Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Has there been any updates on the actual case, rather than speculation?
After all it is free
After all it is free
feef, yep, that's what we need, not repeated assertions of what French law is or isn't, nor more nonsense about how a comprehensive training programme (let's just say BASI Level 1, BASI Level2, Common Theory, Level 3 Teach, Level 3 Tech, Level 3 Mountain Safety, Coaching Course, 2nd Discipline, 2nd Language, Level 4 Tech, Level 4 teach, Euro Speed Test, Euro Mountain Safety, 4000 word written project, 6 days of touring, and 470 hours of teaching experience) is needed to ski people round some easy pistes whilst smiling and being prohibited from administering first aid. I did that in Tignes today*, for a hot chocolate. Arrest me.
* err, yesterday
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
slikedges, Superb!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
feef, The ESF declined to comment to The Sunday Times Travel Section editorial on the Le Ski case.
This little issue is going to run and run for sometime. Sadly I believe this may just damage not only the ESF but skiing in France especially for British skiers. Not because of any real currency with ski company piste companions, but because of the bloody minded French. It would be a better thing for the ESF to encourage skiers to take lessons rather than demand they do.
I would not be surprised, but would love to see, if the other TO's supporting the Le Ski cause were to use ski schools other than ESF ski schools in as many resorts as they possibly can.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
skimastaaah, if it's anything like in Austria, unlikely. Resorts have a sort of racket going on.. So you can bet that the people who rent out their properties to the TO would soon hike up the price or just stop in order to get them back "in line". The same can be said for ski hire shops!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
slikedges wrote:
feef, yep, that's what we need, not repeated assertions of what French law is or isn't, nor more nonsense about how a comprehensive training programme (let's just say BASI Level 1, BASI Level2, Common Theory, Level 3 Teach, Level 3 Tech, Level 3 Mountain Safety, Coaching Course, 2nd Discipline, 2nd Language, Level 4 Tech, Level 4 teach, Euro Speed Test, Euro Mountain Safety, 4000 word written project, 6 days of touring, and 470 hours of teaching experience) is needed to ski people round some easy pistes whilst smiling and being prohibited from administering first aid. I did that in Tignes today*, for a hot chocolate. Arrest me.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Timmaah wrote:
skimastaaah,So you can bet that the people who rent out their properties to the TO would soon hike up the price or just stop in order to get them back "in line". The same can be said for ski hire shops!
I really don't think so!
Turnong down cash? Never.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
under a new name wrote:
Timmaah wrote:
skimastaaah,So you can bet that the people who rent out their properties to the TO would soon hike up the price or just stop in order to get them back "in line". The same can be said for ski hire shops!
I really don't think so!
Turnong down cash? Never.
You'd clearly be surprised by the business ethic out here, it's not uncommon for a French chalet owner to leave a chalet boarded up all winter in preference to re-negotiating the rental price. Some of these families have so much land and property they very comfortably allow 'principle' to over-rule revenue. Also not uncommon to hear of TO managers complaining about hire shops but be unable to do anything as the owner of the shop also owns two of their chalets which can't be put at risk.
Anyway, on topic; perhaps I've missed it over the last dozen pages, but just musing aloud no-one seems to have picked up on the issue that TO 'reps' translate as 'guides' in French as they have no distinct word for Rep. I believe a lot of the problem falls down to small cultural misunderstandings like this. The French don't do chalet holidays so they don't have experience of hosts and reps (Club Med resort staff don't compare here). They don't understand that the ski host is an extension of a chalet host/rep simply because they don't understand what any of these are, and so understandably to make the comparison they jump to the nearest professions they have; in this case chef/maid/instructor/driver, each of which requires considerable training, certificates and degrees and would never be undertaken collectively by one inexperienced youngster.
To elaborate, in France, employment is incredibly rigid compared to the Anglo-Saxon model - it's almost like the Futurama cartoon concept of being implanted with a career chip which can't be removed. For example, type 'salesman' into the French employment site and it asks you to pick from a few hundred different types of salesman before you can get to the announcements (divided by products mostly, ie if you sell wine you can only sell wine and must not consider anything else). The notion of transferable skills and varied roles seems lost on them. Simply put, if you asked a French person to let their foreign maid lead you around the pistes of a ski resort they would loudly question your sanity. Looking at it this way, it's understandable that they take issue with our way of doing things. Throw in a bit of protectionism, vague and antiquated laws and a wealthy and influential body of vested interests and you get a few long court cases.
Anyway, funny thing is that most French people I know mock 'the ESF mountain gods' (as irrational as it is to lump such a diverse collection of people into one group) for those little things such as skipping the queue in the bakery, demanding freebies where-ever they go or ignoring staff they don't know on first name terms. Perhaps they'd be like this anyway but drawing attention to your rudeness by wearing two metres of red clothing doesn't help.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
albinomountainbadger, I think you might want to read the rest of the thread
I'm pretty up with the mentality out here and I can assure you that no chalet or hotel owner that I know or have negotiated with would turn down hard cash just to support the profiteering and protectionism of the U.S.F.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Sorry if I repeated what others have said, I tried to read most of the thread but admit I got lost many a time and was trying to be relevant to the topic in my reply. Can definitely assure you that for nearly all the French I know money is not as much a motivating factor as it is to us. On a local basis the hotel owner is probably brother or best mates with the head of the ski school, so yes he would turn down your cash. Some more will be along soon - Russian possibly - so it's no stress.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Yes let's all turn Russian and then any of those crazy French rules will be utterly irrelevant!!!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
albinomountainbadger, Let the Russians do their thing,and let the French reap what they sow.
