 Poster: A snowHead
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Apart from reducing capacity by 50%, the best way to reduce transmission risk on gondola and cable cars might be to remove the glass from all the openable windows (and perhaps some upper non-openable ones as well). Effectively making them more like "outdoor" spaces.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Layne wrote: |
If am wearing gloves and have my faced covered and they limit the capacity in enclosed lifts to allow 1m spacing I would imagine the risk must be pretty low on the lift system?
I would have thought restaurants, bars, close contact in accommodation would be more of an issue. But even that is no different in terms of what is happening now i.e., reduced capacity, distancing, track and trace. |
The risk isn't really in what the rules are but how strictly they are enforced and how they meter for peak demand. A fully COVID safe gondy is all very well but not it there is a 2 hour queue to upload it, same as a restaurant where you have to wait til 5pm to eat lunch.
So COVID safe seems that it needs to go hand in hand with some resort capacity management processes. It might all be fine because so many fewer holidaymakers turn up this season but what happens in a peak week if even 90% of bed capacity shows up?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am afraid you have far more faith in masks than is warranted - perhaps why they delayed the introduction so long as it is the false sense of security that they purvey. They may reduce risk of you transmitting Covid but certainly do not reduce it to anywhere near zero and very little evidence they stop you catching it. Remember also that there is a fair amount of emerging evidence that transmission is much higher in cooler temperatures and dry air.
For me, I have written off winter season 2020/21 but I suspect it will be written off for us unless there is a vaccine that works available in sufficient quantity by end of year.
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| countryman wrote: |
| I am afraid you have far more faith in masks than is warranted - perhaps why they delayed the introduction so long as it is the false sense of security that they purvey. They may reduce risk of you transmitting Covid but certainly do not reduce it to anywhere near zero and very little evidence they stop you catching it. |
#1 I wasn't suggesting masks reduce transmission to zero and #2 your statement seems a little contradictory - if they reduce the transmission then by definition they stop you catching it. Or did I misunderstand something?
| countryman wrote: |
| Remember also that there is a fair amount of emerging evidence that transmission is much higher in cooler temperatures and dry air. |
Indeed but what I was suggesting is that the environment itself will have lower transmission in the first place. That is to say by being togged up and not having face to face contact or bare skin contact the transmission is very low so the effect of cold dry air is less of an issue. Happy to be corrected.
| countryman wrote: |
| For me, I have written off winter season 2020/21 but I suspect it will be written off for us unless there is a vaccine that works available in sufficient quantity by end of year. |
I'm not trying to be overly optimistic here. I understand we are walking a bit of a tightrope.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The accommodation capacity of many resorts is way higher than the piste capacity in normal circumstances. Under epidemic conditions, the nominal piste capacity is lowered even further by the reduced capacity of the lift system and indoor areas. Even if you're not providing catering, you'd need to provide some indoor space for people to retreat to in sudden bad weather or if they're suffering from cold or fatigue. If high winds suddenly stop all the lifts, you can't be leaving people at the summit freezing to death outside a warm but closed café.
The last comprehensive survey of occupancy in the Verbier-La Tzoumaz area returned an average winter occupancy of only 12%, or 1 in 8 beds i.e. 7 out of 8 beds in our Domain are usually 'lits froid' and empty. In practical terms, in our area this low-week occupancy works quite well - even as it was, you could pick and choose gondolas to some extent and queues were never very long and often non-existent. I'm assuming the usual bane of such periods won't be happening (e.g. big student groups, luge clubs and ski clubs on a coach excursion, school sports day groups etc.) which will be an improvement (in terms of the visitor experience).
The problem will be peak school holiday weeks, when the occupancy rates must triple or more. I just don't see how effective social distancing can be made to work then.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| Even if you're not providing catering, you'd need to provide some indoor space for people to retreat to in sudden bad weather or if they're suffering from cold or fatigue. If high winds suddenly stop all the lifts, you can't be leaving people at the summit freezing to death outside a warm but closed café. |
Just on this specific point - in stormy weather you would be told to return to your station. That is what has always happened to me.
