 Poster: A snowHead
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peura,
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However, your overall thrust was something that I either posted earlier or meant to. Which is that I think a lot of families would find it easier to go for a half day hike/cycle/whatever at the weekend than go to the gym 5 days a week for half an hour. I don't know if the health benefits are similar or not though but should one take the view than anything is better than nothing?
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It's interesting you should post this question. I've been thinking about it a bit since doing this totally mega (for me) cycle a couple of weeks ago. It was miles miles longer than anything I normally do, and involved 1500m ascent (normal ascent would be more like 300m). So I thought that after this I would be done in for at least a couple of weeks. But strangely I was recovered after a couple of days, and by thurs went out on my bike again. And lo and behold I felt twice as fit and strong (not saying much tho!) as I ever had before, and have since felt fitter & faster each time I've been out, instead of not really noticing any benefit from one trip to the next. But how can a one-off bit of exercise like that seem to make a long-term difference to one's fitness? Or is it just psychological I wonder? Perhaps once a week is better than every other day?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| I suspect that many people are at risk of spending 10% of their discretionary free-time (ie excluding work/sleep/eating) doing exercise which adds less than 5% to their life expectancy. Is this an effective use of time? |
I don't think that it's purely about life expectancy though, I think that quality of life is a huge factor as well.
Agree that for too many people it becomes a chore, going to the gym and sitting on the same machine plodding away at the same routine every time that they go.
Also agree that the message about exercise has been very muddled in the past, which is why I think that it needs to be simple and clear. My experience has been that if I tell my patients that a little bit of exercise will do them good, then that's all that they tend to do. I've lost count of the number of people who've come to see me for weight loss advice, who when you take an exercise history, count walking the dog/the kids to school as adequate daily exercise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowsparkle2, its all in your head man!! you were obviously fit enough to make that ride.. you just didnt know it.. sometimes you can do rides and think great i knocked a minute off.. then one day go out with some you consider many levels better than you , and guess what you finish only a few minutes behind them but you have done twice as much as you thought you could
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Kramer, yes - MTBing for me is at least 75% for the fun. Meanwhile the gym machines at home remain unused.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother, the downhill and technical uphill is for fun. The uphill fire-road grinds are for masochism and fitness. (BTW got up a very steep hill the hard way for the first time yesterday)
I do have to admit when I first started going to the gym, I used to do pretty much the same thing all the time, which soon gets boring, variety makes it much better.
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CANV CANVINGTON, I did a cross country ride last night which after 2 hours culminated in riding up the Horseshoe pass road and then a seriously steep rough track up a series of hill shoulders. By the end I was in bottom gear, wobbling all over the place, front wheel coming up with every pedal stroke and almost collapsing in exhaustion upon reaching the top. Probably the hardest I've ever had to push for as it was uphill for 40 minutes but I bet that next time it is gonna seem so much easier 
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CANV CANVINGTON,
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and guess what you finish only a few minutes behind them but you have done twice as much as you thought you could
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Well, for a few minutes read half an hour and for twice as much - more like ten times! But yeah I think you're right, now I've done that ride, everythin else seems like so easy in comparison. Bring on the next hill!!!
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stoatsbrother, agree about there being very few interventional studies to show whether changing waist size is beneficial, partly because very few people seem to be able to do it long term?
abc I do agree, obviously if your waist to hip ratio is 0.91 your risk is not going to be hugely greater than if it was 0.89, and the cut off point is fairly arbitary, much the same as it is with blood pressure etc. In much the same way that the lower your blood pressure is (within reason!) the better it is for you, the same can be said for waist to hip ratio.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| peura wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| More over, ("Kramer's") statistics is as "robust" as Einstein's relativity or quantum mechanics! |
 isn't a lot of physics based on probability? . |
Yes, "a lot" of physics are "non-deterministic". On the opposite end, Newtonian law, which is really a special case of Einstein's special relativity, are much more deterministic.
