 Poster: A snowHead
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BigMacB93, it's no good, I'm definitely going to need pictures.... 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Chasseur wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Shoulders down the valley when carving? |
But what about shoulders facing the outside of the turn i.e. not facing the direction of the skis, but certainly more downhill? |
Hips are more important than shoulders (although shoulders will generally follow the hips), and this should be in proportion to and a reaction to the forces and angles that the skier is creating. So yes a measure of a countered position (hips facing slightly to the outside of the turn) is a good thing in some circumstances because it makes it slightly easier to achieve fore/aft and lateral balance as well as working with the large forces that are generated in a carved, high speed turn. Looking at images of GS skiers will give lots of examples of how much counter is being used.
The reason I don't like that Klaus Mair clip is that if you follow his spoken advice and replicate some of his demos you'd end up with excessive counter, and rather than a stronger stance you'd have a weaker stance by artificially creating an unnecessary movement at the start of the turn. Those are bad habits to get in to, and difficult to fix. I've never seen a client whose hips were excessively closed (ie too much counter to the inside of the turn, by I've seen a few that were excessively open (ie too much counter to the outside of the turn) to the extent that their outside foot is lagging behind. It's rare that recreational skiers generate the kinds of angles and forces that demand a measure of counter, and those that do tend to naturally find the countered position they need. The first time I did GS training I was complimented on my countered position, even though I had no idea what it was. It just happened naturally as a consequence of what I was doing because I was forced, for the first time, to create really big angles in order to get around the gates. |
OK, got that and with some slight relief as the instructor I had in Arabba pretty much described that first paragraph during my lesson. In fact, doesn't that get even more exaggerated in the tuck when carving large turns?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Chasseur wrote: |
| In fact, doesn't that get even more exaggerated in the tuck when carving large turns? |
I'm not sure about that. I can't think of a reason why you would want more counter just because you're in a tuck, but maybe because of the way you hold your arms it feels as if your upper body is more countered?
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| BigMacB93, it's no good, I'm definitely going to need pictures.... |
Figured I might need a picture. Haha
The exercise would still stand without the poles.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I understood, BigMacB93  . I think! You mean the exercise where you "wear" the poles, joined as you describe handle-to-basket, round your waist and then ski pushing on your knees.
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I just wrote a long moany and grumpy reply which disappeared into the special place that things sometimes like to visit.....
Can't be bothered to whinge again... but in short that chappy demos the Austrian method brilliantly.... and why should Austrians know how to teach?.... I mean... really?... They know nothing about it!...
They use this method to teach how to 'ski'. There is no seperation or cudos of 'carving' - it is skiing.
As soon as you learn to snowplough turn you are then taught the basic position to traverse and then as soon as this is taught you continue with a turn as demonstrated,... 'fanning' to eventually meet the fall line.
Does seem to work though.... just ask Marcel, he would have had this rammed down his throat in exactly this order in his Kindergarten Ski School lessons in Annaberg.... still what a silly method... just not BASI enough!
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Apropos of almost nothing at all, I had an ESF lesson last week where we asked the instructor to focus on technique. He chose to spend the lesson improving our carving. We spent two hours of an afternoon doing largely some dull exercises on greens and blues.
The following day my skiing on ice was improved beyond all belief. Anybody understand why?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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James the Last, you learned some edging skills perhaps?
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James the Last, you've done well to find ice this season - where were you, Glenshee?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, presumably. I hadn't realised they were so poor.
red 27, Tignes les Brevieres.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| James the Last wrote: |
Apropos of almost nothing at all, I had an ESF lesson last week where we asked the instructor to focus on technique. He chose to spend the lesson improving our carving. We spent two hours of an afternoon doing largely some dull exercises on greens and blues.
The following day my skiing on ice was improved beyond all belief. Anybody understand why? |
At a guess he got you standing in the right place on your skis and took you downa route to find your edges; as Rob staed above....
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You know it makes sense.
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flangesax, nothing to do with BASI. Austrian racers don't ski like that. It's skeletally weak. His style is very old school. If you watch an Interski national demo teams vid you'll see there's been a recentish convergence of form, dictated purely by what's become accepted as biomechanically efficient.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Graham Bell did the same exercise on hi altitude a few years ago, i think it was with colin jackson, Graham pops in occasionally but guess he is a little busy at St Anton right now.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I had an ESF lesson last week where we asked the instructor to focus on technique. He chose to spend the lesson improving our carving. We spent two hours of an afternoon doing largely some dull exercises on greens and blues.
The following day my skiing on ice was improved beyond all belief. Anybody understand why?