I don't think having shelter is a necessity at all.
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I can't see how being"togged up"makes any difference. The virus can't penetrate your arms and legs.
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@pam w, if your face is covered it's stops the droplets from your mouth. If you have gloves on you don't pick it up off of surfaces.
I'll be honest I've not been fully following all the discussion about how/why transmission occurs.
I mean people being in a confined space together is an issue but is the issue droplets being airborn and inhaled or me touching my face, then a surface and then you touching the surface and your face or both....?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne, both.
Gloves are bad. We wash our hands more often than our gloves. You'll need to ski without gloves next season 
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| Layne wrote: |
| LaForet wrote: |
| Even if you're not providing catering, you'd need to provide some indoor space for people to retreat to in sudden bad weather or if they're suffering from cold or fatigue. If high winds suddenly stop all the lifts, you can't be leaving people at the summit freezing to death outside a warm but closed café. |
Just on this specific point - in stormy weather you would be told to return to your station. That is what has always happened to me.
I don't think having shelter is a necessity at all. |
Sometimes sudden strong winds shut all lifts and conditions are too severe for people to ski down. Usually at least once a season. What has always happened to you is not indicative of all possible conditions, so I don't think you can state all shelter is unnecessary at all resorts across all countries across the whole season. What I would concede is that perhaps resorts would have contingency for this and be able to open-up closed cafés and facilities in an emergency.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This all seems like an overly pessimistic view of what is likely to happen. Last week in hintertux everything was operating pretty much as normal. Cafes and bars all open and operating as normal. The only change to normality was mask wearing on the gondolas.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| LaForet wrote: |
| Sometimes sudden strong winds shut all lifts and conditions are too severe for people to ski down. Usually at least once a season. What has always happened to you is not indicative of all possible conditions, so I don't think you can state all shelter is unnecessary at all resorts across all countries across the whole season. |
I've skied a couple of weeks a year for 30 years and I ski in all weathers. I've never once been told to take shelter somewhere on the mountain. I've been told a few times to get off the mountain. Most of my skiing has been in France.
Where and under what circumstances has this happened to you?
| LaForet wrote: |
| What I would concede is that perhaps resorts would have contingency for this and be able to open-up closed cafés and facilities in an emergency. |
Ain't happening. Not in France at least.
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| Layne wrote: |
| ...I've never once been told to take shelter somewhere on the mountain. I've been told a few times to get off the mountain. Most of my skiing has been in France. |
Same here.
But I can see that it could happen in certain places. Take somewhere like Orelle or Champagny, with a single gondola giving access to the slopes, at a time of the season when there is insufficient snow to ski down. If the gondola unexpectedly shuts in very poor weather there could be a need to shelter a significant numberof people somewhere on the mountain until they could be ferried down.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Gloves are bad. We wash our hands more often than our gloves. You'll need to ski without gloves next season
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This. It astonishes me to see people dragging gloves out of their pockets, going all round the shops pushing a trolley, then shoving the gloves back in their pockets again. The key precautions are to wash hands properly, a lot, and not to touch your face. All this spraying and dabbing that's going on is not achieving much.
The fuss about "surfaces" is ridiculous and there's a lot of contagion theatre going on. The key precaution is to wash your hands a lot and not touch your face
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| JimboS wrote: |
| This all seems like an overly pessimistic view of what is likely to happen. Last week in hintertux everything was operating pretty much as normal. Cafes and bars all open and operating as normal. The only change to normality was mask wearing on the gondolas. |
This is my experience too. From discussions on here and with other people I know in the UK, the British population has been conditioned to expect a level of “measures” that the locals have not bothered with. If that idea scares you or makes you feel unsafe, then I suggest you give the Alps a wide berth this winter. It's possible there may be more/different restrictions when the winter season starts, but as yet I have seen no evidence of this.