The area quantum mechanics deals with is almost entirely statistical. Relativity, especially special relativity, which one can "almost" think of as Newtonian physics in the fast moving world, deals more with deterministic cause-and-effects. "IF" you travel close to the speed of light long enough, you WILL be younger than your son on earth. There's no "probability" in that!  Most people actually accept the very uncertain (i.e. largely statistical) Heisenburg quantum mechanics a lot more readily than Einstein's relativity, which is far more deterministic.
Hence my point: statistics IS a robust sciemce. As robust as Newton's law! Yet at the same time, still won't guarantee any certain outcome, even though we actually "know" about the cause of it.
That's the part that cause all the confusion. Many people think once we "know more", we'll know FOR SURE. But that's not true of a statistically system. Many biological systems are statistical. So it doesn't matter how well we "understand" it, we can't predict who will die at what age. We can only say what "probability"...
You can better your "odds" by exercise and/or living a healthy lifestyle, or whatever else. The key is "better", not "best". You neighbor, who smokes and sits in front of a TV all day, have a smaller yet nonetheless positive chance he'll outlive you after all. (And he may even win the lottory in the mean time, with a even smaller chance! )
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
Hence my point: statistics IS a robust sciemce. As robust as Newton's law! Yet at the same time, still won't guarantee any certain outcome, even though we actually "know" about the cause of it.
That's the part that cause all the confusion. Many people think once we "know more", we'll know FOR SURE. But that's not true of a statistically system. Many biological systems are statistical. So it doesn't matter how well we "understand" it, we can't predict who will die at what age. We can only say what "probability"...
You can better your "odds" by exercise and/or living a healthy lifestyle, or whatever else. The key is "better", not "best". You neighbor, who smokes and sits in front of a TV all day, have a smaller yet nonetheless positive chance he'll outlive you after all. (And he may even win the lottory in the mean time, with a even smaller chance! ) |
I was unsure what your viewpoint on physics so I wished to find out  . At least when I was at school it would have been quite possible to leave without an understanding of, for example, quantum mechanics. Thus I've seen posts, elsewhere, from people who think that physics is deterministic unlike other sciences. So I thought I would ask and I think that the examples I gave make the same point that your third paragraph (in my quote above) makes.
I'm still not sure which of Newton's laws you are referring. I thought he'd made more than one . Anyway back to snow and fitness talk...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A question was posed earlier in this thread as to how do you determine fitness levels. May not be hugely relevent for us oldies but here is a series of fitness tests used for determining fitness levels in ski racers aged 15 to 20+. We ran these a few weeks ago and track the kids at least annually...
http://snowmediazone.com/the_zone/data/500/Fitness_Test_for_Skiing.pdf
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To me fitness is about recovery time as much as anything. As many people have said some people seem to have a high natural level of fitness, they could go and cycle a long route relatively easily, however they would probably be sore and stiff the next day as they don't normally use the muscles they used for the cycle. A "fit" person may cycle the same route slower than the "unfit" one but they probably would not be sore the next day, in fact they may be able to cycle a long route everyday without any tiredness etc. while the "unfit" person would need rest days in between.
I go to the gym and get sweaty, out of breath and tired so that when I'm doing the things I enjoy, skiing, mountain biking etc. I don't get sweaty, out of breath and tired. I dare say this is what many people mean when they say they want to be "fit". Of course in an ideal world I would live in the mountains and not have to work so I could keep fit by mountainbiking, skiing and walking so I would never have to go to the gym
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You know it makes sense.
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lynseyf,
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I go to the gym and get sweaty, out of breath and tired so that when I'm doing the things I enjoy, skiing, mountain biking etc. I don't get sweaty, out of breath and tired. I dare say this is what many people mean when they say they want to be "fit". Of course in an ideal world I would live in the mountains and not have to work so I could keep fit by mountainbiking, skiing and walking so I would never have to go to the gym
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Exactly!! (Except that I don't mountain bike, just hill walk and ski.) Also, a little muscle definition doesn't come amiss. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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abc, I do get your point, the cut off on any scale is always going to be fairly arbitary, as it is with blood pressure amongst others.
