 Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
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So by the sounds of it then, once you get to be a 'better' skier you never resort to using a snowplough? (Well if you did you would not find it hard to demo eh?).
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There's quite a difference (rightly or wrongly) between the sort of thoughtless snowplough you use occasionally in 'real skiing' (ie just make a triangle with the skis and carry on as normal) and a proper demo showing (exaggerating) the correct posture/movements/etc for clients. When you're not used to snowploughing 'properly' and haven't for years, it can take quite a bit of work to get it nailed. |
That is because beginners haven't yet been introduced to the concepts of pressure and rotation.
At the start a snow plough is all they know to control speed. It is the first thing you learn after straight running.
So 'begineer' and 'expert' ploughs are indeed different turns.
FWIW : Plough / Stem Christy is a good tool for expert skiers to have in their bag for nasty breakable crust 
It not just a beginners turn !! |
Totally agree, just saying that as when most decent skiers snowplough it's usual in 'not critical situations' so most (me included) will do it much more lazily than when 'skiing properly,' so it's quite a different plough to what you'd want to demo for your clients.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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clarky999, so you mean a stem christie?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
do it much more lazily
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clarky999, I have found myself in recent years ploughing much more properly (I think, could be wrong...) as it's more efficient.
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under a new name, didn't you like my technical term, then? ('Sort-of-stem')
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Plough Parallel = the new name for Stem-Christie.
The same turn : just re-badged (10 years ago) by BASI to show its role in the 'central theme' progression between plough turns and proper parallel turns.
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Haggis_Trap, ah. I've always wanted to know the difference. Thanks!
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Haggis_Trap, somewhat counter intuitive I feel...
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
3 good skiers failed the l1 my wife did due to not being able to do 'the basics' at a slow speed to required standards |
No offence but if they can't snowplough to L1 level I think I doubt your judgement of what a 'good skier' is! |
Ok I was being flippant, "They" thought "they" were good skiers as they couldski blacks/reds at speed etc etc. I never saw them ski as I wasn't on the course. Apparently they were fine at longs and shorts.
The point being the "easy" snowplough (as others have said) is often harder then you think....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, ah; so Plough Parallel = Pizza n Chips
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Plough parallel is similar to a stem christie but a bit different. took me a while to get used to it anyway. plough turns really emphasised rotational movement when I did the L1 - you are NOT taught (as I was when I first learned) to turn by putting your weight on the outside ski while you are ploughing. plough parallels also emphasise rotational movement and you just allow your inside ski to become parallel with the outside as you go through the turn. when i was taught the stem christie, you would start with the plough, put all your weight on the outside ski and pick up your inside ski and plonk it down parallel. much less subtle movement
i actually find old school stems much more useful in difficult snow or as a way of starting a turn on steep/narrow slopes. i don't really "get" why plough turns and plough parallels are taught in a way which emphasises rotation now. maybe i was just getting the wrong end of the stick 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Arno wrote: |
plough parallels also emphasise rotational movement and you just allow your inside ski to become parallel with the outside as you go through the turn. when i was taught the stem christie, you would start with the plough, put all your weight on the outside ski and pick up your inside ski and plonk it down parallel. much less subtle movement
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^ lifting the inside ski makes you inherently unstable (all your weight goes onto one ski during the lift).
lifting the ski also means you don't get that "basic parallel skidding sensation" during end of the turn.
the idea with plough parallel is that learners match the inside ski earlier in the turn.
with practise they will eventually be skiing almost parallel with only a small wedge at the start of the turn.
at the end of the day there are only 3 ways to turn a ski (edge, pressure and rotation).
a good skier will use a blend of all 3 elements depending their desired turn shape.
the idea of central theme is to introduce these 3 concepts during the progression leading up to parallel turns.
plough parallel = stem christie = pizza n chips
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In funky snow you might well want to be lifting the inside ski so the "outdated" technique has its place. The main problem with methodologies is that for necessary simplicity they synthethise into one way of doing things and then as you advance you need to build out or adapt the variants.