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Poster: A snowHead
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All this chat about precautions in the Alps becomes irrelevant if the FCO imposes a 2 week quarantine or changes travel advice, all plans dashed at that point.
I'm more concerned about that, I'll follow the rules as necessary to look after the family once I'm there.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| ...I've never once been told to take shelter somewhere on the mountain. I've been told a few times to get off the mountain. Most of my skiing has been in France. |
Same here.
But I can see that it could happen in certain places. Take somewhere like Orelle or Champagny, with a single gondola giving access to the slopes, at a time of the season when there is insufficient snow to ski down. If the gondola unexpectedly shuts in very poor weather there could be a need to shelter a significant numberof people somewhere on the mountain until they could be ferried down. |
I've skied in La Plagne more than anywhere else - maybe 20 weeks. I've never known them to shut lifts that suddenly - certainly not connecting ones or ones required for downloading. Certainly the Champagny gondola would be one of the last as it's very sheltered.
I've been out a few times when I have been concerned that lifts would close but they never have. One time I was staying on in Oz-en-Oisans, there were high winds and they shut a chair so I had to ski down and then download to Vaujany and get the massive cable car back up. I wasn't sure they had/would keep it open. It was late afternoon. But they did. And I was then able to ski back to Oz. I remember once when I was staying in Brides-les-Bains and we went over to the Orelle valley. Vis was poor all day but by late afternoon it was a proper pea souper - could may be see 10 metres ahead. But the lift to the top of Mont de la Chambre was still running. If something was shut they would just telly you to ski back down and then get a Hotel/Taxi. By definition there few places that you couldn't ski back to civilisation. That's part of the job of the pisteurs isn't it, to clear the mountain at the end of the day or when they close down?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Layne wrote: |
| I've never once been told to take shelter somewhere on the mountain. I've been told a few times to get off the mountain. Most of my skiing has been in France. |
| Layne wrote: |
| I've skied in La Plagne more than anywhere else - maybe 20 weeks. I've never known them to shut lifts that suddenly - certainly not connecting ones or ones required for downloading. |
I agree with your general point - it's extremely rare. And in any case, there are lots of areas within a ski area where there isn't a restaurant or refuge to shelter in anyway.
However it has happened to me once, when we were staying in Soll (SkiWelt) several years ago, and with extremely bad timing.
long storyMy partner and I had skied across to Westendorf for the day, at the other end of the ski area. The weather was calm and sunny. Around lunchtime my partner started to feel a tad poorly, and decided to sit in a cafe at Choralpe (top of the gondola up from Brixen) for an hour or so while I carried on skiing. When I returned, he still wasn't feeling better so we decided to head back to our resort.
Now, the only way back to Soll was via Brixen, and the only run down was a long (fairly tricky) red. It was my partner's first skiing holiday, and with him feeling unwell, he wisely decided to download on the gondola, and I'd meet him at the bottom. As I skied off down the red, a ferocious gust of wind came out of nowhere - so strong that it knocked me over, as well as a couple of other skiers on the same stretch of piste as me. When I'd reached the bottom, I found out that they'd shut the gondola for the rest of the day, and everyone still at the top was being instructed to take shelter in the top station / restaurant. I didn't have any phone reception, so couldn't get hold of my partner, which was a bit concerning given that he was feeling ill.
Eventually skiers were permitted to ski down the red (I assume that pedestrians were evacuated some other way), and a long wait later, my partner appeared, having commendably done the same, despite being ill, on his own and a relative beginner. Everything was operating normally on the other side of the valley, so we skied back across to Soll as quickly as possible, making the last lift with minutes to spare.
Back in our room that evening my other half became even more ill, and after he actually started babbling nonsense words I got him into a taxi to hospital in Worgl. The doctors pumped him full of fluids and sent him / us home a couple of hours later - by which time he was already feeling a bit better. The next day was our last skiing day, which he gave a miss. By the evening he was 90% recovered, and we went out for a pre-booked fondue. However, I was feeling a bit poorly that evening instead! Fortunately I wasn't affected as badly, and despite it marring my enjoyment of the fondue a bit, I was better again the next day. No idea what we both picked up, but our day over at Westerndorf was certainly an interesting one. And back on the topic of the weather, I don't think anyone was expecting that windy period!
