 Poster: A snowHead
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You may feel differently about a risk assessment visit if an accident were to happen to a child because a proper risk assessment wasn't carried out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just a heads up...Here are two e-mail I received from two employees or now former employees of the company regarding our unpaid wages for our week of Instructing.
"Quite rightly you acknowledge that I am not involved with SE and I am sorry to receive your e-mail, but please be advised that I had and still do not have any indication of Skiing Europe finances or their position - I have always worked part time and remote from SE offices and as such did not have and still do not have any idea of SE finances- I personally am owed virtually an entire seasons wages, and I know that a colleage who is in a similiar position to me, is also owed a lot of money , as are many instructors and Reps - I was given assurances as to the finances of SE and accepted them as such. I suggest that you pursue you legitimate claim direct with Chris Reynard who is the owner of SE- I have copied this to him for info and action." - Received April 10, 2011
"The only concrete answer we here in the office can give you is: I am being made redundant as of 5pm today so I wouldn’t hold your breath.
I have forwarded this email to Chris and asked him to deal with it as he is the only one who deals with it but I wouldn’t expect a reply too soon.
As for any other member of staff in this office I do not know what their situation is" - received April 13, 2011
So, it doesn't leave those hotels, instructors, coach companies, ect, to likely to received any renumeration. One has to wonder where the funds from the schools have gone. As our shool paid in full, but yet none of the vendors for the trip have been paid. When the head office says "don't hold your breath" regarding our payment, it doesn't look like a very good sign.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hells Bells, Many thanks for the link and i note that the word is "strongly reccomended" not a "legal requirement" So to put a legal hat on this and we are in court i could be deemed to have been swayed to take a trip with this tour operator based on the inducements on offer and not based on an unbiased criteria. Had the school payed for it then it would be a different matter, how many schools made these trips at their own expense?
So we all know skiing is a risk associated activity, we all know that staying in a hotel has risks associated with it, we all know that crossing the road in a country that drives on the wrong side of the road has risks but surely we do not need to take a special free trip to establish what is the blatanly obvious and this is how it could be viewed in court.
I have just spoken to my contact at the school that are travelling on an organised trip to South Africa to play cricket, another sport that has many risks and posed the question, have they been on a risk assesment trip. "no as it was not deemed neccesary" if the tour operator had offered a free trip for you to go and have a look would you have gone "absolutely".
I really feel for these kids and i want the parents to get their money back but it is also worth highlighting the possible ammunition that may be thrown at the schools should this toss** CR end up in court.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| leedsunited, When this is not practical,the group leader should make enquiries to satisfy themselves that the accommodation is suitable for the group", |
Just a thought but perhaps in light of the current situtaion the policy should be ammended to read "satisfy themselves that the proposed tour operator is solvent"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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leedsunited, or Bonded?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| You may feel differently about a risk assessment visit if an accident were to happen to a child because a proper risk assessment wasn't carried out. |
Accidents are part of life, if we carried out a risk assesment for everything our children did we would never go out the house.
It is exactly these types of policy that are killing our country, cant have a street party because you have not carried out a risk assesment, cant have the traditional pancake tossing race anymore because we wont isure you.
It is all about people mitigating themselves from legal action which is unfortunately a hamgover from the USA's litigation culture.
When i went on my school skiing trips none of this bolloxs existed and it never hurt anybody!
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Hells Bells, come on that is far too sensible - the knives are out for the teachers as they are an easy target - Mr leedsunited has an extremely poor opinion of them, therefore it must be true! 
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I wonder if any of these "risk assessments" included an evaluation of the the company itself - what I've seen here here suggests to me that there are some who accepted the task (and were paid in kind to do it) to assess the safety /suitability of the holidays did not do that effectively - as Hells Bells, document says "The single most important factor in ensuring the safety of participants involved in an Educational Visit or activity is the competence of the group leader." and asks "Is the leader competent in risk assessment and risk management?". That doesn't stop any of them being good people who try to do their honest best - unlike the main culprit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"One has to wonder where the funds from the schools have gone"
Perhaps his £1m house and other properties that he owns - might be a good starting place to look. However, once Reynard is declared bankrupt it looks like the insurance company will pay up - so it will be for them, SE's employees and the trustee in bankruptcy to pursue Reynard's assets.
