 Poster: A snowHead
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
But I do see set periods of doing drills etc as quite separate, and definitely needed for me. Worth the investment though! (As are lessons)
|
Yes - drills ARE different. I spent four days doing quite a few, week before last, because I was skiing with brother in law who is slow, on blue slopes. I stayed behind him all the time so he could pick his own speed, and had plenty of time to practice drills - had new skis which took a bit of getting used to, so one-footed drills, pivot slips etc were all good. Plus, it was brilliantly sunny, warm and with perfect piste snow. 
|
I don't see drilling and "just skiing" as at all separate things. When I'm skiing at or near my limit. of course I'm "just skiing", and having the zen moments of feeling at one with where you're skiing is entirely dependent on getting "it" right (there is the other bit of "fun" when you're digging yourself out of some pile of snow to the taunts of your companions after having NOT got "it" right). But if in an environment where "just skiing" it would be well within my comfort zone, it's way more fun, rather than just cruise down the slope, to throw in the odd drill just as you ski along - whether that be lifting a foot and practising your balance on one foot, or throwing in some hard carves and maybe doing a boot touch or outside pole drag to practise your angulation, or a load of short radius turns to practise dynamism and rotational skills. Otherwise just bimbling along can be rather boring. Mixing in the drills with the bimbling makes it far more interesting, and keeps your skill levels topped up for when they are necessary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Does anyone stay unconsciously competent (especially on just a few weeks a year)? You certainly don't stay unconsciously competent as a piano player, even as a top professional: you have to practise as well as concertize and I should have thought the same would apply to any activity involving motor skills.[/quote]
You do stay unconsciously competent at walking, swimming, riding a bike etc without constant practice (ok life is practice for walking). My first run back on skis after a break feels a bit wierd but after that it's no different to my first dip in a pool for 6 months etc. My bugbear with the ski instruction "industry" is the myth that skiing's some tremendously difficult thing that requires constant tuition. Yes individuals can have suboptimal habits and movements etc but so can walking gait, swimming stroke etc. This is NOT to say that tuition and the benefit of an educated eye and good coaching are not very valuable, just that I can't really imagine skiing for a day concentrating on every single turn - how mentally exhausting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
fatbob,
| Quote: |
I can't really imagine skiing for a day concentrating on every single turn - how mentally exhausting.
|
Me neither. Not sure I agree about swimming: I used to be a good swimmer, I'm pretty crap at it nowadays.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Thinking about this, it's only piste skiing where I tend to be focusing on some aspect of my performance or other.
Off piste steeps and pow is different. Then I'm skiing for fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Not crap enough to instantly drown though. I could swim a lot better with some stroke coaching etc as things have definitely moved on since I was 8 years old but I can pretty much jump in a pool and pull together some co-ordinated movements without thinking about them. That's not so different to a lot of skiers, barring the alienness of the boot/binding thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
fatbob,
| Quote: |
Not crap enough to instantly drown though
|
I didn't realise we were talking about extremes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's funny swimming is something I don't have a problem with. Though I might not swim from one 6 month to the next, I never experience a moment of doubt/hesitation when I go to swim again - I feel as at home in the water as I do on my own two feet and I've never had a swimming lesson in my life since I swimming in the 5x7m pool at primary school. I find the same with riding a bicycle, and bar getting my muscles back I've never had a problem on the back of a horse - although I had tonnes of lessons when I was younger. I have a slight amount of hesitation when I get on a set of ice skates, and roller skates and a fair amount when I get on skis after a 6mth break. However, as I type this, I have been stuck by a thought. I learned to swim, cycle and horse ride from when I was a very young child, I did my ice skating and roller skating as a younger teen and the skiing not until I was 22, and I didn't ski 'properly', i.e. not in a snowplough, until I was 40.
Perhaps 'instinct' comes with growing up learning something, maybe we have to rely on brute force learning and repetition when we are older and perhaps this is why some of us spend our time practising and others spend their time skiing - maybe it depends on when you learned.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 18-01-13 21:33; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
(Some) theory and evidence suggests that the typical "shape" of improvement is a kind of law of diminishing returns - ie, you get better quickly at first with practice then you reach a plateau where the improvements are much smaller.
It also suggests that skill fade follows the same curve - so if you've got to the flatter bit (as you probably have with cycling) you probably won't notice much deterioriation over time. If you're still in the steep bit (as you may be as an occasional recreational skier) then you will likely experience much more fade.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Megamum wrote: |
maybe it depends on when you learned
|
I think you've definitely got something here. And, going back to previous posts, it's equally true of piano playing/sight reading music too. My daughter, who learned young, has no difficulty with these; I, on the other hand, trying to learn at roughly the same time as she did, and practising probably rather more ... 