The interesting thing to me is that there seems very much a difference between people who initially learnt on straight skis compared to those that have only ever skied on shaped. It was a real lightbulb moment for me when I realised that "new" skiers really had to be encouraged to get weight onto the outside ski, while in the old world it was the only way to turn.
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fatbob, Why would you lift the inside ski, even in funky snow I'd prefer to either jump both out of the snow, or do a plough parallel with both on the deck, even in breakable crust!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Arno, It is so long ago that I was taught stem turns but I seem to recollect that the lifting and placing down was exaggeration for teaching effect...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FWIW the main reason beginners are sometimes taught to lift the inside ski is when on dry slopes.
Joins between 2 section of dendix matt will catch the inside ski (unless the learner has learned to roll inside ski onto correct edge before matching).
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Poster: A snowHead
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under a new name, i must have taken my teacher very literally still, it seemed to be all about weighting the outside ski back in the day and now it seems to be about pointing your ski tips where you want to go
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis_Trap, I don't think I ever had a lesson at Hillend...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| clarky999, so you mean a stem christie? |
I don't know, I've never done the BASI stuff. 'Carven (Curven?) Grundstuffe' in the Austrian system IIRC.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Arno wrote: |
Plough parallel is similar to a stem christie but a bit different. took me a while to get used to it anyway. plough turns really emphasised rotational movement when I did the L1 - you are NOT taught (as I was when I first learned) to turn by putting your weight on the outside ski while you are ploughing. plough parallels also emphasise rotational movement and you just allow your inside ski to become parallel with the outside as you go through the turn. when i was taught the stem christie, you would start with the plough, put all your weight on the outside ski and pick up your inside ski and plonk it down parallel. much less subtle movement
i actually find old school stems much more useful in difficult snow or as a way of starting a turn on steep/narrow slopes. i don't really "get" why plough turns and plough parallels are taught in a way which emphasises rotation now. maybe i was just getting the wrong end of the stick |
Still taught by weighting the outside ski in the Austrian system (or was when I did the Anwaerter in 2008), though very much sliding the uphill ski in rather than stepping it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Please remember that the video skimottaret posted was the FIRST day of the course.
I was watching too; most were far better on day 2!
I've not been in the rest of the week (at home ill) but for balance it would be nice to see the Video taken at the end of the week to show where you need to get to and who passed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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under a new name, L1 was introduced at around the time SSE, SSS etc were trying to combine their qualifications. It was designed to be in between the levels of Club and ASSI and address the requirements of the UK domestic ski slopes and clubs to have a lower level instructor qualification than the standard of the current L2. It replaced the Trainee Instructor course that you used to have to do before doing the Instructor course (now L2). It is a similar course to the Trainee course, but now it is pass or fail, and if you pass you are qualified to teach low level skiers on an artificial slope. In both courses they did / do advise you how much more training you need to do before you attempt your L2.
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Gobsmacked!!!! How many not wearing a helmet!!!
And looking at the videos there is hope for me yet!!
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beanie1, I think I knew the timeline of that but had never paid any attention to the detail 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I understand that traditionally an aspirant instructor training from L1 up to L2 was viewed as a "Trainee Instructor" in the BASI system prior to some restructuring of the gradings Puzzled
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Yes, when I did level 1 back in about 2006, it was called "Trainee Instructor". Level 2 was "Instructor".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Haggis_Trap,
plough parallel = stem christie = pizza n chips
Sorry -- Plough Parallel and stem Christie are not the same. Stem Christie inside ski is stepped/lifted alongside turning outside ski. Plough Parallel ski stays on snow and is rotated to match the oustide.
Plough Parallel = Pizza and Chunkky Chips
Stem Christie = Pizza and French Fries
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^ my understanding was that they changed the name simply so it fitted with the central theme progression better.
plough -> plough parallel -> parallel.
happy to accept its a different turn if you insist : though the term "stem christie" is kind of old school and virtually redundant these days.
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It always makes me laugh when people say they did basi qualifications to help improve there skiing/snowboarding! Why does nobody ever tell the truth and just say its so they can tell people down the pub that there a qualified ski/snowboard instructor?!
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You know it makes sense.
