 Poster: A snowHead
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Saint, great to see that you still can't give an example of a British tour operator host causing an injury to one of their clients.
Sounds like you haven't actually been to the states either. At least, it's not how you describe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Here is a loophole I found from a law passed by the French Education Ministry
http://www.education.gouv.fr/bo/2003/30/MENJ0301377A.htm
It applies to kids holiday centers. What is says is that anyone can lead school groups of up to 12 childrens on piste as long as they also are in charge of the children for other activities, are a member of the holiday center's staff, the center is not aimed just as sports activities but is a general vacation center and it is during the children's school holidays.
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Annexe XI - SKI
I - Conditions d’organisation et de pratique
Dans le cadre des accueils collectifs de mineurs déclarés en tant que centre de vacances et centre de loisirs (tels que définis à l'article 1er du décret n° 2002-883), la pratique du ski et des autres activités de glisse peut être organisée.
Elle doit avoir lieu uniquement sur des pistes balisées quand elle n'est pas encadrée par des personnes titulaires d'un des diplômes professionnels requis pour enseigner le ski.
Les périodes pendant lesquelles peuvent être organisées ces activités sont limitées aux :
- vacances scolaires des mineurs accueillis (vacances des classes visées à l'article L 521-1 du code de l'éducation),
- temps de loisirs extra-scolaires des mineurs accueillis (jours de congés hebdomadaires tels qu'ils sont établis par les autorités académiques au plan départemental ou local).
Ces dispositions ne s'appliquent pas aux accueils ponctuels (type jardin des neiges), l'apport éducatif propre aux centres de vacances et aux centres de loisirs n'y étant pas assuré.
II - Encadrement
L'encadrement peut être assuré par toute personne qui est déclarée comme faisant partie de l'équipe pédagogique de l'accueil. Dans ce cas, l'effectif est limité à 12 mineurs par encadrant.
Lorsqu'il est fait appel à un intervenant ne participant qu'à l'accompagnement de certaines activités, celui-ci doit être titulaire d'un des diplômes professionnels requis pour enseigner le ski.
Lorsque l'accueil présente les caractéristiques d'un établissement d'activités physiques et sportives, l'encadrement doit être assuré par des personnes titulaires d'un des diplômes professionnels requis pour enseigner le ski.
III - Suivi des modalités de la pratique du ski en centre de vacances et de loisirs
Une commission chargée de suivre les modalités d’application de la présente annexe est constituée. Elle est composée de six membres :
- la directrice de la jeunesse, de l’éducation populaire et de la vie associative ou son représentant ;
- le délégué à l’emploi et aux formations ou son représentant ;
- deux représentants de la commission technique et pédagogique des centres de vacances et de loisirs ;
- deux représentants du Syndicat national des moniteurs du ski français.
Cette commission se réunit au moins une fois par an, et en tant que de besoin. Elle est présidée, selon l'ordre du jour, soit par la directrice de la jeunesse, de l'éducation populaire et de la vie associative, soit par le délégué à l'emploi et aux formations. |
but just to warn you, there was a court case in 2006 where a child was injured in one of these groups - he fell and broke his arm or some such. A police investigation showed that the "leader" had told his charges to stop in front of a slope not behind it as that was safer as they would be visible. This was deemed to be instruction. He'd also shown one or two kids how to use a drag lift. More instruction. The unfortunate "leader" had to sell his apartment to pay the fine, costs and legal fees for the case and is also banned from working with children or qualifying as a ski instructor.
| pam w wrote: |
somebody mentioned a French qualification, for people like teachers with groups of kids. I see a lot of French school groups out with teachers who are by no means whizzy skiers, but solid and competent - it happens every week. |
FFS I think.
http://www.ffs.fr/site/formation/index.php?rub=ensben
My son's school has stopped skiing due to the risks. The other local schools who continue all use qualified ski instructors although teachers may also help out.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 22-11-12 18:51; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
The problem is that nowhere seems to have any qualifications that are not instructor qualifications.