I guess that a better way of phrasing it would be that the higher your waist to hip ratio, then generally the higher the risk of developing diabetes, hypertension, etc.
lynseyf, Hurtle, don't underestimate the contribution of strength to fitness. There was a study in the BMJ 2 weeks ago showing an independent link between increased strength and lower cardiovascular risk, and also lack of strength is what ultimately stops many of my elderly (mainly female) from being able to live independently.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kramer, yeah but many of these relationships are non-linear IIRC....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Kramer,
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lack of strength is what ultimately stops many of my elderly (mainly female) from being able to live independently.
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Not surprised. I do actually lift some weights, in a somewhat puny fashion.
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Hurtle, work on the odd lunge/squat for leg strength to help re falls
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger, yep, I do loads of squats (also on the Power Plate, see above - burns like hell! ) My legs are fairly strong, in fact, it's my arms which remain stubbornly puny - a common female problem I think, cf the thread about press-ups.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, yeah upper body always my weaker area too
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| peura wrote: |
| skimottaret, what is a Tartan surface? Surely they can't mean a kilt ! |
This.
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| Having improved my fitness somewhat I'm now thinking what should I do to improve my "fitness for skiing". Walking/swimming/running/cycling fitness I can do by doing the "real thing", not so much for skiing here, especially cross country. |
Don't know about cross country but cycling works for alpine skiing for me. When I'm on the exercise bike I don't hold onto the handlebars though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, I think I'll try that test tonight, I get bored running and my legs are sore so it'll be a nice variation, thanks.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| peura wrote: |
Having improved my fitness somewhat I'm now thinking what should I do to improve my "fitness for skiing". Walking/swimming/running/cycling fitness I can do by doing the "real thing", not so much for skiing here, especially cross country. |
That all sounds pretty good, if you do enough of it. I would have thought that is adequate training for recreational cross-country. It's what I should be doing, but I am trying to rebuild fitness, from a low base:(
Perhaps you could add some balancing and core strength exercises? Also, if you do some of your walking, running and cycling in rough and hilly terrain, that will help train balance and some of the little muscles that may get missed if you always run and cycle on the flat.
What sort of cross-country ski-ing are you doing? How do you feel you need to improve your training?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 18-08-08 16:12; edited 1 time in total
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Semi-regular cycling didn't stop me from coming back from my first ever attempt at hill walking with aching thigh muscles - I'm wandering around like John Wayne every time I get up from my desk, but maybe I would have been even worse had I not been doing it.
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You know it makes sense.
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Different sports work the muscles in slightly different ways. After a walk on Friday I could feel some soreness in my legs on Sat even after weeks of regular cycling.
No pain no gain
cross training is what 'they' call it
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| You consider yourself to be in better than average shape. You run several times a week for health and fitness and maybe do an occasional fun run on the weekend. Some friends come into town for the holidays and you decide to go skiing. No problem, you're in great shape, right? Wrong. After a day on the slopes you feel like you've been run over by Santa's sleigh and all his reindeer. What's going on? ...... |
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/tipsandtricks/a/Cross_Training.htm
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think cycling and walking use very different muscles. I cycle 8 miles a day as my commute, I did a 12 mile charity walk a while ago and while I felt fine doing it and finished in a reasonable time I was so sore for a week afterwards. I also found that I could still cycle to work quite happily but when I arrived there I got progressively stiffer through out the day and was doing the John Wayne walk. Go out for a cycle tonight and you will feel much better, promise 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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peura, I found skating easier with alpine skis than with skinny flappy x-c skis.
I'm still not much of a skating skier when it comes to x-c skiing, but I can usually skate up to the lift on alpine equipment.
