 Poster: A snowHead
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Layne,
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rob@rar, humour me. Because I know you are an honest bloke and really I am not anto-helmet. Just a bit middle aged and a born sceptic. How long were you skiing before you bought a helmet? And in all that time did you ever suffer some sort of head injury?
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Not a great argument. I've never had to make use of a seat belt in a car, life insurance, fire extinguisher, smallpox vaccination, airbag, nuclear deterrent etc. and yet they are still worth having just in case. Incidentally, those people who have suffered catastrophic head injuries while skiing who might have been saved by a helmet are probably not in a position to post on Snowheads.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Comedy Goldsmith, I think you need a name change. Unless the first word's meant to be ironic.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Announcing ...
International No-helmet Day
I may need a little help organising this. The idea is that no one wears a helmet and we see how many people die or suffer a serious head injury, compared to 'helmet days'. |
No need to run an experiment: we already have plenty of data. A plot of the frequency of helmet use versus rate head injuries over the last decade or so is all rational people need. But most people don't act rationally.
I'd go the other way: campaign for full-face helmets, then wearing the helmets in your car, then in bed. Eventually someone will work it out.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
But most people don't act rationally.
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No, I'm afraid they don't. If they did, they would talk seriously to their family/kids about safety and ensure they had the skills necessary. But they don't. Like all lazy herd animals they do the helmet thing and mentally go "tick, job done".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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One of the things I love about skiing is the opportunity to act irrationally! I don't care whether people wear helmets or not, although it would be nice to see a little bit more respect for the people who reach a different irrational decision to your irrational decision. So much heat, so little light...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| One of the things I love about skiing is the opportunity to act irrationally! .. |
but woe betide you if you're the uphill skier 
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| philwig wrote: |
| No need to run an experiment: we already have plenty of data. A plot of the frequency of helmet use versus rate head injuries over the last decade or so is all rational people need. But most people don't act rationally. |
I have no idea what the data says, as I haven't bothered to follow the interminable helmet threads that stain this forum. But, as someone who works with statistical models on a daily basis, I certainly wouldn't for a moment trust the judgement of anyone who suggested that a simplistic plot of this type could tell you anything meaningful without very careful consideration of many other factors.
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Why are lots more helmets being used? Facebook, youtube and twitter.
Bare with me...
With the prevalence of (good and very good) video cameras that allow people to record their actions/the actions of others, more and more people have wanted to show off what they're doing. In order to get the best out of these gadgets they need a solid mounting point. So they buy a helmet.
Out of all the helmets at lift queues, how many of them have GoPros sticking up from them? I was in the 3 valleys for a few weeks working earlier in the season and at certain points at least 50% of the helmets on view had some camera sticking up from it. I'm 'guilty' of it myself.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| I am yet to find a coherent argument against doing it, just lots of people who "don't want to" - that's fine, but to get all defensive about people who choose to wear one seems a bit odd. |
There has been what seems like a significant rise in people wearing helmets on CairnGorm over this half term period, it also seems from observation (and heard this from a few instructors as well) a corresponding increase in outright muppetry on the slopes and people either wholly unaware of the FIS rules or I reckon quite a lot simply in the I've got a helmet, I'm alright and I don't give a damn about anyone else camp! 
There's no point wearing a helmet if you switch your brain off when the lid goes on!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 20-02-13 21:47; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
| ...the I've got a helmet, I'm alright and I don't give a damn about anyone else camp! |
I can't think of any reason to believe that the people in this camp wouldn't also be in it if they weren't wearing helmets. Correlation is not causation.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Jonny Jones, until the start of half term I had not seen a single skier/skier collision on CairnGorm Mountain this season (or elsewhere in Scotland for that matter), I've witnessed several over the last couple of weeks and the people involved were ALL wearing lids and goggles. Entirely co-incidence, I don't think so because the number of non-lidded skiers is still large.
Some of the worst riding and downright dangerous riding at that I've witnessed this season has been from people wearing full face helmets - there seems to be two problems here, 1) Covered face give sense of invincibility through anonymity and encourages those who are that way minded to not give a damn about anyone else, 2) vastly reduced spatial awareness and peripheral senses - even more of a problem for boarders who already have a blindside when making heel turns.