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somebody mentioned a French qualification, for people like teachers with groups of kids. I see a lot of French school groups out with teachers who are by no means whizzy skiers, but solid and competent - it happens every week. I imagine those teachers have a stificate of some sort. My son in law did school ski trips and has some kind of Mountain Leader qualification. don't think any sailing club in this country would allow anybody unqualified and uninsured to lead a group of kids even on very safe, shallow, non-tidal waters though unqualified parents might help.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Saint wrote: |
This is not about instructors and their relative abilities, it's about nearly untrained young people being paid to be in charge of others in the mountains. Potentially it's a version of the Lyme Bay accident all over again. How much better if it doesn't. Even if some people and some tour companies are pissed off. |
But that's the point 'SAINT'... Are TO hosts 'in charge' or responsible for the people that wish to ski with them on the mountain. Do they have responsibility for the clients. The clients can come and go as they like, do what they like, and go where they like. It's a 'Grey' area imho.
If you pay for an Instructor or Guide you pay into a contract between you and Ski Instructor/Guide.
Is this the same for a TO and the client when it comes to contract and responsibility?
Personally some form of training is good... but what the French Law requires is non sense. If the French were so interested in Safety, they wouldn't allow people to ski on their own with no Insurance or experience.
I acknowledge it's French Law...
But imho, this ESF chase is nothing to do with Safety.
Out of interest...
I notice one prominant British TO who goes mainly to Switzerland and Austria, offers holidays with ski hosting/Guiding and also offers 18 week Ski Instructor courses in Flimms.
Now that's a contridiction.... 
I copied and pasted from their website...
Ski Managers and Complimentary Ski Guiding
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As a client, you can enjoy our complimentary ski guiding service in many of our resorts, hosted by our ski managers. Although our ski managers are not instructors, they are great skiers who know the terrain and how to get the most out of your skiing experience. They will coordinate ski guiding in small groups, personally meet you at your boot room and oversee your transport to the slopes. They'll show you around the ski area, advising on the best runs, avoiding annoying bottlenecks, and of course, securing the best tables for lunch.
It's a great way to meet up with like-minded skiers and we ensure the whole experience is informal and great fun. Many of our clients tell us that our ski guiding service is one of the highlights of their holiday. You’ll never have to struggle with a piste map, or waste time getting acquainted with a new resort when our ski managers are on hand. They’ll also visit you each evening to discuss any plans you have for the following day and assist with any requirements you have so you can enjoy your down-time.
Our ski guiding service is available in selected resorts for competent blue run skiers and above and we guarantee at least 3 days guiding for a week's stay.
THE JOB REQUIREMENT
Ski Manager
The Role
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An important part of the ******** service is to provide our adult guests with personalised ski guiding, whilst their children join in our club activities.
The role of Ski Manager is to deliver the ********* product in resort, ski guiding groups of adults, doing airport transfers and carrying out daily client requests.
Responsible for providing a safe and enjoyable ski guiding day for all levels of skiers (on piste only), including accompanying guests to and from the hotel, booking lunch in mountain restaurants and providing good local knowledge of the ski area. The role also includes carrying out daily client visits, organising lift passes, assisting with ski hire and doing airport transfers.
Job Requirements
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•Previous resort experience
•Professional and positive attitude
•Full Clean Driving Licence (not essential for shorter Contracts)
•Excellent ski ability (min 20 weeks of skiing experience)
•Excellent guest relations and customer service skills
•A good communicator who is adaptable, resourceful, patient and diplomatic
•Languages desirable
•Team player
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| don't think any sailing club in this country would allow anybody unqualified and uninsured to lead a group of kids even on very safe, shallow, non-tidal waters though unqualified parents might help. |
Although in fairness, teaching or guiding/leading/looking after children opens up a whole different can of worms. Not least because they can't be deemed competent to exercise their own judgement.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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spud, For that companies prices I would want a fully qualified instructor to "fluff my pillows at night" 
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eng_ch, agreed. But what I should have said is that no sailing club would be likely to allow an unqualified/uninsured person to lead ANY group of people, of any age, on the water. We have an informal "Women on Water" group at our club, but there is always a qualified safety boat helm on the water if it's billed as a "Club" session. There was an awful incident some years ago when the usual business of kids capsizing their Toppers resulted in a freak accident in which a girl lost the sight in an eye. The leader of the session was a Senior Instructor who was actually being examined that day by an RYA boffin, with whom he had cleared his plan for the session.