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Most of us can't carve much of a turn (if any) on red slopes, though I suspect lots of people delude themselves on that point. Exercises to improve things need to be done on easy slopes, and repeated many times. I suppose it's because many skiers just want to hoon around fast on red slopes that they never learn to carve properly, because those dull exercises on gentle slopes are indispensable. On steep stuff you are going to be scrubbing speed by skidding, inevitably. Some of the ski videos with carving exercises are very dull but they work. Best on nice newly pisted slopes so you can inspect your tracks and see the nasty messy bits.  I chairlifted over a steepish blue slope in Crest Voland last year and watched a lone ESF instructor carving down it. His tracks were a thing of beauty to behold and his skiing was on a totally different planet from what I could do on the same slope.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Most of us can't carve much of a turn (if any) on red slopes, though I suspect lots of people delude themselves on that point. Exercises to improve things need to be done on easy slopes, and repeated many times. I suppose it's because many skiers just want to hoon around fast on red slopes that they never learn to carve properly, because those dull exercises on gentle slopes are indispensable. On steep stuff you are going to be scrubbing speed by skidding, inevitably. Some of the ski videos with carving exercises are very dull but they work. Best on nice newly pisted slopes so you can inspect your tracks and see the nasty messy bits. I chairlifted over a steepish blue slope in Crest Voland last year and watched a lone ESF instructor carving down it. His tracks were a thing of beauty to behold and his skiing was on a totally different planet from what I could do on the same slope. |
That's just fear of speed and lack of control. As your speed or the surface conditions increase toward your internal 'limiter' - we all have one - you instinctively start to stiffen up. For many that includes your brain. It's something I've written about elsewhere. As you stiffen your muscles your skis start bouncing off the surface irregularities and you feel jarring through your whole body, you find yourself staring at your ski-tips and you head screams "I'M GONNA DIE!" . . . so you shut it all down and unless you're on your arѕe and chewing snow, you usually stop at the side feeling a bit shaky and queasy from all the chemistry your endocrine system has just dumped into your bloodstream.
The exercise to build a better body response . . . nothing to do with carving technique, that's down to you and your instructor . . . is to find a section of piste on a nice sloped green or blue that is well chopped up and fairly soft, so this is usually mid to late afternoon, and start repeatedly practicing your carve down it. Ideally it should be just at the pitch and/or conditions where your carving skill begins to fall apart.
As you enter each turn say out-loud and keep repeating to yourself, "relax" and drop a little more than you normally do into the carve. keep softening your ankles and knees but don't drop your head down and bum down and back over your heels. What you're aiming for is to let your skis, boots and legs absorb what's going on under your feet while you keep your head and shoulders up and stable to see where you want to go and not staring down at the snow looking for those lumps and bumps that terrify you. If you look down you will stiffen in anticipation. You want absorb irregularities. Someone mentioned skiing with your eyes shut. That's a great balance and stability exercise in a safe place and under supervision and this is trying to achieve a similar boost to using all your senses while sliding.
It won't happen the first time but the more you run it the easier it will feel till eventually you will simply ignore the surface you're on and your body and brain will know as second nature how to respond to poor and fast surfaces. You are working on building an autonomic feedback response (a loop if you will) to the sliding conditions that doesn't intrude into your conscious skiing technique. Ideally this is a small group exercise with peer support and feedback, but you can just challenge yourself. Once you've acquired this feedback loop you can go on to more difficult conditions and do the same.
Give it a try and post some feedback . . . when you're back sliding, get well soon 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| keep softening your ankles and knees |
What do you mean by soften? Do you mean bend/flex?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Give it a try and post some feedback . . . when you're back sliding, get well soon
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thanks - that's not going to be any time soon, which is why I'm posting on SHs instead of being out on what must surely be one of the most epic skiing days of this season. I don't think I am afraid of speed, actually (well, not within reason), my problems lie elsewhere. Made some good progress with lessons with rob@rar in Tignes in October.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, NO! It's not a movement it's a 'willingness to move'. If you bend/flex you are already limiting your range of movement and will be out of 'position' or unbalanced. The last thing needed is to interfere with the stance /positioning of the technique or maneuver.
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, NO! It's not a movement it's a 'willingness to move'. |
Ummm, OK. Best of luck with demoing that.
If I have a 'willingness to be brilliant' will that help my skiing?
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| Masque wrote: |
| As you enter each turn say out-loud and keep repeating to yourself, "relax" and drop a little more than you normally do |
Same question, what does "drop a little bit more" mean? Bend/flex ankles and knees?
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| Graham Bell did the same exercise on hi altitude a few years ago, i think it was with colin jackson, Graham pops in occasionally but guess he is a little busy at St Anton right now. |
I know the drill and I think I can recall that clip when Graham was working with some celebrities to get them run GS gates faster. The frame that you create with your ski poles sits on your hips and is normally used to focus attention on what your movements your hips are making. I think in the case of the Graham Bell example it was to help keep the hips reasonabley square to the skis (ie, pointing in the same direction) rather than twisted too much inside or outside the turn (which is what I didn't like about the Klaus Mair clip earlier in this thread).