As gear improves or gives the feeling of improving one's own safety there seems to be a corresponding disregard for other peoples safety and wellbeing, and it's not just safety it's about respecting other hill users so everyone can have a good day. As helmet use continues to rise there is no corresponding reduction in head injuries including tragic fatal accidents in snowsports (which fortunately are extremely rare). So is this down to the the protection offered by helmets being marginal or is increased use of helmets bringing other factors into play such as either increased risk taking or less respect for other mountain users?
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In Madonna di Campiglio this week, then only people that seem to be not wearing helmets are ski instructors......
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You know it makes sense.
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Winterhighland, how many of those people you've seen have incidents do you perceive to be beginners or very new skiers/boarders (Assuming you saw them skiing before the incident)?
I think that it's possible that it's not an invincibility cloak that a helmet provides, but a lack of education/knowledge for new skiers/boarders. My own experience as a relatively new skier (last 5 years) is that I've never really been told/taught the FIS code either by a TO providing my first trip, or in my ski lessons. My OH being an experienced skier made sure I knew it before my first trip.
How many new skiers know that there's even a code?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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foxtrotzulu,
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| Not a great argument. I've never had to make use of a seat belt in a car, life insurance, fire extinguisher, smallpox vaccination, airbag, nuclear deterrent etc. and yet they are still worth having just in case. |
Hold on a sec I have not presented an argument yet. I simply asked a question. Some interesting examples you give there btw. I could pick anyone of them and rip apart there relevance to the helmet debate but anyway life is too short.
rob@rar, thanks for the expansion on your experience. I'll let people draw there own conclusions. Nothing mischievious in my saying that. I just don't draw a compelling conclusion from it personally. Which often seems to be the case when it comes to helmet use.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Winterhighland, if Jonny Jones is a statistician, you're going to lose this argument 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Winterhighland, I don't deny your observed correlation, although it's hardly based on a statistically valid sample. But do you think that it's equally plausible that people who intend to ski like nutters or have a history of crashing irresponsibly choose to wear helmets to defend themselves? That's what I meant about correlation and causation - there could be a common cause that leads both to helmet wearing and to bad behaviour.
I've never noticed anyone wearing a full face helmet in a ski resort; perhaps that's a Scottish thing. But a well fitting standard helmet and goggles give no reduction in spacial awareness over a beanie and sunnies. In fact, googles give better peripheral vision than sunglasses, and a helmet is (with my shape head, anyway) less likely to migrate downward into the top of the eyes than a hat.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was just thinking about posting a topic on helmet wearing, but stopped when I saw the story about the 10year old girl who hit the tree. Of course, many parents put their children in helmets as a safety impulse. The children grow up with them and now we see more adults wearing them. I skied for the first time in years without one last week - I had my super furry double-lined hat (I know - it's not going to save me from a rock) but I'm a cautious skier who does her darnest not to fall, and I keep a paranoid eye out for other people. I am a very poor poker player, but does anyone actually know 'what the chances are?'
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Layne, I wouldn't want you to draw a conclusion. I think helmet use is a purely personal decision, and I wouldn't want anyone to be persuaded or dissuaded from their use by my choice (not least because sometimes I wear one and sometimes I don't). People should feel comfortable with whatever they decide to do, and perhaps be a little bit more respectful of people who reach a different conclusion.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just got back from Aspen and I think I only saw 1 or 2 people without a helmet. The next week I went to a nearby hill in Wisconsin and probably less than 50% had helmets. Which is ironic because the Wisconsin crowd were surely trying to kill themselves in all manners. (I know it's sad, but what can you do when you live in Chicago)
I also saw from the lift a snowboarder bite it on a medium size jump with no helmet. He was in the process of getting back up when another boarder came over the ramp. The 2nd guy's snowboard glanced right off of the 1st guys head, smacking the back of his head with a loud thump. I saw him trying to stand up, but for sure his day was over.
