 Poster: A snowHead
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| Lizzard wrote: |
Masque, they think those people skiing about the pistes with a TO host will book lessons or mountain guides instead (this view stated by the head of the ESF here in 2Alpes). They are clearly entirely wrong, but there's no telling them that. In fact it will merely lose them a small amount of revenue, as one of the things ski hosts frequently do is suggest to guests that they might benefit from a private lesson.
All that's going to happen here is that instructors lost a bit of cash and TO staff keep doing exactly the same as usual, only wearing their own jackets. This is what happened last time, and why I spent my first season ski guiding incognito. Whole thing is pointless. |
Kind of happens already. A well known TO, lets call them "Bristol" for argument's sake, have met opposition regarding "ski escorting" in some resorts in France, including VT. They therefore provide escorting services in those resorts but with the staff not in uniform.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Allegedly....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dav wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
Masque, they think those people skiing about the pistes with a TO host will book lessons or mountain guides instead (this view stated by the head of the ESF here in 2Alpes). They are clearly entirely wrong, but there's no telling them that. In fact it will merely lose them a small amount of revenue, as one of the things ski hosts frequently do is suggest to guests that they might benefit from a private lesson.
All that's going to happen here is that instructors lost a bit of cash and TO staff keep doing exactly the same as usual, only wearing their own jackets. This is what happened last time, and why I spent my first season ski guiding incognito. Whole thing is pointless. |
Kind of happens already. A well known TO, lets call them "Bristol" for argument's sake, have met opposition regarding "ski escorting" in some resorts in France, including VT. They therefore provide escorting services in those resorts but with the staff not in uniform. |
Again, maybe you can see why the French might feel that lines might be blurred by the TOs.
If there was ever an accident involving clients of "Bristol", on the slopes, regardless of how it happened, it would be interesting to see if any injured party were to claim damages against "Bristol" how the French courts would react. Nearly worth booking a holiday with "Bristol" at VT going out with a non-uniformed escort (ooh err misses) and tripping up.
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| dobby wrote: |
| eng_ch, monopolies are frowned on, but can be allowed to exist if the monopoly can be "justified" in some way (e.g. patents, trade marks, copyright) |
Yeah, but as individual countries have to recognise other countries qualifications in such professions as doctors, I do not understand how france gets away with restricting UK certified instructors under EU law. You would have thought the skill of doctors would be more safety critical than ski instructors.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| If there was ever an accident involving clients of "Bristol", on the slopes, regardless of how it happened, it would be interesting to see if any injured party were to claim damages against "Bristol" how the French courts would react. Nearly worth booking a holiday with "Bristol" at VT going out with a non-uniformed escort (ooh err misses) and tripping up. |
They'd probably go tits up.
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Last January with Crystal . . . yes for the first time in years I was with a TO  (wasn't THAT bad) But they made it clear . . . at least to those listening . . . that 'Tom' was available to ski with YOU rather than you could ski with TOM . . . a subtle yet I think distinct difference . . . and no sign of TO branding but wearing a seriously nauseous neon pink jacket. So yes the TO's are already working around this.
.....allegedly
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hughbedo, they don't restrict UK certified instructors. The requirements for a full-cert BASI ski instructor are near-identical to those for a French one. Which is why full-cert BASI instructors can teach in France.
In any case, France's interpretation of this EU law is that they will accept any EU qualification which is equivalent to their own.
And on top of that, they actually have a special exemption on safety grounds for ski instructors, mountain guides/leaders and, I believe, diving instructors!
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Another post going against some of the rather populist, xenophobic and inaccurate postings.
Fact: The action was brought by the French Sports Ministry and would have taken place IRRESPECTIVE of the ESF. I know the French sports ministry officials and gendarmes concerned who carried out the checks on the pistes.
The French "Code de Sport" is quite clear and the case against Le Ski would appear to have simply upheld the law as it stands. You can debate the rights and wrongs of this law as long as you wish however it's highly unlikely to change.
If you have the right qualification or the recognised equivalent there's no problem working in France and the Sports Ministry officials have been extremely helpful in my personal experience. They are not anti-British however you need to have the right attitude. Remember that you happen to be visitors or guests in their country and conduct yourself accordingly.
Note to self: "Take cover!"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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hughbedo, I think protectionism lives and thrives in England as well. For a french person to practice Law in the UK, I believe, they have to take a test called a QLTS, otherwise they can only be a para-legal. (Might not be 100% right here). The wonderful thing is I think it also applies to a scottish lawyer wanting to practice in England.
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Mark Warner were very obviously hosting around La Plagne over Xmas/New Year and not being very subtle, wearing full Mark Warner uniform, pulling his group to the side of the piste in a semi circle around him and addressing the group, from a distance I thought it was an instructor....