Edit: But I accept a sample size of two is hardly significant!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think it depends on how often you ski as well. Perhaps if you only ski for 1 week a year then you don't want to practise, if you ski a bit more often you will inevitably have good and bad days and have a bit more time to practise on the bad days. If I am having a bad day skiing I will sometimes pick one thing to concentrate on like strong pole plants and this usually helps my skiing, I suppose this could be seen as practising. I enjoy skiing more the better I ski so don't really see practising as a chore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
lynseyf,
| Quote: |
I enjoy skiing more the better I ski
|
I think that's the point for many who - from time to time - ski mindfully, take the odd lesson, practise what they've learned. It's not that millions of lessons, hours of practice and no fun at all are the only legitimate pathway to skiing. Daft, therefore, to argue at the extreme ends of the spectrum. And, btw, I'm far from sure that the way people speak has anything to do with this. (For my part, I often wish that something other than estuary English could be heard in Hemel - which isn't even in Essex, ffs. Still, I shouldn't complain, the people who teach me there speak with American and Welsh accents.  )
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| My bugbear with the ski instruction "industry" is the myth that skiing's some tremendously difficult thing that requires constant tuition. |
I'm not sure that's entirely fair. I don't think there are many instructors that say you need constant instruction to maintain a level - but would normally suggest lessons are the best way to up that level. If you don't want to up that level then no problem; if you just keep doing as you always have done then you'll carry on skiing in a similar level. And that gets to the aphorism of "practice makes permanent".
What will cause a fall-off in performance is lack of practice. When coming back from a lay off, you'd probably be a way down from where you were, but you'll probably get it back in time without an instructor's help. Where an instructor would help there is to assist in the revision process - an external pair of eyes to point out where the coordination has gone amiss, and reminding you what you know but have forgotten you know (and BTW these are actually really rewarding lessons to teach.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
GrahamN, I agree.
| Quote: |
My bugbear with the ski instruction "industry" is the myth that skiing's some tremendously difficult thing that requires constant tuition
|
fatbob, What's your evidence for that statement? I've not seen any such suggestion from any part of the "ski instruction industry".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
I once skiied with an instructor and he told me my skiing on one particular run was perfect. That was about 4 years ago. I haven't managed to recreate that run in the intervening time, so sometimes I take myself off to an easy blue and think about all the lessons and drills that lead up to that perfect run. I am skiing, but I am practising. Stick me at the top of an icy mogul run and all the technique goes out the window while I try to survive. Logically, I should spend more time on the blues practising to the point where it is the only thing I know, and will easily transfer to the icy moguls.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I have three skiing modes, for want of a better word:
1. Developing my performance
2. Skiing at my performance level
3. Travelling around the mountain enjoying the company, the scenery, etc.
I might change modes from moment to moment, but providing I am skiing purposefully within that mode they are equally valid and equally enjoyable. What I don't like doing is skiing within a mode, but without much purpose or success. So if I want to ski at my performance level but things just aren't clicking together I find that a bit depressing and might switch to another mode or stop skiing for the day. If I'm trying to develop my performance I'll want to focus on it entirely and feel like I'm doing it in a systematic way. And if I feel like drifting around the mountain just being there I don't feel guilty about not developing or performing because just being there is more than good enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| pam w wrote: |
GrahamN, I agree.
| Quote: |
My bugbear with the ski instruction "industry" is the myth that skiing's some tremendously difficult thing that requires constant tuition
|
fatbob, What's your evidence for that statement? I've not seen any such suggestion from any part of the "ski instruction industry". |
You're both right it was a lazy and shorthand way of expressing something quite complex. Actually it's the acolytes of teaching systems that tend to be the most vocal about them. I know that periodic and focused assistance of an expert can be very valuable but I tend to believe that there is no shortcut for mileage and that doesn't need constant supervision. Occasional correction yes. On the other hand drop-ins on various teachers don't provide continuity so a private lesson somewhere different every year won't provide the same platform for progress as a regular if infrequent relationship with a trusted teacher. The other thing is that as an adult I couldn't cope with the intensity of a week of lessons without space to process it personally. I accept I may be both weird and quite demanding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
I tend to believe that there is no shortcut for mileage and that doesn't need constant supervision. Occasional correction yes.
|
I think there IS a shortcut for mileage, but it's only accessible for people with natural athleticism. A 2 day beginner, after 2 hours of lessons, saw me practising some of those one-footed drills and asked what I was doing. He then proceeded to do it. He had never seen snow before but was a first class cricketer (wicket keeper) so you can imagine he was a nice little mover. The other fastest learner I've ever seen, who had also not seen snow before, was a top squash player. For most of us, we need both the mileage and quite a few lessons. But it's perfectly possible to cover many miles and not improve one jot. I have several friends who are living testimony to that. I don't believe it would be possible to have quite a few good quality lessons and not improve. Especially if you practice in between.