Helmets are so comfortable and warm these days, I don't personally see anything against them. Doesn't take much of a bump to the head to ruin your day.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Sofia wrote: |
| Of course, many parents put their children in helmets as a safety impulse. |
They do, but most don't do any more than that. I can guarantee most don't know the FIS Rules, don't impart them and nor do they take the time to educate their kids on which line to take, where to stop, where the dangers are. Just sticking a lid on yer kid is not looking after them. Educating them about mountain craft and technique is.
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Layne, Forgive me. I misunderstood your point. I thought you were suggesting that as Robrar had been skiing for several years and had got by OK without a helmet then in some way that suggested that helmets were not useful.
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Scomber, if it's on the assertion that increasing helmet use is not reducing serious head trauma in snowsports I don't think so.
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| This was supported by a presentation at the last ISSS meeting by the Chief Medical Examiner for the state of Vermont, USA - Dr Paul L. Morrow. Dr Morrow was of the opinion that of 54 deaths at commercial ski areas in Vermont from 1979/80 to 1997/98, helmets would not have been of any particular value in saving any of the lives lost - as the degree of trauma simply overwhelmed any benefits that the helmet might convey in an impact. To quote Shealy et al again - a team of highly respected ski injury researchers - "On the basis of results to date, there is no clear evidence that helmets have been shown to be an effective means of reducing fatalities in alpine sports". |
ISSS is the International Society for Snowsports Safety.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Winterhighland, no it was this assertion:
| Winterhighland wrote: |
| Jonny Jones, until the start of half term I had not seen a single skier/skier collision on CairnGorm Mountain this season (or elsewhere in Scotland for that matter), I've witnessed several over the last couple of weeks and the people involved were ALL wearing lids and goggles. Entirely co-incidence, I don't think so because the number of non-lidded skiers is still large. |
you might very well be right, but arguing this point without data that can back you up to a statistician isn't going to work.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| I've never noticed anyone wearing a full face helmet in a ski resort; perhaps that's a Scottish thing. |
Nor have I and it's certainly not a Scottish thing but maybe it is indeed a weird Cairngorm mid-term thing this season.
winterhighland, most people I ski with (in Scotland) wear helmets (and you know most of them too) but none of them are in any danger of colliding with anyone else or being collided with by out of control skiers or boarders, and I'm pretty sure that's a long way down on the list of considerations as to why they wear them (it certainly is for me). I have noticed that you are a helmet antagonist though and don't really know why because in my experience, nobody give a monkey's one way or the other.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So from ISSS they will make you look pretty and keep the tills rolling, but not stop one from dying
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Sofia wrote: |
| Of course, many parents put their children in helmets as a safety impulse. |
They do, but most don't do any more than that. I can guarantee most don't know the FIS Rules, don't impart them and nor do they take the time to educate their kids on which line to take, where to stop, where the dangers are. Just sticking a lid on yer kid is not looking after them. Educating them about mountain craft and technique is. |
You're right about educating your kids, Bode, but the only logical conclusion to draw from this is that you should both educate your kids and stick a helmet on them. (I do.)
And, with (non sarcastic) respect, you can't guarantee much about what anyone else does unless you've carried out some sort of proper study.
The fact that kids with helmets don't always look uphill before setting off isn't (I suspect) to do with a lack of education, it's to do with them being kids.
You also made the point earlier that it's sensible to wear a helmet when rock climbing because you can't control the rocks.
Unless you have developed a way of controlling other skiers and boarders, surely the same applies while skiing?
I personally literally couldn't care less what other people do, but a helmet almost certainly saved my life in Colorado a few years back, when I was taken out by a young boarder at speed. I flew out of my skis and landed backwards, head down, on an icy slope strewn with little rocks.
One of those rocks put a one inch (ish) dent in the helmet right at the base of my skull.
I got up and skied away - without the helmet I don't think I'd have done that. (I showed it later to a friend who's a neurosurgeon and he was very much of the opinion that, given the position of the dent relative to my skull and spine, I was almost certainly a goner.)
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
I have no idea what the data says, as I haven't bothered to follow the interminable helmet threads that stain this forum. But, as someone who works with statistical models on a daily basis, I certainly wouldn't for a moment trust the judgement of anyone who suggested that a simplistic plot of this type could tell you anything meaningful without very careful consideration of many other factors. |
An ad hominem argument backed by an appeal to higher authority (your unstated expertise in the field).