MW obviously have no concerns maybe their hosts have an ESF qualification..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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marksavoie, What prompted the checks and were they at all or targeted resorts/TOs?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FFS everyone. We're not talking about instructors, guides or any other type of qualified personnel here. What the TOs are offering is no more than an animated piste map.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
Mark Warner were very obviously hosting around La Plagne over Xmas/New Year and not being very subtle, wearing full Mark Warner uniform, pulling his group to the side of the piste in a semi circle around him and addressing the group, from a distance I thought it was an instructor....
MW obviously have no concerns maybe their hosts have an ESF qualification.. |
I know the TO's are carrying on as normal until the ruling comes into effect which I would think will not be this season.
As to been an independent ski host errr.... Check out my sig. My blog will keep you up to date how it is going. Sorry for self promotion.
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You know it makes sense.
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emwmarine, I'm not so sure that's protectionism. More ensuring that the lawyer you talk to does actually know the law.
But it doesn't stop anyone having a go themselves or to use a non qualified person to help them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Dwarf Vader, you utter tart! How dare you flaunt a grin that smug . . .  So the idea has merit then, good on you.
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Poster: A snowHead
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emwmarine, erm, the law in England and Wales is a teeny weeny bit different from that in France. Don't think requiring a lawyer to know the law in his or her jursdiction of practice is protectionism (although I would agree that some aspects of legal training and the legal profession are protectionist)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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AND the lawyers are in the house!
. . . The plan worked lads, now who's got the guns and be quick about it . . .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| marksavoie, What prompted the checks and were they at all or targeted resorts/TOs? |
Checks are often done, randomly. AIUI a lot of it has to do with the attitude of the checkee at the time as to whether a blind eye is turned. There is also a question over the fact that the host in question was being paid less than French minimum wage which was an additional reason to bring the case.
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feef, I can see a minimum wage issue . . . and I can imaging a brit with less than stellar French being lippy to a kermit questioning . . . bad scene all round and no surprise it's been brought to this point.
I think the future will be interesting . . . of course there'll be dodging and bodging in attempt to circumvent whatever the ruling comes down as. Of course it could be in favor of the TOs.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dobby wrote: |
| emwmarine, erm, the law in England and Wales is a teeny weeny bit different from that in France. Don't think requiring a lawyer to know the law in his or her jursdiction of practice is protectionism (although I would agree that some aspects of legal training and the legal profession are protectionist) |
and the French mountain environment is different to the British hills and Hemel fridge.
gets his coat.....
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| dobby wrote: |
| emwmarine, erm, the law in England and Wales is a teeny weeny bit different from that in France. Don't think requiring a lawyer to know the law in his or her jursdiction of practice is protectionism (although I would agree that some aspects of legal training and the legal profession are protectionist) |
and the French mountain environment is different to the British hills and Hemel fridge. |
But not necessarily different from a Swiss mountain environment or an Italian mountain environment or an Austrian mountain environment... Unless you're going to start requiring different qualifications for every valley in the Alps
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emwmarine, hardly a getting one's coat observation. There's "protectionism" everywhere; some of it is justified, some of it is not. This is not. The local French authority's argument is pretty lame, unless it can produce some sort of evidence that either the activities of the so-called guides are leading to safety problems above and beyond what may be expected on the slopes or the guides are teaching.
Btw I have had very good lessons from the esf and have no axe to grind with the esf.
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You have to wonder where the French think the line is drawn. A hell of a lot of skiing on holiday, particularly when groups travel, is done by having 1 or 2 that read a piste map and the rest follow; so informal guiding is extremely commonplace. On all of winter seasons I've done I've had friends come visit me, and I've skied recreationally with them and essentially guided around the mountain. Last year a group of 7 friends that came to see me actually stayed in one of the chalets I was managing, so when i skied with them I was effectively guiding my customers around the mountain. Now normally you'd argue that that shouldn't be a problem at all, but under this legal challenge it suddenly becomes a very grey area.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Whas it part of the job you were being paid for?
No = not a problem.
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altis, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dav,
I think you're missing the point.
The guiding offered by many TO's is not informal, it's part of the services offered (swapping jacket makes no difference at all). This means there is world of difference between a group of mates being led around by the most experienced member of the group (or the one who can read a piste map) and a TO guide.
Regardless of the number of times that the outward similarity to an informal guiding of friends is pointed out this is simply not what the TO offer.
If you want to offer a guiding service this is fine, BUT you need to employ qualified people to perform the duty.
If these TO’s didn’t understand that what they were doing was illegal they wouldn't be so desperately trying to hide it from the authorities by coming up with other names for it (hosting, leading, etc). Regardless of how they try and cover up their activities we all know it’s just mountain guiding by unqualified people.
At the end of the day they know what they are doing is against French law and whether you agree with the law is irrelevant.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Wayne wrote: |
Dav,
If you want to offer a guiding service this is fine, BUT you need to employ qualified people to perform the duty.
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And what qualification is that? To host on piste and not to teach?
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Regardless of our views on what is and isn't guiding, it remains the case that in France you have to be qualified in some way to get employment boiling eggs so rather than an outright ban, an expensive (and probably inaccessible) training course to be a 'piste leader' will be the probable outcome in the long run.
