and harnessing external forces than I'm happy with that. Will have to think about 60 degree slopes thing.
I hate that uniform, not only does it look rubbish, it is insulated, and it's hot as hell here. I assure you I look gangster as hell whilst not at work.
Not sure where 'pressure phase' came from, it's not in NZ manuals, I haven't worked in NZ for a while so ski with people from all over.
With your number 2 type transition, at some point between turns your skis will be flat, at that point, there is no centripetal force, and thus no added pressure other than your weight, extending you legs can only exert that weight, whilst when the ski is tipped centripetal force will exert a lot more. The only point I am making is that you can't just create pressure spontaneously, you can move or maintain it (changing weight from one ski to another or fore and aft for example), but if you don't have the right amount of edge angle, nothing is going to happen when you 'press' on the ski.
The 60 degree slope thing is just to make you think about how you could press on a ski (without sufficient edge angle), whilst your body is accelerating at a huge rate.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Pedantica, It was way beyond me ability wise, but I also took a look at the video out of idle curiosity. That first point was interesting - he was quite correct when pointed out that the flex of the ski needed to come from the tip if you wanted the ski to arc properly (which then gave him that platform to push on etc.) - that's something I wouldn't normally articulate in my mind, but clearly he is correct when you think about a ski bending into its expected arc in that way.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Megamum, that's good news - you agree with a US national team coach!
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Pedantica, OK, yes, it does read that way doesn't it - that wasn't my intention It just another of things that I never think about the process of, yet when it is actually articulated - like to the racers in that lesson it then seems to give the mind something to focus on - I bet they were all skiing consciously trying to make their skis bend like that - i.e. the mind set of visualising what was going on then translates into movements to make it happen and probably more so than if it hadn't been explained in that way. A bit like 'don't think of pink elephants'.
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jimmer wrote:
With your number 2 type transition, at some point between turns your skis will be flat, at that point, there is no centripetal force, and thus no added pressure other than your weight, extending you legs can only exert that weight, whilst when the ski is tipped centripetal force will exert a lot more.
I can't dispute any of that, I am not sure precisely the measurements of all those forces at the time. It might be interesting to rig up some sensors. Or not. My legs tell me there is a big difference in pressure between those two turns. What I can tell you is if I am somewhat late then not lot happens. If I get it right it feels like a shot-putter pushing themselves across the circle. You want to stay low as much as possible so it makes sense that as the ski flattens you 'hold fire' somewhat with the pushing for that brief microsecond. But if you're going to call that a 'float phase' then I'm not 'aving that .
jimmer wrote:
The only point I am making is that you can't just create pressure spontaneously, you can move or maintain it (changing weight from one ski to another or fore and aft for example), but if you don't have the right amount of edge angle, nothing is going to happen when you 'press' on the ski.
I think I have agreed with that earlier. A couple of times .
What I would say is that there is a significantly different pressure profile for those two turns which is a result of my inputs. More than just a quick pulse.
jimmer wrote:
The 60 degree slope thing is just to make you think about how you could press on a ski (without sufficient edge angle), whilst your body is accelerating at a huge rate.
We all have a speed limit at which we simply aren't athletic enough to keep up, just like running down a hill your legs are just pushing on thin air! Mine is quite low . Then it's all about speed control!
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