I've done that drill a couple of times and it makes me very nervous when doing it at high speed. The potential to get something wrong and skewering yourself on the poles seems pretty high.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| If I have a 'willingness to be brilliant' will that help my skiing? |
well . . . yes. Self-motivation is what drives desire for skills and success. Did you set out with a plan to be an 'ordinary' instructor with an 'average' business?
During a turn, carved or smeared, you ask us to drop into and rise from the turn compression. Everybody has a body image of what they are performing and inevitably it's not accurate, particularly when performing an unfamiliar movement. We also develop muscle memories where a position feels comfortable to us . . . it's the 'bad habit' situation. It requires a personal choice to change that, you as a coach/trainer can't order it the individual has to make a deliberate effort so if you move even a little past the point of normal position comfort you are focused on the change and can (emphasis 'can') respond positively to it. In any event by keeping a joint moving it will always have a quicker reaction to input that a settled comfortable position.
What were doing here is trying to show the process of what you yourself is doing instinctively. When your carve path passes over say a small roller on the piste you simply absorb it , your head and shoulders stable and focused on your desired path. This is a learned response to conditions and one that can and should be practiced.
It can be easily demonstrated and practiced. Here we're not talking about a teacher student situation only about an individual taking themselves momentarily outside their 'comfort zone' and altering fixed movement patterns and muscle responses in an environment that is just on the edge of their 'comfort zone' where they know they can regain control. In this case it's about carving, it's the same in most body dynamic sports, we ALL develop habitual movement patterns when we need to be far more adaptable and responsive. It can be encouraged but not forced.
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Masque, I do appreciate that it is about altering fixed or habitual movement patterns, but the trouble is I don't understand what movements you are advocating they be replaced with. Just a simple answer to the question "what do you mean by 'drop a little bit more'"? would suffice. So far I think you're saying if you get tense you'll lose your natural suspension. Beyond that I'm not sure what you're recommending.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Masque, just traverse a mogul slope, head at same level, absorb the bumps? the "tray of drinks" exercise? Your pupils will freeze to death before they've got the gist.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The carving red vs blue thing is as Masque, says, fear can take control of technique, even if you have pretty solid technique, fear and uncertainty can start to creep in and create tension, leading to exactly as he describes, I think where the reds are concerned, it's very much about the fear of "possible speed" rather than the "actual speed" itself. People generally hurtle down chopped up blues far faster than they do steep perfectly groomed reds because they are relaxed and able respond to the terrain, "relaxed muscles are fast muscles" and better than trying to micro manage every lump and bump.
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rob@rar, I'm attempting to explaining the process to someone who's who's never done it. Would it be easier if I said 'sag down into your boots'? but that implies a whole body.
It's a small extension to your normal movement pattern past the point you normally stop at. It's not an additional position.
I've got an appointment in a couple, back later.
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You know it makes sense.
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pam w, not teaching this it's a self motivated exercise for you to play with.
got to go.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
rob@rar, I'm attempting to explaining the process to someone who's who's never done it. Would it be easier if I said 'sag down into your boots'? but that implies a whole body.
It's a small extension to your normal movement pattern past the point you normally stop at. It's not an additional position.
I've got an appointment in a couple, back later. |
The only reason I'm going at this is because one of common issues I see with people who aren't carving well is too much "up and down" and not enough "side to side". Even before they are at the fall line they are flexing too much by bending their knees. This means they don't have a stacked stance to deal with the forces they will normally be generated in a high speed carved turn. The "over-flexed" position is often accompanied by insufficient edge angle (and sometimes a hip which is twisted and dropped) so they don't have much control of their turn shape when purely using the shape of the ski to carve their turns. So when I see you write "drop a little more" or "keep softening your ankles and knees" it causes alarm bells to ring.
Take a look at this junior racer training GS. What is by far the more dominant movement he is making? Is it the little bit of knee flex he has to ensure his legs don't get locked straight and he is able to absorb any bumps in the piste? Or is it his massive lateral movement, with his skis way out to the side of his centre of mass and the edge angles he's creating as a result? Is his outside leg "long and strong" for almost all of the turn, or is he excessivley flexed?
https://vimeo.com/57271271
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Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, I found your "sag into your boots" very useful on a snowboard. That, coupled with my son's yelling "bend that front knee" made a lot of difference.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, If you want someone to look at your skiing on home snow let me know, I need to get around to using my free day in Les Saisies this winter.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rjs, sadly I am out of action with an injury. Would have been nice to have a ski together. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, Yer a booger! dragging me into a completely different scenario. What I'm describing above is a little self-help exercise to assist an intermediate skier at a speed/condition/control plateau to use the familiar, introduce the unfamiliar, all in a slightly testing way to alter a mental process and not a physical one. It's about fear and not technique.