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You know it makes sense.
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Summary:
Tour ops have staff showing customers routes round some easy pistes whilst chatting in a relaxed manner.
ESF complain that French law "states" that you need to be "qualified" if employed to take people round some easy pistes whilst chatting in a relaxed manner.
Ministry of Justice takes it up.
There is no such relevant qualification (10 minutes with a piste map and highlighter and list of what you're not allowed to do).
Only related qualification is FEMPS Euro Pro cartel fully qualified Moniteur National who has trained for years and done ski racing.
Will have to make it that then.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wayne, Here's an analogy for you. Wandering around Paris is no less dangerous than sliding around a marked and prepared piste . . . are the TO guides/leaders/hosts going to need to be qualified in some way to shepherd a bunch of fat elderly Yanks around French cities, will they be subject to the same ruling?
I have a minor vested interest in this as I see a remotely possible business opportunity from this side of the pond. I agree that the moment a TO host steps past the piste edge they should be in deep doodoo but the piste itself is nothing more than a street.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 11-01-13 12:11; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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But, some TO guides/leader/hosts do take you into easy off-piste or itineries if asked and if the group's okay to do it.
At least they used to.
If that's the French law then fine; either work within the law, challenge it or don't do it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just wondering, is a host responsible for the group? I mean, if one of them does something stupid such as hits another skier or damages part of the piste equipment, the person responsible under French law might be the host, no?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mosha Marc, Then I agree with the French, there is NOTHING safe about stepping outside the poles boundaries and the TO host has no business taking anyone there no matter how benign it may be.
Using my analogy above it's no different than a tour guide escorting yer Granny who's on a WI jolly off the pretty street and onto a factory production floor without a factory representative to not just tell them about the product but to watch and advise on what is safe or not.
I'm warming to the French on this . . . 
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just a reply to the thread title. good! i'm personally sick of these UK business operating like this. legal or not it's an ethical thing
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Like I said
| Wayne wrote: |
| whether you agree with the law is irrelevant. |
On piste, off piste, it's all the same.
| slikedges wrote: |
| There is no such relevant qualification. |
Yes there is. Go to the BASI (or UIAGM) website and you'll see it.
Do a bit of training, get the badge, fill in some forms, etc and you'll have no problems.
| Masque wrote: |
| Wayne, Here's an analogy for you. Wandering around Paris is no less dangerous than sliding around a marked and prepared piste . . . are the TO guides/leaders/hosts going to need to be qualified in some way to shepherd a bunch of fat elderly Yanks around French cities, will they be subject to the same ruling? |
I don't have a clue if you need a badge to guide in Paris. But you do on the ski slope. Just because you don’t want to spend the time getting the badge is also irrelevant.
Can we all agree that:
All TO’s know full well that (unqualified) guiding is illegal on the French Ski slopes
The vast majority of ski guides (or whatever you want to call them today) are no qualified to do the job they are being paid for and so are operating illegally.
Most ski guide simply can’t ski well enought to guide anyone anywhere, or they wouldn’t be ski guiding
The law in France says this that or the other and the fact that you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean you don’t have to stick to it
etc
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Actually the right response to stupid rules is to turn a blind eye to people ignoring them (and people will always contravene stupid rules, in fact where we see large proportions of society contravening certain rules, these rules are always the stupid ones), or to make them more sensible so more will adhere. So if they win the French can either let ski-hosting continue or create a more reasonable qualification. They'd probably end up doing the latter, rather than stopping it and hoping tour ops will use ESF instructors, but the course will probably cost more than the 10 minutes and cup of coffee it should cost.
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| Wayne wrote: |
Most ski guide simply can’t ski well enought to guide anyone anywhere, or they wouldn’t be ski guiding
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Newsflash - not everyone wants to teach. If you're going to take that tack then we're into "those who can, do - those who can't, teach".
Popcorn now in hand
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| slikedges wrote: |
| There is no such relevant qualification. |
Yes there is. Go to the BASI (or UIAGM) website and you'll see it.
Do a bit of training, get the badge, fill in some forms, etc and you'll have no problems. |
Where? I've just looked through both sites there is nothing there about On piste Hosting/guiding. THe only qualiforcation I have found is the Scottish one which is not recognised abroad.
| Quote: |
Can we all agree that:
All TO’s know full well that (unqualified) guiding is illegal on the French Ski slopes |
Off piste agreed
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| The vast majority of ski guides (or whatever you want to call them today) are no qualified to do the job they are being paid for and so are operating illegally. |
Back to what qualification?
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| Most ski guide simply can’t ski well enought to guide anyone anywhere, or they wouldn’t be ski guiding |
Utter crap, I have worked/skied with only one or two that were not strong skiers, but after a month of constant skiing they were up to standard. The majority are good skiers.
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The law in France says this that or the other and the fact that you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean you don’t have to stick to it
etc |
I agree that the law of the land must be followed and I think the current process will define this.
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FAQ