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I started instructor exams to improve my skiing. Still get slightly embarrassed to say ski instructor when people ask me what I do.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, I'm not suprised
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mosha Marc, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I started instructor exams to improve my skiing. Still get slightly embarrassed to say ski instructor when people ask me what I do. |
yeah yeah, but the girls love it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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eddiethebus, still waiting for that moment, I have to confess...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, we'll all have to remember to squeal when we next see you
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, please don't!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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*swoon
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Not my intention to stir anything up here, but i'd take a good bet that all L1 instruction and all L1 examinations and all L1 re-accreditation / training refresher etc probably accounts for 50+% of all BASI instructor and BASI association earnings and for L2, similarly, training/instruction, examination, training refresher etc, i would guess another 30%. Without the earnings from L1 and L2's, i expect BASI association wouldn't be the professional body responsible for training and accreditation supplying snowsports instructors worldwide that it is today. Clearly, the L1 and L2 income stream is massively important. I saw Mark Jones, the BASI L4 trainer on the BASI stand at the Ski Show a couple of years ago. He was actively looking for people interested in training to become a ski instructor! As BASI L3 and L4 aren't that interested in teaching beginners, this system works. We all need an income.
I don't ever want to knock aspiration - the stuff that gets you out of bed. I've heard it said many times from successful BASI L1's, that only at BASI L2, can you be considered as a good piste skier and at that level you can make a fair contribution widening beginners / early intermediates learning. I don't have any problem with BASI L1's teaching beginners (indoors / dry slopes), boots on / off, walking up hills, getting up easily, safety rules etc and teaching, if done with passion/enthusiasm/commitment the plough, plough parallel etc. I see some L1's with less passion (and without much 'natural sporty ability' ) than i would hope to see sometimes - perhaps, i should walk a mile in their boots before i make comments about passion though - fair enough.
IF my estimates, the amount of L1 contributions to BASI coffers is anywhere vaguely right, then L1 standard and it's rational / reason for being will be defended until Armageddon. Training like offered by iOS is really a good thing, Rob and Scott are good blokes and know their stuff upto a high but not the highest grade - which is fine as their both committed to advancement for their clients and achieve good results IMO. My moan is, i just wish there was a national recognised 'SKILLS' badge / grading system that could be given out to mark a standard achieved in any type of skiing that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH AN 'INSTRUCTION' QUALIFICATION. I find it odd indeed that nothing like this exists ( SH's please say otherwise if known) and basically suspect in is not in ANY worldwide ski association, financial interest to do this - slightly depressed, i'm sure this is a missed opportunity somehow. Rant over. Contributions welcome.
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| Tim Heeney wrote: |
| My moan is, i just wish there was a national recognised 'SKILLS' badge / grading system that could be given out to mark a standard achieved in any type of skiing that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH AN 'INSTRUCTION' QUALIFICATION. I find it odd indeed that nothing like this exists ( SH's please say otherwise if known) and basically suspect in is not in ANY worldwide ski association, financial interest to do this - slightly depressed, i'm sure this is a missed opportunity somehow. Rant over. Contributions welcome. |
to what end? I snowboard for fun as do the skiiers that i ride with. The idea of getting somesort of skills badge is really weird 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Tim Heeney wrote: |
| ... i just wish there was a national recognised 'SKILLS' badge / grading system that could be given out to mark a standard achieved in any type of skiing that HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH AN 'INSTRUCTION' QUALIFICATION. I find it odd indeed that nothing like this exists ( SH's please say otherwise if known) and basically suspect in is not in ANY worldwide ski association, financial interest to do this - slightly depressed, i'm sure this is a missed opportunity somehow. Rant over. Contributions welcome. |
A number of people that I teach have said the same thing. They are committed to improving their skiing and would like an objective measure of how well they are doing but really have no interest in undertaking instructor exams. The Flèche fun races that ESF run (NASTAR in the US) might go someway to providing an objective measure, but not everyone wants to be tested on their ability to ski gates.
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They have pure skiing attainment certificates in Japan, and even competitions where only your technique is judged (not a race), never heard of it anywhere else though.
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FAQ