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Oddly, I found "herringboning" up a hill easier with classic x-c skis than with "carving skis". I used to have no trouble "herringboning" in alpine skis about 20 years ago (when I first skied). I can't work out whether it's the skis that have changed or me or both
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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peura,
One of the things I like about XC is that, because it uses most of the muscles in the body, a mix of sports is a good approach in the off-season. That limits the boredom and the over-use injuries. If you are planning to do XC next winter, you would get most out of it if you start your training programme now, so you can build up gradually, not a couple of weeks before you go! But then that is true of most sporting holidays.
Because it is mainly an endurance sport, then, for example, lifting heavy weights will not help much. A mix of running, walking, swimming, cycling, and any other endurance sports you fancy, is best. The various 'aerobic' machines in the gym are good too, if you want to get out of the b****y rain. The important thing is to find sports you enjoy so you are motivated to continue.
Walking, especially uphill, is probably the most muscle specific for the diagonal stride in classic style. Try to stride out like when you ski. If you add ski-poles, then you can train the arms too. You are then doing what I used to call ski-ganging when I raced a bit (a long time ago), and is now the latest fitness craze called Nordic Walking. Try googling that and you will find lots of info and maybe a local group. The advantage of using poles is that, as well as training the arms, stress on the leg joints is reduced (by increasing stress on the arm joints!). It is also possible to increase the training effect on the aerobic system to that approaching running. It burns calories too. The drawback is that doing it round the streets I feel a bit of a prat, although out in the hills, I can pretend they are trekking poles, which are quite trendy here now.
In addition to that, you could add cycling and maybe running if you have the time and inclination. Cycling gets the muscles that walking doesn't. It is good for muscles used in skating and downhills. XC mountain biking is the 'summer' sport which is most like XC ski-ing, in terms of fun and effort, IMHO. Running gives you a bit of spring which is good for the kick in diagonal gait, but if you are not particularly fit, it is probably best avoided, because of the high injury risk.
I have noticed that a lot of people, even if otherwise fit, don't have enough upper body strength and endurance to learn to XC well, so arm work is important. In addition to Nordic Walking, maybe try a bit of swimming. Frontcrawl is similar to the arm action in ski-ing. It also helps core strength. Breaststroke leg action helps for skating, herringbone, and snowploughs. If you can do it, butterfly is great for the double-poling action. If you like kayaking, or rowing then they are helpful too.
For balance, stand on one leg! Wobble boards are good too, as is walking on rough ground. Roller-blading looks good, although I haven't tried it. The real keenies go roller-ski-ing, which is very ski-specific for technique, fitness and balance if you do it properly. I don't recommend doing that without a good coach, as it is easy to pick up bad habits.
If, like me last winter, you get within three weeks of your trip and haven't done nearly enough training, then get out the poles and go Nordic Walking up your local mountains. That will reduce the muscle soreness when you actually get on skis. A couple of swimming and cycling sessions will be a useful addition. I didn't do much cycling last year and really missed it when skating, although walking kept me fitter for classic than I expected.
Now to practice what I preach. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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peura,
I ski cross country and I race on rollerskis over the summer (next race is at the Hetton Bike track near Durham on Saturday 6th Sept if anyone is interested, 15km classic). I also do a lot of bike work to keep fit by cycling to work about 4 times a week. I'm doing about 120miles of cycling a week. Keeps me reasonable fit, though running would be better, but i hate running so wouldn't keep it up. Still can't keep up with the juniors, but I'm knocking decent chunks of my times when I compare the same races from year to year.
On the question of losing weight and reducing waist measurements. I started cycling to work to get fit the year I took up rollerskiing as I needed to get fit for my first long race of 7.5km and I also needed to lose weight as my weight had crept up to 13stones. Cycling has brought it down to 11stone 11 at the moment and I've dropped about 3inches of my waist to about 29 or 30 inches.
nordicfan,
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I have noticed that a lot of people, even if otherwise fit, don't have enough upper body strength and endurance to learn to XC well, so arm work is important.