It was traumatic for all concerned as the mother of the girl took the line that "it has to be someone's fault" and sued.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Personally I would have absolutely no issue with a qualification for ski hosts to ensure competence. |
Even under UK law as I understand it a ski guide automatically assumes a Duty of Care as soon as he makes decisions for the group, eg in planning a route which may include a run beyond the capability of one of the skiiers; no problem if the guide is aware of this and can point out an easier alternative and a place to re-group. I would expect that if a TO can prove that suitable training and assessment had taken place (like SCGB leaders) then this would be a reasonable argument to a court (even a French one). However I suspect that most TOs don't even go that far.
For the wider debate on his thread from ESF vs UK instructors, ESF snakes and ESF claiming on piste guided groups are actually being tought, I blame Napoleon. He started the French education principal of learning everything by rote, with less emphasis on understanding than education in other countries. IME An ESF lesson will be to copy the instructor exactly until it eventually clicks into place and make sense. Hence anyone following a leader will be assumed to be trying to copy the leader's style (rather than making their way to the appointed restaurant/bar where the rep may have negotiated a complementary meal or drink).
The reason I (and I suspect many others) prefer a Brit instructor is the "well that was not too bad but try this. how does that feel" approach. Of course this way of learning may not be any more effective than the French learn by rote, even if it is more satisfying.
Rather than engaging in Flash Mob maybe the ESF would be better trying to understand us goats a little better?
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| Saint wrote: |
Of course we could do what they do in the States arrest you if you go off-piste, arrest you if you ski parallel in a slow skiing zone call anything inside the"ski area" on piste and blame it on the skier if they drown in a tree hole or fall of an unmarked cliff that you just traverse to!
Off for a beer (or 2)
Have fun. |
Yeah right.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| spud wrote: |
[
Is this the same for a TO and the client when it comes to contract and responsibility?
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I think it must be if they are advertising the service as part of the package deal.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| But what I should have said is that no sailing club would be likely to allow an unqualified/uninsured person to lead ANY group of people, of any age, on the water. |
Quite possibly - but the barriers to entry/qualification in sailing are lower and more graduated and realistically achievable by almost any age. And the qualifications are more usable. You don't need to be a YMI to be a flotilla skipper (which is probably the closest equivalent to ski host). Sailing, unlike skiing, has certificates of competence to practice without instructing.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| ... Sailing, unlike skiing, has certificates of competence to practice without instructing. |
That seems to be the important point. What do people think about the merits of an internationally recognised qualification to lead people around the pistes? The skill set required for that is surely vastly less than that required to teach skiing...
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You know it makes sense.
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I still say the law is the law and it won't change Good post Davidof! There is always catch 22 for al Yosarians am in bar drinking beer Esf have just left after buying me a beer they aren't all bad !
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| davidof wrote: |
but just to warn you, there was a court case in 2006 where a child was injured in one of these groups - he fell and broke his arm or some such. A police investigation showed that the "leader" had told his charges to stop in front of a slope not behind it as that was safer as they would be visible. This was deemed to be instruction. He'd also shown one or two kids how to use a drag lift. More instruction. The unfortunate "leader" had to sell his apartment to pay the fine, costs and legal fees for the case and is also banned from working with children or qualifying as a ski instructor.
....
My son's school has stopped skiing due to the risks. |
Not hard to see the linkage - poor application of law leads to curtailment of beneficial opportunity.