Look what's happened to Courchevel 1850, ........ and it's being rebranded so as not to be confusing to our Russian ski-cousins! Another 10 years down the line and the 3V's will have its own Russian ski schools to match the ESF. Only their ski schools will be staffed by drop-dead-gorgeous-ski-bunnies!!
albinomountainbadger, No, typically the hotel owner is an ex lover of the EsF's sister in law's missing twin and the is bad blood between them since 1645 and that bizarre accident with the space hopper - so, no, I still think there's no chance that they'll band together in any show of solidarity!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
slikedges wrote:
I'm waiting for when the French realise they'll need to learn Mandarin
I'm waiting for the Chinese to realise what their mountains could be earning
After all it is free
After all it is free
under a new name wrote:
albinomountainbadger, No, typically the hotel owner is an ex lover of the EsF's sister in law's missing twin and the is bad blood between them since 1645 and that bizarre accident with the space hopper - so, no, I still think there's no chance that they'll band together in any show of solidarity!
Quite but please don't lose sight of the fact that the ski resort infrastructure has to make a full years profit in only (realistically ) 4 months.
Similarly, can you imagine what a bottle of beer would cost in the UK if it was transported up a hill with no public roads and could only be sold between 9 and 4.
Oh Wait! A bottle of cheap lager and only 220ml at the London Earls Court ski show was £5.00
There you go! Be grateful that Earls Court isn't 1850m up a mountain with no road access
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
Similarly, can you imagine what a bottle of beer would cost in the UK if it was transported up a hill with no public roads and could only be sold between 9 and 4.
Yes - about £3.50 (for a 500mL bottle of wild cat) and you can be guided around the ski resort by a CairnGorm Ambasador like H1LLY (in yellow jackets).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dave Horsley, can he sell beers at Earls Court ski sow next year? Please
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Ford, I am not entirely sure what your point is? The hotelier has a certain economic need, often a limited earnings window, the ski instructor has a very different requirement, as he's usually shagging sheep on "sheep shaggers are us" on Sky and ski instruction is just one way to keep those ewe-catching glutes in shape.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Daleskier, To "turn Russian" you will need to get the cash and also spend it like Russians and stop complaining how expensive the bowl of onion soup is on the mountain:)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
under a new name wrote:
Timmaah wrote:
skimastaaah,So you can bet that the people who rent out their properties to the TO would soon hike up the price or just stop in order to get them back "in line". The same can be said for ski hire shops!
I really don't think so!
Turnong down cash? Never.
This is first-hand experience of my time in Austria, if you choose not to believe me then that's your prerogative.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think Austria is very different. AFAIK there are no ski rental cartels in France. Maybe this difference is also reflected in the number of UK-owned chalets and bars (and indeed ski schools) there are in France, compared to Austria.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
pam w, you make me laugh sometimes. No rental cartels in France? I need a new emoticon to simultaneously express gales of laughter, and incredulous disbelief in such naivete.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Arctic Roll, well the cartels don't work anything like as well, then, from the POV of the renters. And prices are much the same throughout the country, so whilst there's a kind of consensus on prices, I'm not sure that formally that would constitute a cartel.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Wasn't there lots of vandalism/arson attacks against cheapo rental shops like Ski Republic, when they first started out?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mr Piehole, in some locations, yes, I seem to recall that.
I think that was a manifestation of the same thing that is driving ESF to try to outlaw ski guiding. Protectionism, certainly - but nobody could accuse ESF of running a cartel. To judge by their website Ski Republic is flourishing - lots of shops in the French alps, even in some very small resorts. I wonder how they'll do in Austria? Well, one hopes.
Similarly, can you imagine what a bottle of beer would cost in the UK if it was transported up a hill with no public roads and could only be sold between 9 and 4.
Yes - about £3.50 (for a 500mL bottle of wild cat) and you can be guided around the ski resort by a CairnGorm Ambasador like H1LLY (in yellow jackets).
LOL, yes I was thinking the same Dave, I think the OP means UK in the common 'South-Eastern English' usage of the word, e.g. UK=England (south of Watford) (Apologies to OP if you live north of Watford ... in which case you should know better )
boredsurfin wrote:
Dave Horsley, can he sell beers at Earls Court ski sow next year? Please
He's a she boredsurfin, not sure she's qualified to 'do' Londres I'm afraid
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w wrote:
I wonder how they'll do in Austria? Well, one hopes.
That's an interesting one and I see St Anton is one of the few places in Austria mentioned previously in this thread. In reference to ski schools I was once told by a (qualified) mountain guide in St Anton that the Austrian system differs from the French in as far as you wouldn't be taken to court or threatened for opening a ski school or anything else if you were an outsider. You'd never get started in the first place, he went on to explain this in reference to ski schools by pointing out that by law (or so he said) you have to have a meeting place on the slopes to run a ski school in St Anton. Thing is the lift company would never allow you to have said meeting place because they have 'relationships' with the local schools. Make what you will of the word 'relationships' but I'd suggest it's a pretty good explanation of why there are few if any Brit or other ski schools based in many parts of Austria, I'd guess similar conditions might end up applying if you wanted to open a ski hire shop and weren't 'local' or are they opening? If so I'll be interested to see how long they last (unless they start marrying their staff into the local population )!
After all it is free
After all it is free
pam w wrote:
To judge by their website Ski Republic is flourishing
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
pam w wrote:
AFAIK there are no ski rental cartels in France.
Maybe not but what you do have (granted not in the mega resorts, they have their own controls ) in the smaller resorts is the resort Mayor, his brother owns the lift company, his other brother is in charge of the ski school, his son has a hire shop or two, their 3rd cousin by their brothers dad owns the mountain restaurants.
Have I missed anyone?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dwarf Vader, his bit on the side, who owns the wine bar
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