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I need to do more upperbody and abdomen work for the classic race coming up, unfortunatley I cracked a rib a few weeks ago so haven't done as much as I wanted to before the Hetton Race. We'll see how it goes, but it will be a double pole race in the main. Trouble with classic on rollers is that unless there are steep uphills you can double pole everything.
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Thanks both for the very interesting posts.
Dave Horsley, I knew you were a keen xc skier. Good luck in the races. I'm don't think I'm planning on being at the level your level (probably ever). I'm not sure where I could do rollerskiing/skating around here. And for some reason I'm (probably irrationally) more concerned about injuries if I were to try either than I would be with either xc skiing or ice skating.
Our intention is simply to us xc skiing in the way most nordic families do - as a replacement for being able to go for a walk in the countryside. I don't expect to be doing being day long "hikes" this time. I've been trying to get fitter for, I guess the last 3 months (  I didn't realise it was that long). I've done this by following a half hour running program and some simple body weight exercises. I've now finished the running thing and was starting to wonder do I increase time or distance next? I've yet to get my weight down the point at which Dave Horsley considered himself overweight   . For various reasons I've tried to avoid going to a gym, preferring to do exercise either in "the great outdoors" or at home. I'm not normally someone who suffers from muscle soreness, likely I don't extend myself enough. Only the running program has had me suffering with stiff muscles the next day. My legs have always been strong, in my younger days I would swim and cycle a lot. I've been trying to work on arm strength a little, by doing pull ups and press ups, but I know that this not the same as using them for xc skiing.
As to the list of exercise, currently my position is:
Running: able to run half an hour without getting very breathless, or (now) very leg sore.
Walking: Haven't done so much now I'm trying the running thing, but still confident I could walk 10 miles without notice.
Cycling: I haven't cycled for years but I'm considering cycling to work. This will likely involve the train as well (otherwise would be ~30 miles each way).
Swimming: Again I haven't swam for years. I do mean to start again. The problem for me with front crawl is that it's too much of a pain to have to overtake people all the time. In most length swimming sessions I've been had to overtake people whilst I'm still doing breaststroke (and they are doing front crawl). I'd rather not mention butterfly because I'm fairly sure I could only do about 100m before having to stop, whereas the others I would be disappointed if I couldn't do a mile (nonstop) without any training. Maybe I could train to do more on butterfly, but it's really not a stroke I could ever do. I think my problem lies in the kick/wiggle. I do find I hard to do any sort of "interval training" in the pool because there are normally too many "slow" people in the lanes to allow me to "sprint" even doing breaststroke and in my unfit condition of last year.
Any one with any ideas for downhill skiing? Possibly including trying telemark this year because I think it's time.
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peura, Dave Horsley, I'd tentively suggest that in both of your programs there's too much emphasis on cv work and not enough (if any) resistance work.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| peura wrote: |
| Any one with any ideas for downhill skiing? Possibly including trying telemark this year because I think it's time. |
I've heard telemark burns the thighs more and the bum muscles less.
For downhill skiing maybe some of these drills work ....
http://www.skinnyskis.com/article.aspx?id=3
The Pole-bounding inparticular looks like a good way to train your body to descend and build up strength with intervals.
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Pole-bounding, Hiking
This is the easiest (and cheapest) way to convince your body that it really can ski. Using an older pair of shorter classic poles, carry them along on any hilly terrain on which you run or hike. On the steeper hills simply use your poles like you would for classic skiing, focusing on the pole-plant, which should engage your arms and shoulders. A more specific and strenuous workout is to bound with each step, exploding from one foot to the other, with a slight delay, as if you are gliding. On steep terrain these bounds are difficult, and can be sustained for only 30 sec to one minute before you tire quickly. |
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DB, don't you mean xc skiing for your skinnyskis link?
Kramer, you could well be right. Certainly I'm looking for ideas. As you may be aware the closest I'm getting to resistance work has been doing this. Although, I'm trying to do a few pullups in addition as well and considering giving "lunge jumps" a try.
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FAQ
that's the trouble sometimes, you've no idea of the expertise of the contributors 