Leedsunited and other teacher bashers
I very much doubt whether or not teachers have been on inspection visits and whether such visits were necesary - will have any bearing on any prosecution by the Crown (this cannot be done by a class action) for fraudulent trading by Reynard, especially given that it common practice among most companies offering skiing holidays. Reynard has not run out of money and failed to meet his commitments because he offered such inspection visits. You also talk as though perks do not exist in the private sector and as though suppliers never buy customers nice lunches etc. As I've said before if you want to engage in teacher bashing there are always the Daily Mail forums.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| Hells Bells, come on that is far too sensible - the knives are out for the teachers as they are an easy target - Mr leedsunited has an extremely poor opinion of them, therefore it must be true! |
Perrrrlease as i have stated many times i do not have a poor opinion of teachers, i will say it again i do not have a poor opinion of teachers, and this is not teacher bashing, it is about poor kids not getting a holiday and how those schools can best be armed to take on CR
Some of you need to get with the real world and realise that people have effectivelly taken bribes for using this company and others if it is correct that it is the norm in the industry, it is just that now people are hiding behind the words "risk assesment" to justify it. As i asked earlier, if this risk assesment is so important how many schools paid for it out of their own funds or how many teachers paid for it out of their own pockets, how many trips also involved the teachers partner?
If schools are going to take this man on then they will need to start reading and hearing things that they may not like.
It may hurt you to accept but that excuse "risk assesment" would not stand up in a court of law! A good lawyer is going to have a field day with this if it ends up in court
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Stephen101,
i am not bashing teachers, if u took your head from up your backside for a moment you would see that.
Live with the facts a bribe is a bribe, in the private sector yes you do have nice lunches but as the old saying goes there is no such thing as a "free lunch" corporate companies have Ethical policies and gifts above a certain value must be declared, if they are fine, if not and you are found out it influenced a decision then you will pay the consequences, if i was offered a free holiday however i dressed it up, it would be established if it was really neccesary before it was approved "risk assesment" would not cut it.
Local Goverement and authourities have clear guidelines of which i would expect LEA's to be the same, do not accept gifts of any kind, this could be used against anybody taking CR on.
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| lightningdan wrote: |
| http://www.skiing-europe.com/preview.htm |
And it reads
"To this end we make the following offer: That for groups of only 20 Paying places the Leader is invited to come on our Preview Week, where all travel and accommodation on a Dinner, Bed and Breakfast basis and guiding, if required, is completely free. Ski lessons at just £70 per week (beginners only). Partners are most welcome at a cost of just £195 on the same basis."
An inducement if i have ever seen one, i rest my case M'lurd your witness.
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You know it makes sense.
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Don't public sector organisations have to buy through OGC accredited organisations? Is there a market for an OGC accredited ski TO, answerable to higher powers than a few angry headteachers and possibly someone from the local council or LEA? Seems like it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Monium wrote: |
| Don't public sector organisations have to buy through OGC accredited organisations? Is there a market for an OGC accredited ski TO, answerable to higher powers than a few angry headteachers and possibly someone from the local council or LEA? Seems like it. |
Very good point, it would certainly eleviate, as much as is possible, this type of thing happening again.
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Poster: A snowHead
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leedsunited
"have Ethical policies and gifts above a certain value must be declared" Are you aware of circumstances where they have not been - before you resort to such unfounded allegations as "Some of you need to get with the real world and realise that people have effectivelly taken bribes for using this company"
I very much doubt that a court would accept that a "strongly recommended" inspection visit amounted to a bribe. But from what I've seen you really do have a limited understanding of how the courts work in practice. Taking on Reynard will be a matter for the criminal courts - I very much doubt that anyone expects much in the way of financial recovery from Reynard.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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just google "inspection visits school skiing trips" before making further wild allegations
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rayscoops
Yes it probably is - but double standards are not a criminal offence as some would apply, otherwise most people would have criminal records by now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Stephen101,
What a load of bolloxs, inspection trip, risk assesment, - read free trip paid for by providing company that is talikng x amount from you to use their services. The private sector is one thing and you may not like how it operates but it has a framework of rules. Goverment sections also have rules and accepting free trips i think breaks those rules unless of course you dress it up with the words "risk assesment" Call it what you want it is a bribe end of
As i said earlier there are lots of school trips going on all the time, how many need a free inspection trip!, i suspect not many.
How about free inspection trip to our company headquarters so you can go over our books and see that we are a solvent company, dont see that advertised on the CR's website.