There's an interesting case in Colorado at the moment involving a kid who was killed after up hiking from open entrance to access terrain accessible from a gate which has been deliberately closed due to avalanche risk. Dumb dumb dumb and IMV no different from ducking the rope. Consequences could be all resorts at least in Colorado decide no gates open if there's any material avy risk.
http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120921/NEWS/120929972
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Poster: A snowHead
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That's level 2 or 3 according to this years French statistics last season when I taught in Vail the gates were shut because of fear of litigation
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That is : statistics for last season...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think sailing's first level "certificates of competence" would be accepted by any decent sailing club for someone leading a club session on water. The basic RYA dinghy sailing and cruising qualifications are very basic indeed - the nautical equivalent of a novice who has done a week in ski school.
What qualification is demanded for people doing ski hosting in St Anton?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w, and you would not find a ski host who had only done one weeks worth of skiing, they could not even pass their own test.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, the low levels in sailing are not "certificates of competence", they are course completion certificates. The certificates of competence (maybe only exist in yachting, not dinghies?) are MCA endorsed and examined. My point remains, it is possible to work as a flotilla skipper with an examined coastal skipper ticket (commercially-endorsed), although YM Offshore is more common. Both qualifications are recognised and valued internationally. Neither of them is a YMI (which would be equivalent to a L4 ski instructor). There is no equivalence in skiing to my knowledge.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 22-11-12 20:37; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Go for it Pam good knowledge girl!
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There is no equivalence in skiing to my knowledge.
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what qualifications do those French school teachers have? And the ski hosts in St Anton? Is there anything equivalent to our Mountain Leadership certificate?
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the low levels in sailing are not "certificates of competence", they are course completion certificates.
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well, up to a point - but one woman on a course I did recently was not given a certificate because she plainly couldn't do what was required despite having attended. We had (simple) tasks to do, such as sail onto a mooring buoy, recover a capsize unaided - and my understanding was that any failure to do those things would have resulted in a "fail". Years ago, when I did a Competent Crew course over three weekends, one guy just couldn't get the hang of the bowline. The instructor told him he would fail if he couldn't get it by the end of the course. We got back into the berth at the end of the final day and the instructor handed over a warp and said, very casually, "Just stick a bowline on that cleat, please". We all held our breaths. The chap was hunched over the cleat - you could see the tension - muttering about rabbits and trees - and finally he did it! We all cheered loudly.
An examined Coastal Skipper (mine wasn't examined....  ) is a lot more of a qualification than many ski hosts have.
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Not sure if its been mentioned yet. I really cannot be bothered trawling through all this repetitive trash but how will this affect hosting by that other well known ski club? Anyone have a sensible authoritative answer? Or will it be more of the same overly forceful expression on subjects of scant knowledge?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I would want a fully qualified instructor to "fluff my pillows at night
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DV I suspect I might want them to fluff a bit more than the pillows.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| pam w wrote: |
| well, up to a point - but one woman on a course I did recently was not given a certificate because she plainly couldn't do what was required despite having attended. We had (simple) tasks to do, such as sail onto a mooring buoy, recover a capsize unaided - and my understanding was that any failure to do those things would have resulted in a "fail". |
Indeed, but they are still "course completion certificates", not "certificates of competence". It's specific terminology.
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| An examined Coastal Skipper (mine wasn't examined.... ) |
There used to be two Coastal Skippers - one was the RYA course with a course completion certificate, one step up from Day Skipper, which I imagine is what you did. The other was an optional exam after a prep week (which would normally award the RYA ticket anyway) but examined by an external YM examiner and one step down from YM Offshore (less experience required etc). It was obviously confusing so - naturally- they've renamed the examined CS to Yachtmaster Coastal. Clear as mud, right? 
