feef, I guess it's the word 'only' that makes you assume that statement is bad news. Why not view it as [positive] "50% of buried skiers equipped with a beacon are found alive" [/positive] and then wonder how many of those would have not been found alive if they hadn't been wearing one?
I don't know one way or another, but I think there is a lot of 'lies, damn lies and statistics' to get to the bottom of in some of the things posted about all these safety devices
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
barry, it seems to me that once you are buried, however effective your beacon might be, you are still down to a) not being squished/battered to death first, and b) how effective your companions - assuming you are skiing with some, are at finding you/digging you out, whether they have a transceiver or otherwise.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, precisely! Mind you, if you didnt drop in in the first place then you'd be happily skipping along on another low level slope in the sunshine, or perhaps enjoying an early apres making up a few war stories
I am really shocked by the general perception of the available tools - I thought that knowledge development was tracking at least as fast as kit development over the past few seasons, but not so sure now
Yes, but quantifying that 50% would make a HUGE difference.. if they could say what proportion of the 50% who didn't survive died due to their party either not having beacons themselves, or not knowing how to use them as opposed to those who were well equipped and well trained/experienced in usage, then it woud be a more useful number.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The comment about jumping rocks is spot on. I triggered a tiny slide due to a small area of wind slab building up just below a couple of rocks. Enough to sweep your feet away even though all the rest of the snow was much more stable.
Yes, but quantifying that 50% would make a HUGE difference.. if they could say what proportion of the 50% who didn't survive died due to their party either not having beacons themselves, or not knowing how to use them as opposed to those who were well equipped and well trained/experienced in usage, then it woud be a more useful number.
but this suggests that your perception is that beacons are effective at saving lives much of the time. I dont think thats ever been the case. As Megamum mentioned, you may not survive the intial trauma, and indeed you may well suffocate, thats all before you factor in whether everyone has a beacon, knows how to use it, yours is switched on etc etc
Would I rather be on a dodgy slope with experienced or inexperienced beacon users? I'd rather not be on the slope!
The suggestion that an avvy beacon / snorkel / airbag (ALONE) makes it safer to travel in avvy terrain is very questionable, and there are easier, cheaper and far more effective ways to keep out of harms way (within a reasonalbe level of acceptable risk - which is when those tools DO become a backup safety factor) - eg lovely stable conditions with a good forecast, and I strike out for a hut-to-hut, weather turns unexpectedly with a big dump, and all of a sudden i'm stuck in dodgy conditions, i'll be glad of my kit then for sure (though still more reliant on knowledge to get me out safely / get hunkered down / call out the troops)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
feef wrote:
sah wrote:
Maybe. Risk homeostatis (aka compensation) is an issue with ABS as moffatross suggested (see the excellent piece on pistehors by davidof).
An interesting read that on Pistehors, but I'm curious about the statement "However the reality is that only 50% of buried skiers equipped with a beacon are found alive." That's quite a staggering statement to make without explanation. Is that because some who have been buried WITH a beacon were skiing with those without beacons, or with those who didn't know how to use them? Or are they just not as effective as we're led to believe? Without explaining it, it seems a little alarmist.
I believe that stat comes from an SLF study (davidof provided several references below the piece)) and AFAIK is thought to be accurate but is not all that up to date (I *think* it was published in 2008 but the data comes from a long period before then). Reasons include those you mention, plus the possibility of fatal injury sustained during the fall or very deep burial (e.g. in a terrain trap) where the victim suffocated before rescuers could dig them out. I suspect some people die because companions panic and go for help rather than initiating rescue themselves. I seriously hope those stats improve with current digital beacons, I've not come across research that shows that yet, but when I get time I might have a look.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
barry wrote:
I am really shocked by the general perception of the available tools - I thought that knowledge development was tracking at least as fast as kit development over the past few seasons, but not so sure now
Spend a day at any ski centre and you'll see evidence to support your feelings. Scary, but true.
Maybe enough is not being done from an education point of view.
When you buy a lift pass, do you get any leaflet material about avalanche risk handed out?
On the lifts taking you to the top of the big pointy thing covered in snow, is there any education on the way up there. There's a captive audience when in a gondola or coming out of a lift station.
Most people out skiing on the hill have no idea about the associated dangers, all they see is fun. Only the mountain users that have a little knowledge know that there's more knowledge out there to get. It's getting that initial message to those that don't know that more work is needed.
Loads of great observations in this post.
moffatross, you seem like a sensible person to go skiing with... maybe we should hook up some time
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
shoogly, has certainly whiled away a boring morning's work
good point about resorts, I naturally think out-of-bounds when thinking avvy risk. One alarming thing though I have noticed is the amount of punters who ignore avvy warning flags and announcements in resort . If patrol reckon you should give it a miss, that's generally good enough for me. I have heard announcements and warnings posted in resort so i think comms are improving, still though you cant force people
Good link, thanks. I was going to moan about lack of references to back up their stats, but if you carry on to the end it seems to list quite a few.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
clarky999 wrote:
Skiers can normally hike back up if need be (hard boots dig into the snow on steep slopes better than soft boarding boots), .... you might consider calling for a heli.