I can't find an actual rational argument in your text, which is what our earlier posts were about. A rational approach would be to check the published data and then form an opinion.
Data of course is plural. What do you do with those models, sweep the floor around them?
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You know it makes sense.
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Guys, the wars over. People voted with their feet and its done. Everything else is pretty much moot.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| moffatross wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| I've never noticed anyone wearing a full face helmet in a ski resort; perhaps that's a Scottish thing. |
Nor have I and it's certainly not a Scottish thing but maybe it is indeed a weird Cairngorm mid-term thing this season.
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Lots of Scottish kayakers use fullface helmets these days, I know several of them who ski/board too - probably just a case of using one sport's helmets for the other (ie with Sweet, the ski and kayak helmets are identical except for the colours, goggle clip and the fact the ski lids had an extra cold temps test).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| northernsoulboy wrote: |
The fact that kids with helmets don't always look uphill before setting off isn't (I suspect) to do with a lack of education, it's to do with them being kids.
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Would you use or condone the same argument about children crossing the road? Because for me, the same principles apply - children often need the message drummed in. Or educating, if you like.
That said, one is about day-to-day life and the other a holiday, and human nature is a factor. But both arguments/situations are hard to separate IMV.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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northernsoulboy, if I were to carry out "a proper study" and asked well-crafted questions about the FIS Rules and whether or not parents had made sure their children were aware of the dangers etc, I'm prepared to bet the mortgage on an exceedingly low percentage pass rate. Face it, most stick a lid on their kid, think that's job done and accept that kids will be kids. Well, it's not true, kids are well capable of understanding and learning the rules, more so than adults actually. I used to teach weeks on end of school kids in France and Scotland and they are very used to being given direction and they do learn. Adults meanwhile think they already know it all.
The other thing rarely talked about is choice of resort. Why do people take their kids to over-crowded mega resorts, where home runs get super busy and worn down to ice? Far better to pick somewhere less fashionable and quiet, they do exist.
How come everyone that has a near-miss head injury just happens to have a handy neurosurgeon to validate their choice of headware?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Didn't see that many in niederau last year but the vast majority were wearing them in st Anton a few weeks later. Maybe it depends on the level of skier too?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hubby and I bought and wore them for the first time this year, I'm not sure what the turning point was? hubby fell last year and banged his head and had made the decision to get one, I just kind of went along with it, I cant say I felt any different wearing one, it was cold at new Year so certainly didnt feel any hotter than wearing a hat, but we go again next week and if its sunny I'm not sure how I will feel then?
Our chairlift survey also showed a vast majority wearing them, and everyone on the ski bus was too, Ellmau, austria that was.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Cynic wrote: |
| So from ISSS they will make you look pretty and keep the tills rolling, but not stop one from dying |
Straw man argument.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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At a large Austrian mountain restaurant recently I was struck by the problem that helmet-owners were having in finding a perch-point for their lids.
The rustic tables were covered with large plates of excellent (i.e. non-French, generous portions, superb value) food, large glasses of delicious Austrian beer, pairs of ski gloves and the occasional woolly hat. No room for brain buckets on the table, unless we were going to starve.
Interestingly, the majority had placed their helmets on the only available space left - the front of a large open roaring fire.
I immediately wondered whether people viewed their helmets as bloated chestnuts and invited my friend to "chuck them on the fire". He declined to do this, but captured a photo. I'll see if we can obtain this pic and bring it to you. It'll save me writing another thousands words of description.
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| philwig wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
I have no idea what the data says, as I haven't bothered to follow the interminable helmet threads that stain this forum. But, as someone who works with statistical models on a daily basis, I certainly wouldn't for a moment trust the judgement of anyone who suggested that a simplistic plot of this type could tell you anything meaningful without very careful consideration of many other factors. |
An ad hominem argument backed by an appeal to higher authority (your unstated expertise in the field).
I can't find an actual rational argument in your text, which is what our earlier posts were about. A rational approach would be to check the published data and then form an opinion.
Data of course is plural. What do you do with those models, sweep the floor around them? |
 But I'll respond anyway.