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Stephen101, I believe that you can find out all that you would want to about a ski resort and hotel etc on the internet, or by referring to other schools within a local council that had already carried out inspection trips, so what is the point of going on one except for taking advantage of a freebie as a sweetner for taking the kids out later in the year? I posted earlier that I (and two other lads) went on one of these 'inspection trips' with a teacher mate and with a bit of prior 'googling' not much inspection was really carried out or even needed to be carried out when we were there 
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| QuaigSki wrote: |
| When the head office says "don't hold your breath" regarding our payment, it doesn't look like a very good sign. |
Thanks QuaigSki, bed karma eh. There's a certain Welsh instructor who might be hunting Mr Reynard down and extracting the money from him personally!
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"As i said earlier there are lots of school trips going on all the time, how many need a free inspection trip!, i suspect not many. "
As I said just google "inspection visits school skiing trips" before making further wild allegations
You may also wish to google "corporate hospitality" so you can get a better appreciation of the very wide and elastic rules under which the "private sector" operates.
In my job I've had wide experience of what is claimed in both the public and private sectors - and I can think of plenty others who need to be pursued before teachers being given an inspection visit prior to running a skiing trip. Perks are one thing - bribes are something else. If you want to accuse people of breaking rules and committing illegal activities then the onus is on you to demonstrate that a breach of the rules has occurred.
Personally my own views on perks are towards the calvanistic end of the scale - but I would want to apply the same standards to everyone and within a legal framework.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| leedsunited wrote: |
Some of you need to get with the real world and realise that people have effectivelly taken bribes for using this company |
It is curious that one who seems to put himself forward as so knowledgeable in law should be so careless as to indulge in what is close to slander.
| leedsunited wrote: |
| It may hurt you to accept but that excuse "risk assesment" would not stand up in a court of law! A good lawyer is going to have a field day with this if it ends up in court |
What on earth is this about? Who is looking for an excuse for what? The "this" that we might hope would end up in court is nailing Mr Reynard for all the money that has been lost, nailing Mr Reynard such that he cannot start up another company ever, nailing Mr Reynard for malpractice ......... The relevance of a school taking up the opportunity of an inspection visit escapes me.
Inspections visits are not new - I was on one over 20 years ago - and as has been pointed out are commonly offered by tour operators. At that time the deal was that you paid for the trip but got the cost returned if you booked with the company. Why is this done ? Because the TOs know that it is a sound way of getting business to offer schools a means of checking things out. Perhaps Leedsunited, you need to stop and consider what the purpose of an inspection visit actually is. It is to check out resorts and accommodation to ensure that if the school books a ski trip it does so knowledgeably and chooses the place best suited to its needs. On the basis of the inspection trip I did, I rejected one resort as not best for our purposes and rated another as a good possibility. That was useful. These days it can also be tied in with demands for much more formalised risk assessment, but even if isn't it still has a serious purpose - good reconnaissance.
Now this is going to be a hard one for you to accept, leedsunited, but an inspection trip is actually part of the teacher's work. Now, don't get me wrong. It is a highly enjoyable kind of work, so much so that it is hard really to think of it as work or to justify calling it work. So let us just say that the teacher is there for a work-related purpose. You need to define the inspection trip by its purpose - to gain knowledge of and assess all aspects of a resort so that the school can make informed decisions about the destination for its ski trip and ensure that the party leader has advance knowledge of it. Knowing that it is likely to be hugely enjoyable and not at all like work may understandably mislead you into calling it a free holiday. And indeed it might even seem to be a free or at least cheap holiday to the teacher undertaking it ..... until his/her headteacher looks for the detailed written report.
Of course inspection trips are hugely enjoyable; but if we are going to be legalistic about it, they have a serious and legitimate purpose from the school's point of view and are work-related for the individuals undertaking them. That being said, I am not arguing that an inspection trip should be a requirement. I have taken trips to resorts I haven't been to before and been very comfortable that a combination of advance preparation, the TO's local rep, the instructors and the application of considerable experience is safe and adequate.
I should add the caveat that I am not a lawyer so I would not assert that my argument would stand up in a court of law. But it's not a bad argument and highly unlikely ever to be needed in a court. 
Now let's get back to nailing Mr Reynard.
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Quick question for those who know more about these things than me.
If staff are being made redundant, does that mean the company and Chris Reynard are closer to being declared bankrupt and therefore the insurance and Aito bonding will kick in to repay schools?
Its awful that people are losing their jobs (and that many look like they won't be paid for the season) but is this development essentially good for the schools?