For boarders in deep powder, you have to use the board an an anchor above you across the slope and pull up against that. Skiers have a bit more flexibility, but I don't see a significant difference there. You can get back up. The main issue for boarders is on harder packed stuff - there, taking your board off at all puts you at significant risk, as you have at that point no edge at all.
If you're going to expect someone to have to get back uphill (eg if you're a heli-ski guide), then you'll mostly be guiding on skis with touring bindings or a split board for that reason.
Calling a heli... if there's any avalanche risk at all, a bit of rotor wash isn't a bad way to kick it off. It depends where you ride. In North America at least I think you're unlikely to be long-lined off something, more likely you'd be rescued more traditionally and then heli used for evacuation. Terrain in Europe is different.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Calling a heli... if there's any avalanche risk at all, a bit of rotor wash isn't a bad way to kick it off. It depends where you ride. In North America at least I think you're unlikely to be long-lined off something, more likely you'd be rescued more traditionally and then heli used for evacuation. Terrain in Europe is different.
I've never been in that situation myself, though I seem to recall LeCluse and Plake (in Chamonix?) calling in heli evac a couple of years ago after things warmed up (I think) and got too dangerous to continue... Obviously depends on if you can find a safe spot to wait.
How close to the ground does a heli have to be for rotor wash to be a significant problem? No experience of this myself, I was thinking more along the lines of winched off the hill on a cable or somehting. I'm sure rescue services would rather come out in the heli before the avi has buried you than after.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Well in terms of 'education' I don't think I'm ready (and may never be) for the risks of 'off-piste' - I have a fairly well developed 'self preservation' instinct!! However I am very interested in the subject (as you will have seen), so if anyone with knowledge finds themselves skiing with me at any point and feels like pointing out safer/unsafe areas in terms of 'avi risk' and why, you would find an interested listener in me. FWIW even as an on-piste skier I always take note of the flags when we see them and anything that we see written and point it out to the kids.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum, it really aint all that difficult to learn some basic but useful tips. Have a look at
these are the guys that do the daily forecasting in Scotlands big 5 climbing/skiing areas (BMG the link works this time!). 51 avalanches reported already this season (since early December)
even a perusal of the risk scoring scales and look at the daily forecasts can start to make you appreciate what you need to know. That and a healthy confident sense of direction to recognise aspect directions etc., is a great start, you dont have to appreciate pit mechanics and graupel layers and all that stuff to have a good working knowledge of how to choose your routes and travel more safely. I tend to refer to backcountry/off piste - you're already doing exactly the right thing in resort - observing the flags and warnings - I bet the average patroller would be happy to have a chat with you about how they do it too
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
shoogly wrote:
moffatross, you seem like a sensible person to go skiing with... maybe we should hook up some time
Ha ha, yeah. Actually, I'd say you're more Captain Sensible than me but if you're gonna start carrying a bouncy castle around on your back ...
I've just thrown caution to the wind and grabbed a few last light turns behind the house, well away from the busy Moffat pistes. But with no ski buddy to look out for me, maybe I should go sit in the naughty corner ...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
moffatross, nice!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Very long article with first hand accounts and diagrams, well worth a read and sort of reinforces the claim that avy beacons only help to locate your body, and not neccessarily alive.
Very sad, and moving piece. Worth taking some time to read, and i dont even ski off piste very often at all.
moffatross, man if that slope went, those jaggy thistles would destroy your airbag. Carnage
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
dorsetboy, just read about the tunnel creek avi. As you say a very detailed and moving account, highlights the group dynamic at work causing some possible signs of avi risk being missed.
moffatross, I'm not that sensible... I'm about to head off in the morning for a drunken weekend in Poland when I could've spent the same money on a ski holiday!
We've been there and experienced the wobbly sluffy feeling though... we skiied it and had a great run in a very remote feeling place (wooer!). Another day, who knows.
Megamum, you don't need to get into anywhere very scary at all to experience the beauty of off piste skiing. Even in Scotland, off the top of Cairngorm, you can experience the delights of pretty straightforward skiing away from the crowded slopes... takes a bit of effort for the reward, but it's, more often than not, worth it.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
waynos wrote:
the group dynamic at work causing some possible signs of avi risk being missed.
Amazing: nobody noticed that there had been 20" of snow overnight, nor realised that the 'tunnel' is very prone to sliding.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. If patrol reckon you should give it a miss, that's generally good enough for me. I have heard announcements and warnings posted in resort so i think comms are improving, still though you cant force people
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