The Inside Out formula of having the same teachers in the fridge as out on a proper mountain holiday seems ideal.
Most of the advice here, other than for complete beginners or near beginners, is to have a few private lessons during a week, and try to practice in between. Charlotte Swift, for one, is most insistent that unless you practice what you've been learning, you're wasting your money.
And I don't think any "acolytes" have been advocating constant tuition either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
there is no shortcut for mileage and that doesn't need constant supervision
|
In the finish this is what worked for me. Mileage on simple slopes proved the answer to my confidence issue where previously a substantial amount of lessons and little mileage had go me no-where. However, once that confidence had been gained I then was able to completely benefit from further lessons as I then had the confidence to do as I was asked to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
[quote="pam w"]
| Quote: |
The Inside Out formula of having the same teachers in the fridge as out on a proper mountain holiday seems ideal.
And I don't think any "acolytes" have been advocating constant tuition either. |
Agree the continuity that Inside Out provide is a great formula - and by acolytes I don't really mean people on here but say the Harald Harb, Warren Smith type junkies who are like born again believers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
say the Harald Harb, Warren Smith type junkies who are like born again believers.
|
well I've never met any of them, glad to say, so have to take your word for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Of course I'm practising .. the day I'm as good as the Herminator then I can "ski"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry to butt in pam w, but I've definitely noticed that topics in the 'bend zee knees section' of this forum and any related to lessons and learning evoke more indignant self-righteousness and that for all sorts nerdy stuff than any other sub forum of snowheads. That's why I thought this thread would also descend into the usual name-calling, patronising, poo-poo throwing farces that so many of those end up doing. I've also noticed that the most righteous voices in those threads are usually but not always, the apprentices rather than the grand masters.
I've never asked for advice there or given my opinion on anything other than the tone and the intolerance but If I wanted a response from someone, although I've never met rob@rar and don't know whether his humble, considerate and considered on-line persona reflects his real-life one and his teaching style, he is the beacon of bend zee knees that I would value a response from.
Anyway, just back from a few hiked and skinned turns above Moffat. It's not really snowed any here since Sunday and the thin frozen slush base was crusty and breaking through to grass and permafrosted peat like crispy toffee on top of textured concrete. Shouldn't have bothered, it was horrid, cloudy, bitterly windy and all the piste technique in the world doesn't help you deal with that unique, experiential thing. However, I'll be at Glenshee tomorrow for some lift-assisted skiing and they've had 20-30 cm of fresh powdery snow in the last 18 hours. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
That's why I thought this thread would also descend into the usual name-calling, patronising, poo-poo throwing farces that so many of those end up doing.
|
well aren't you glad it didn't then? Lots of different and interesting views, no name-calling, no poo-poo thrown, more than one way of skinning a cat.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
moffatross, That is the most erudite explanation of some of the technical BS that occurs on here I've read.
Then again, neither Rob@Rar (nor Easiski for another) have tried to create a new skiing vocabulary nor pretend they have divine powers. However there does appear to be a 'premium price' to BS if you're an instructor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Agenterre, it was an observation really, rather than an explanation. I wouldn't have any idea how to communicate any technical explanation, eruditely or otherwise. And I quite agree it's a shame that easiski doesn't post here any more, but on my next opportunity to ski in L2A, I will definitely want to ski with Charlotte. However, forums have a way of munching up too much time and sometimes getting too personal so I can well understand why some people move on.
| pam w wrote: |
| well aren't you glad it didn't then? Lots of different and interesting views, no name-calling, no poo-poo thrown, more than one way of skinning a cat. |
Delighted. It's very refreshing. 
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 19-01-13 17:09; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
I should have been travelling to LDA today, for Charlotte's "on2off" week. It's disappointing as the week was pitched at pretty well exactly my level, I think - most off piste weeks would be far too gnarly for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, I think I have two modes of skiing - a) practising or b) showing off.
Mostly on piste I show off! Until someone shows me up and makes me look a boy (in front of my mates)!? When I am in the park and only rotating 270 degress or hitting the knuckle on that easy red kicker, I am deffo just having a few practice laps. And when I face plant in the deep stuff or rag doll down the steep, I am obviously just on a little practice sesh.
But thinking about it, on some pistes I might 'practice' a few short radius turns just to mix it up. Dunno if I would ever call it that though...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
mr black, I like your style 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
moffatross, thanks for those kind comments. Not sure they are entirely deserved, but they are welcomed 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I would have thought, everyone would do what gave them the most enjoyment on holiday, whatever that is, (without messing up anyone elses good time that is).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
But does any of this matter? I ski to enjoy myself and am not too concerned at getting better or trying to carve instead of skid. But I'm 60 now, ski once a year if I'm lucky and don't get hung up about how good or bad I am. To each his own I say.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