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Got stuck on a gondola going out of reberty in high winds once for nearly an hour, eventually they moved it on very slowly and kicked everyone out at the mid station.
Also got stuck halfway up a far side of chatel in a thunderstorm with a nervous second week skier and had to shelter in the lift station with hundreds of kids who were having lessons, in the end they started taking them down on skidoos and guided us down in large snakes through the very thick cloud.
All adds to the fun
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@denfinella, like the story - I've had a few like that myself - and everyone came out good in the end.
What intrigued me in @LaForet post was "Sometimes sudden strong winds shut all lifts and conditions are too severe for people to ski down. Usually at least once a season.". In your case people were asked to ski down which is what I would expect. Conditions "too severe for people to ski down" are unheard of in a resort setting with marked pistes IME. Anyhow, don't want to label the point too much - I just don't see it as a pre-requisite for ski resorts to provide shelter on the mountain.
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I've not been told to take shelter, but I (with others) was "escorted" to bypass some closed lifts when the weather turned suddenly nasty. It was reassuring being with pisteurs - but wasn't an easy schlep, along a ridge path used by walkers (not a piste, to avoid going down into the bowl and having to climb up the other side) in heavy snow, wind and poor vis. It was some years ago, when I was fitter than I am now, but it was a slog - would have been much easier in cross country gear! I guess if anyone had conked out they'd have sent transport of some sort for them.
A mishap of the kind being envisaged here is far less likely than picking up Covid in an apres ski bar.
If we always thought of all the worst things that could happen we'd never go anywhere! At the end of next week I shall be in a small (well, 10.5 metre) yacht sailing round Selsey Bill and across Lyme Bay with an 87 year old skipper - what could possibly go wrong?
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@layne 'Conditions "too severe for people to ski down" are unheard of in a resort setting with marked pistes IME.'
In your experience. Which I don't question. But as you have seen above, not everyone's. If you don't believe me, and them, then there's nothing more I can say to convince you I'm not lying ....
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| snowdave wrote: |
| @Themasterpiece, I predict a massive surge in touring! |
You don't even have to predict. It already happened, a reality.
On the day the US mountains closed back in March, all the skins and touring kits sold out the very same day!
Most shops selling touring kits couldn't keep any products in their shops. They all flew out the door the moment the shipments arrived.
Unlike Europe, the US did not have a full lock down. So just about everyone who were "locked out" of the resorts immediately went touring. It didn't hurt that mid-March being the usual beginning of a "normal" touring season (deep depth, more stable snow pack). Until the local authority closed the trail head due to over crowding, that is.
While SOME of those touring kits will sit unused once the resorts re-open with normal operation (and normal capacity). But I bet many will continue to tour. There're many appeal of touring, which most people never bother to try and experience. Once they did thanks to the resort closure, they will likely continue enjoying such appeals.
Touring will get a REAL boost even years after the pandemic ends. That I predict.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
The risk isn't really in what the rules are but how strictly they are enforced and how they meter for peak demand. A fully COVID safe gondy is all very well but not it there is a 2 hour queue to upload it, same as a restaurant where you have to wait til 5pm to eat lunch.
So COVID safe seems that it needs to go hand in hand with some resort capacity management processes. It might all be fine because so many fewer holidaymakers turn up this season but what happens in a peak week if even 90% of bed capacity shows up? |
So far, the Europeans show they're unwilling to enforce much capacity measures.
So it's quite likely skiing will be "normal" when resorts open. And a high probability of complete shutdown when the virus spread.
One must admit it's much easier to have a "binary" solution (open with no restriction vs closed), than trying to navigate a complex rules of capacity reduction to enable distance. Even if such simplistic binary solution may not be the most optimal option.