You are, for very real and perfectly reasonable reasons, focused on technique. If you want me to comment on the above I'm happy to do so but I'll do it from a body dynamic POV and not what I think is wrong with his technique. This is a short clip so this is very subjective.
1: He has a left turn bias. the range of movement at his waist and more flex in the downhill leg is markedly greater than to his right turns
2: He angulates more in the left turn
3: Right turns he's more stacked, inclined and more of a passenger on his edges.
4: he holds his right shoulder back and looks like that's making him late into the turn
5: The same with his head, held back and more upright in a right carve, pushed forward in the left, eyes are kept level except as he's closer to the red gates he nods as he's passing those.
I'd hazard that he's a bit stiff in his hips and lower spine keeping him from putting more mass over the insertion edge of the ski to let him keep a softer outside leg. At the moment he's using brute force, lots of inclination and probably a little luck to keep his skis engaged. Probably because he's young, light and agile . When he does wash-out is it predominantly when turning right?
Does he play football? I had kids in gymnastics who developed a distinct stiffness and bias in the hips once they joined the school football team. One even lost the ability to twist sumersault in both directions.
To cure the issue . . . and I'm not joking . . . teach him to dance a Rhumba or put him in a Zumba class. Young men like to muscle things through and will form fixed muscle patterns very quickly. They need to be encouraged to gain flexibility as their muscle strength grows or they will have a movement bias throughout their life.
I would point out that we're back to using an extreme situation example in a low to intermediate conversation
It's as gatecrasher points out, conquering fear is not usually a process of throwing yourself at it . . . though there are occasions . . . but a series of incremental steps that are personally timed. There are small assistances that can speed that mental process and massively improve your skiing and your pleasure in it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, yup 'sag into your boots' is right but a bit 'free form' for these uptight skiers 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Masque wrote: |
| rob@rar, Yer a booger! dragging me into a completely different scenario. What I'm describing above is a little self-help exercise to assist an intermediate skier at a speed/condition/control plateau to use the familiar, introduce the unfamiliar, all in a slightly testing way to alter a mental process and not a physical one. It's about fear and not technique. |
Nope, that's not what you said at all. Read what you wrote again, and then try to imagine how a client would respond if you had said all that to them. They will focus on the physical movements that you told them to do.
You've said you're contemplating doing some instructor exams. I'm just trying to offer some friendly advice. I think you use too many words and you focus on relatively insignificant details, ignoring the fundamentals, the big picture. If a client is anxious about speed then work on gentler terrain, not, as you advocated, terrain where their technique begins to fall apart. If you say things like "drop a little more in to the turn" and "keep softening your ankles and knees" how to do you expect them to react? Do you think that is more likely or less likely to achieve a strong stance and big enough edge angles to build their carving skills?
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| pam w wrote: |
| That, coupled with my son's yelling "bend that front knee" made a lot of difference. |
Out of interest what was the actual problem he was trying to address with that instruction ? My guess is you were 'back' in the fore\aft on the board, which straightens the front leg ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
My guess is you were 'back' in the fore\aft on the board, which straightens the front leg ?
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yes, I think that's right, and to turn the board with minimal effort you need to be on one of those leading edges (depending on which turn). I was such a very beginner, and an old bat to boot.
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rob@rar, How many skiers do you know and see who are wooden and stiff legged, who when asked to perform a movement do it in only half the range of motion you want or expect. I'm not talking about huge exaggerated movements, just small extensions to their existing range of movement within the technique they have from you or whomever to take them past their mental feedback comfort or reference point. You seem to think that this is some sort of technique change or modification, it's not, it's JUST extending the range of motion envelope by a tiny bit to take them out of the comfort spot for a few moments. At this level 2 or 3 degrees of movement in a joint is not going to spoil anything you're trying to teach them and it's not a drill that needs to be done ad-infinitum. It's mental exercise that needs a minor input from the body. You're over reading this as some sort of technique modification. It's not.
As for the young lad, what did you want me to say? That he's an unbalanced, not particularly graceful skier, who seems to be doing a reasonably good job in an ugly way? There's not a awful lot there I'd like to emulate. Not because I certainly cannot ski that quickly but because he's using his youth, and agility to muscle through. The likes of myself and Pam don't have that, we have to learn to be skilled and technique sensitive because we do not have the child's physical attributes. Using him to illustrate here is not apropos, you must have better examples to show.
I really take it on board that I have to develop a much simpler, probably terse (in my terms) instructor face. That in itself is an acquired skill that may well be the hardest one for me strike that, it'll be an absolute booger 
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