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| is a lot more of a qualification than many ski hosts have. |
Because, to my knowledge, there is no qualification (certainly no widely-known qualification) in skiing that is not an instructor qualification. Sort of difficult to blame people for not having a qualification that (I'm assuming) doesn't exist. In fact, what *do* you do if you want to be able to demonstrate that you can ski competently but don't want to teach?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| Quote: |
| is a lot more of a qualification than many ski hosts have. |
Because, to my knowledge, there is no qualification (certainly no widely-known qualification) in skiing that is not an instructor qualification. Sort of difficult to blame people for not having a qualification that (I'm assuming) doesn't exist. In fact, what *do* you do if you want to be able to demonstrate that you can ski competently but don't want to teach? |
There is:
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
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Spyderman, Interesting, so why is it not more widely known of?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 22-11-12 20:57; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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No matter whether you are a quailifiedk to sail or ski if not an instructor or guide under French law still not allowed does anyone have anyone have any proposals how to change French law?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thanks. I'd never even heard of that before. How widely is that recognised internationally? Or does it only have relevance in the UK?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Spyderman, That sounds very suitable as a qualification for leading people on piste. Quote: "Widely recognised throughout the UK (my italics) as the most appropriate award for skiers and snowboarders taking sole charge of groups..."
The only trouble of course is the 64 thousand dollar question - is it recognised outside the UK?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What you are talking about is an ASCL:
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The Snowsport Course Organiser, (SCO), workshop is a 1 day workshop covering all aspects of the safe organisation and management of a school snowsports course. It is certificated by attendance and is now required of the lead teacher on the course by most Local Authorities before they will grant permission for such courses to take place. The SCO is a pre-requirement for moving on to the ASCL.
The Alpine Ski Course Leader, (ASCL), award is a 6 day course held in an Alpine resort. (At present there is no similar award for snowboarding but it is hoped to have one in the future). The course involves training in all aspects of leadership on the piste and, as the week progresses, develops into an assessment of candidates leadership and skiing skills. Successful candidates who pass the practical elements of the course and a written exam on safe leadership skills and elements of the mountain environment are awarded the ASCL qualification. Local Authorities are moving towards requiring this level of award for those teachers who wish to lead their pupils around the piste when they are not in ski school.
Neither the Snowsport Course Organiser, nor the Alpine Ski Course Leader, award is designed as a Snowsports teaching /instructing qualification and may not be used as such.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So what qualification do the leaders of school and youth groups in France have? There are plenty of them, and given French regulation, they must have some piece of paper.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Came across this interesting piece. http://www.avoriaz-vacances.fr/2012/03/ecoles-de-ski-esf-ou-e-s-i/
Too long to translate but an interesting write-up of the history of the ESF, ESI and the dispute between them, from the french perspective. All attributed quotes, links to mainstream media articles, references to court cases etc. so not hearsay and rumour. (scroll down a bit for the good stuff)
Details years of ESF sharp practice (to say the least) from ministerial level down to in-resort violence and corruption. The most interesting thing imho the fact that these sources see ESF protectionism as a fundamentally french-on-french problem - so it can't be defended as a reaction to a threatening invasion of under-qualified or unsafe instructors of the goat-like persuasion.
Obviously there are two sides to a story (I doubt all the ESI instructors are blameless and we all agree there are some good guys at ESF); but anyone claiming criticism of the ESF and DDCS to be jingoistic ranting is in denial of the facts.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| shep wrote: |
| The most interesting thing imho the fact that these sources see ESF protectionism as a fundamentally french-on-french problem |
so all this talk of "I thought the EU borders were open" "French people can work in the UK" "protectionist racket to keep foreign instructors out" etc. is as much rubbish as the idea that the objections to British TOs offering unqualified ski hosting, using employees who don't contribute in any way to the French system, are raised purely on the basis of safety concerns - though it doesn't matter why the objections are raised, really, it just matters if they're valid or not (i.e. is the law being broken).
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shep, Excellent and informative post! It seems from that article that many in the ESF and their friends in local government will try no end of tricks to keep out other (French!) qualified ski instructors from setting up competitive ski schools.
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miranda, Considering London is France's sixth largest city in population terms, any attempt at restricting British from working in France is taking liberties.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, but they're not just attempting to restrict British people from working in France, that's the point, and neither could they even if they wanted to. I suspect the UK benefit far more than the French, though, from workers crossing the channel - the French working in London will be contributing more to the British tax system than the seasonal British workers in ski resorts.
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miranda, and the Brits working in Paris will likewise be contributing to the French exchequor.
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FAQ