Thanks
KT
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Maybe, however if there is a criminal case to answer I don't know if this will effect the bond
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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KT
Probably - but what will probably trigger bankruptcy is either Reynard claiming it himself, although he may well be scared of what the Official Receiver/Trustee would find and try to put things off as long as possible, or by a creditor (greater than £750) lodging a creditors petition after having sought a judgement on the debt. My guess is that lawyers have been pretty busy lodging their claims already.
All reports indicate that it is the bankruptcy that will trigger bond. I suspect the authrities might be waiting to see what the Official Receiver/Trustee might find before they decide whether or not to seek a prosecution for fraudulent trading.
Deatils of the bankruptcy process can be found here
http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/bankruptcy/bankruptcy-process.php
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I find it interesting that it has not yet made national news, interesting in a curious way. Here we have multiple schools having paid their money in good faith losing their product - we are talking a very large sum of money here, enough I would have thought for the Serious Fraud Squad to have been involved. It is a national event with schools from a variety of locations around the country already identified and probably now considerably more to come. What does it actually take for this to be come "newsworthy"?
One of the reasons that Reynard has been able to reinvent himself over and over again is the lack of coverage in the national press. The man is infamous within the Outdoor Pursuits but outside of the field, he has managed to avoid most adverse publicity. The laws of the land have given him all sorts of ways of circumventing his "barring" from running the type of businesses he has specialised in all through his career. A tweek here and front name there and he is back in business - why is there not a register for this kind of serial offender in the same manner as there is for sex offenders? He specialises in the educational field but is not nationally blacklisted, why not. This situation should never have arisen with the number of rulings against him had there been such a register.
He will surface again unless things change drastically with another plausible front to con people again and again because he knows he can.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hi everyone AND CHRIS REYNARD ( yes I have been informed that he is reading this ~ guess that's not surprising really! lol)
I like several other people on this forum am a former employee of Skiing Europe. I did work for them this season and was on a trip that very nearly did not run at all. the trip went ahead all be it without one of the booked instructors who felt that they could not depart without knowing he would be paid due to other personal business commitments.
I have recently been in touch with S.E regarding the wages and expenses that they owe me. Now I was informed that the company was not "folding" more over that Chris has applied for a loan with which he plans to refinance the company. Now more over the possible B.S line that i was fed was that this was applied for before Febuary.....
Now in the case of all schools who have LEGITIMATELY withdrawn from holidays i.e they were asked to pay more or major changes were made by S.E when/if this loan actually materialises I would assume that they will recieve refunds.
However unfortunate it is, in the case of the schools who decided not to depart i.e Tonbridge etc Skiing Europe whilst entirely at fault from a moral stand point were not the ones who broke the contract. Now I'm NOT defending Chris Reynards actions nor Skiing Europes, The trip that I departed with where advised by their lawyers that unless they departed they would have no LEGAL grounds with which to recoup lost funds. As it happened through through the other two instructors and my own hard work ( coughs ) the trip was a great success.
Furthermore I would like to defend all of the instructors who worked for skiing europe. From my experience we are all well qualified personally, I am a Level 2 C.S.I.A and Level 1 C.S.C.F. Most of the instructors are friendly knowledgeable and put the kids experience first! There are of course a few that aren't quite so brilliant but they ARE all qualified.
I have read on here several questions regarding why it is that well qualified experienced instructors are willing to work for skiing europe.... this has two very simple answers. Firstly Skiing Europe pay more than there rivals... rightly or wrongly the difference is enough that i have continued to deal with the issues that accompany skiing europe trips.
Secondly skiing europe give you complete free reign once in resort this allows you to work directly with the group organiser in order to improve the overall experience for the kids... however this does have drawbacks and some instructors don't enjoy the extra "work" that goes with it.
Anyways just my two pence!!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The fact is that it could have made national news. Last Friday the BBC visited Mount Grace School and made a television report regarding their ski trip. It was to be televised last Friday on the London local news programme shown after the main national news at 6pm. For some reason the report was not shown.
The problem we are having in getting this news out there is that the only people interested in searching Chris Reynard and Skiing Europe are those who have reason to be concerned, ie., those who have already paid a substantial amount of money to him for trips which havent happened in February half term and the Easter holidays.
Unfortunately the schools who may have booked trips for later this year and beyond will not be concerned until such time as they find out their trips are not happening.
I believe that if the BBC are genuinely interested in this massive fraud they need to be making it a national news item.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| salomongeek wrote: |
I have recently been in touch with S.E regarding the wages and expenses that they owe me. Now I was informed that the company was not "folding" more over that Chris has applied for a loan with which he plans to refinance the company. Now more over the possible B.S line that i was fed was that this was applied for before Febuary.....