I'm fully aware of the follies of ad hominem arguments. But, as I'm sure you're aware, statistics easily misinterpreted, can be complex and - as every politician knows - are simple to manipulate to support almost any argument. When you're assessing any conclusion based on statistical research, the competence and potential bias of the person conducting the study are very relevant pieces of data unless it's been peer-reviewed by suitable experts or you have the time and ability to conduct that level of review yourself. I would suggest that it might be smart to exercise caution when relying on the opinion of someone who believes that 'a plot of the frequency of helmet use versus rate head injuries over the last decade or so is all rational people need' as, clearly, that person either lacks training or, worse, understands the folly of the their argument and is seeking to support a particular agenda with superficial use of statistics.
I don't feel the need to defend my 'unstated expertise' in statistics. I'll simply point out that the frequency plot argument is the same line of reasoning that (and this tale is possibly apocryphal) led people to believe that schizophrenia is infectious because people who lived near early mental health institutions were more likely to suffer from the condition. The reality, of course, was that the presence of the hospitals increased awareness of the condition amongst physicians which raised the incidence of correct diagnosis.
Correlation can imply direct causation. It can also suggest common causation. It can also be distorted and even reversed by further variables that are cross-correlated with the observed dependent or independent variables. It can also be caused by chance - by definition, the typical 95% test of statistical significance will be wrong one time in twenty. Unless you're careful, an assessment of twenty variables will one find an incorrect correlation with one of those factors. A 'plot of the frequency of helmet use versus rate head injuries over the last decade' will tell you none of those factors - although it might help you to know where to base your next line of inquiry it and might help you to explain your conclusions with a less technical audience.
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| Chasseur wrote: |
| northernsoulboy wrote: |
The fact that kids with helmets don't always look uphill before setting off isn't (I suspect) to do with a lack of education, it's to do with them being kids.
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Would you use or condone the same argument about children crossing the road? Because for me, the same principles apply - children often need the message drummed in. Or educating, if you like.
That said, one is about day-to-day life and the other a holiday, and human nature is a factor. But both arguments/situations are hard to separate IMV. |
It's not really an argument, and I don't condone it, it's just a fact of life.
Of course kids walk into the road without looking - that doesn't mean they haven't been told not to do it, but they're human, and young.
Ski-ing wise, I can only speak for my own kids and others I know, but mine have been skiing since the age of four, I have told them until I'm blue in the face to look uphill, don't stand in the middle of the piste, wait by the edge, watch your speed etc etc and with all that 'drumming' they still do these things occasionally because they're kids (they're 12 now, we've just come back from a half term holiday and actually this was the first time I didn't have to get arsey with them).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Face it, most stick a lid on their kid, think that's job done and accept that kids will be kids.
How come everyone that has a near-miss head injury just happens to have a handy neurosurgeon to validate their choice of headware? |
No, I won't 'face it' because I don't think it's true.
On the contrary, I'm absolutely convinced that most parents warn their kids over and over again to be careful when skiing. I do it myself and I've heard many others do it. Why wouldn't they?
I have a friend who's a neurosurgeon. Sorry about that.
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| northernsoulboy wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Face it, most stick a lid on their kid, think that's job done and accept that kids will be kids.
How come everyone that has a near-miss head injury just happens to have a handy neurosurgeon to validate their choice of headware? |
No, I won't 'face it' because I don't think it's true.
On the contrary, I'm absolutely convinced that most parents warn their kids over and over again to be careful when skiing. I do it myself and I've heard many others do it. Why wouldn't they?
I have a friend who's a neurosurgeon. Sorry about that. |
Quite frankly its beyond me the resistance to helmets - theyre warm confortable not sweaty and if they offer you even half a chance in a fall whats not to like?
Ive not yet heard one creditable arguement for NOT wearing a helmet. This crap about people wearing a helmet andconsidering they are invincible is just bollo$ks.
Someone skiing like that will cause accidents regardless.
As for the neurosurgeon jibe whats wrong with people on here do they just want to ague for the sake of it due to having a small willie? If I had a friend who was a neurosurgeon who told me that Id damn well take notice and pass it on!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 21-02-13 12:35; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
the figure was slightly lower