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There doesn't seem to be much evidence of high levels of virus spread through skiing and using lifts last season. The main culprits were clearly densely-packed après venues. Sit-down lifts such as gondolas and chairlifts already have mandatory mask use. Lift queues are only a small issue for a few weeks of the season (NY and the four weeks in February). Chair lift queues are less of a problem, you are separated from other people by having skis on your feet and the queue is outdoors, but I can envisage distancing and mask requirements for indoor gondola queues.
Après will be the main casualty. Discussions seem to be following a model of table service only, limited capacity, no loud music, singing, shouting.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@queenie pretty please, queues? What queues? In Austria?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@abc, In order of severity the worse queues I have ever encountered were in Borovets, Whistler and St Anton. At peak times there are queues in every resort.
I have booked for next year to the extend I have reserved my apartment for 4 weeks of the winter. That is earlier than usual. Bookings don't normally start happenng until Spetember or October but apparently equiriries are coming in earlier this year. I'll book a tunnel crossing closer to the time
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| Quote: |
Après will be the main casualty. Discussions seem to be following a model of table service only, limited capacity, no loud music, singing, shouting.
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Result 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Boris wrote: |
| Quote: |
Après will be the main casualty. Discussions seem to be following a model of table service only, limited capacity, no loud music, singing, shouting.
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Result |
I don't understand this. If you don't enjoy an apres drink avoid the bars seems unfair to revel in nil apres just because you don't like it.
Not an apres animal myself but it's part of the atmosphere.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Equally happy with a few beers in a quiet bar as I am in a banging bar so if that's to be the Apres experience then so be it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@James77, indeed and maybe I should have added a  - I'm not bothered by Apres so don't go.
Although I suppose not having people staggering home at 3am shouting will be a benefit!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Boris wrote: |
@James77, indeed and maybe I should have added a - I'm not bothered by Apres so don't go.
Although I suppose not having people staggering home at 3am shouting will be a benefit! |
You didn't need to add anything, someone added 2 & 2 and got 357....lifes like that these days....
Me too, won't miss the 2am onwards p*ss heads in the middle of Arc 2000.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| queenie pretty please wrote: |
There doesn't seem to be much evidence of high levels of virus spread through skiing and using lifts last season. The main culprits were clearly densely-packed après venues. Sit-down lifts such as gondolas and chairlifts already have mandatory mask use. Lift queues are only a small issue for a few weeks of the season (NY and the four weeks in February). Chair lift queues are less of a problem, you are separated from other people by having skis on your feet and the queue is outdoors, but I can envisage distancing and mask requirements for indoor gondola queues.
Après will be the main casualty. Discussions seem to be following a model of table service only, limited capacity, no loud music, singing, shouting. |
Is there a lack of evidence or is that just your opinion? Don't get me wrong, I won't cry at lack of apres but I don't think it's clear where it has/hasn't spread. There are plenty of environments where it could have spread but here apres is being singled out. Densely packed accommodation is surely a significant factor, as is the dining setup, with lots of tightly packed restaurants or even buffet style tray services. Then you've got the queues, packed lifts and buses the cold environment, shared equipment for people renting, long transfers and loads of other risk factors I won't have thought of. It's far more than just apres.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Ryunis, precisely - apres is favourite for a reason, drunk people shouting in each others faces over loud music but there is no reason packed gondolas or cable cars can't be effective disease vectors. Most cable cars are rammed worse than tube trains and gondolas are sweat and steam boxes even in midwinter.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Buffet tongs, yuck, think I'll skip salad.
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Thinking about Norway for Christmas. Expensive but:
No gondolas, only surface lifts and open chairs.
Hire a car so little sharing apart from the plane.
Hotel/car (bar airfares) are cancellable at short notice with no penalty. So got a few provisional bookings done already
The only thing is I think the included hotel breakfast is a buffet 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@NickyJ, yes we have used them before and done s/c, makes it more reasonable, but apparently its now deemed not a “holiday” if you need to shop and cook for yourself.
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@ster, ah! 
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FAQ