Now in the case of all schools who have LEGITIMATELY withdrawn from holidays i.e they were asked to pay more or major changes were made by S.E when/if this loan actually materialises I would assume that they will recieve refunds.
However unfortunate it is, in the case of the schools who decided not to depart i.e Tonbridge etc Skiing Europe whilst entirely at fault from a moral stand point were not the ones who broke the contract. Now I'm NOT defending Chris Reynards actions nor Skiing Europes, The trip that I departed with where advised by their lawyers that unless they departed they would have no LEGAL grounds with which to recoup lost funds. As it happened through through the other two instructors and my own hard work ( coughs ) the trip was a great success.
Furthermore I would like to defend all of the instructors who worked for skiing europe. From my experience we are all well qualified personally, I am a Level 2 C.S.I.A and Level 1 C.S.C.F. Most of the instructors are friendly knowledgeable and put the kids experience first! There are of course a few that aren't quite so brilliant but they ARE all qualified.
I have read on here several questions regarding why it is that well qualified experienced instructors are willing to work for skiing europe.... this has two very simple answers. Firstly Skiing Europe pay more than there rivals... rightly or wrongly the difference is enough that i have continued to deal with the issues that accompany skiing europe trips.
Secondly skiing europe give you complete free reign once in resort this allows you to work directly with the group organiser in order to improve the overall experience for the kids... however this does have drawbacks and some instructors don't enjoy the extra "work" that goes with it.
Anyways just my two pence!!! |
Is Skiing Europe a company or Chris Reynards T/A Skiing Europe?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Look on Companies house website! I don't know the actual answer to this!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Elston, from the rest of the thread I think Skiing Europe is now and inactive company and SE is acting as a sole trader T/A Skiing Europe
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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mmmm, these comments about 'freebies' and a 'free holiday' are clearly from people who have never taken such an undertaking on. 'Holiday' is not what i would describe this undertaking, and frankly, the isnt this your job comment' i will leave simply as a 'no'. I volunteer a great deal of my time for no benefit to myself, running a weekly ski club from september to april (unpaid) and a week of my non contact time, where next week of my 'holiday' i will be marking, planning, managing department and not seeing my partner.
That mini rant aside (having phone 2 parents today, dealt with vomit and a nose bleed, and friendship issues - 'great holiday'!) The real issue here is that all these people and schools have been hit hard by this, and the knock on effect will be huge. smaller companies will be at risk as schools will be unwilling to run with them (already had an email from a company with a similar name saying they have nothing to do with Skiing Europe) and the bigger companies will get a larger share, reducing choice ad competition. Schools may well also cancel these trips to avoid the risk, meaning even fewer pupils get the opportunity to be involved in an amazing sport. They may well take the view that the risk is not worth it. I know that i will have much more to do if run it next year, which i was already considering not doing just because of the sheer amount of time and effort that it takes.
Sad times all round for the whole school ski trips
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Actually the company 'Skiing Europe Ltd' is not dormant. The last accounts were filed under the provisions avaliable for small companies on 16/11/2010 for the year ended 31/01/2010.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Togger, I'm not a teacher, and I've had 'friendship issues' to deal with today from two grown women (or rather from one of them).
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Elston
They also say dormant on the front cover.
Salomongeek
"However unfortunate it is, in the case of the schools who decided not to depart i.e Tonbridge etc Skiing Europe whilst entirely at fault from a moral stand point were not the ones who broke the contract."
Just not true I'm afraid - I have it on good authority that the school were approached by the Coach company demanding extra payment - that is what triggered the school to contact the named hotel who said they had no booking and had cancelled the previous booking. The school were not offered a full refund at this stage as Reynard is required to by Law (the package holiday regulations) - it is not possible to overide stautory provisions by contract I'm afraid - despite what Reynard may thing and tell you. Reynard had made the contract illegal before the school cancelled. You are just not alloweed unde rthe law to demand extra money and change hotels/resorts/countries on holidays without the agreement of the end consumer and offering full refund - and if you operate on such a basis you are trading fraudulently.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ok sorry i didnt know the coach company had contacted the school this is not how it was reported to me..... and ur having a laugh if you think Reynard talks to the ski instructors... GOD no...
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plus your missing out my source of this info from your quote,
"The trip that I departed with where advised by their lawyers that unless they departed they would have no LEGAL grounds with which to recoup lost funds. As it happened through through the other two instructors and my own hard work ( coughs ) the trip was a great success"
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FAQ
