 Poster: A snowHead
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| little tiger wrote: |
Megamum - losing the traverse is part of it but you really need to learn how to control your turn shape and vary it at will to give you the control you seek.
Check the turn shape and skid angle links I posted in the other thread for you. (From the glossary) This will give you the control without the need to shove the skis around or shove on them. |
little tiger is right. It's not just the traverse issue, that's of secondary importance. The big pivot, that's the most important thing you need to work on. Focus on getting rid of that first. The pivot is the origin of the Z shape of your turns. That should be rob@rar's assignment. You won't feel the highly enjoyable smooth and effortless flow sensation that skiing can provide until the pivot goes away. Pivot free skiing is playing with gravity. Pivot laden skiing is attempting to avoid it via tons of unnecessarily wasted energy and movement. Learn the simplicity and joys of making gravity your playmate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Learn the simplicity and joys of making gravity your playmate.
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as easiski would say "Dare to dive!". 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
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Learn the simplicity and joys of making gravity your playmate.
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as easiski would say "Dare to dive!". |
Yep Fastman's rollercoaster turns are brilliant - my kids loved them when we skied with him - and they skied much faster than normal but did not notice it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
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Learn the simplicity and joys of making gravity your playmate.
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as easiski would say "Dare to dive!". |
Yep Fastman's rollercoaster turns are brilliant - my kids loved them when we skied with him - and they skied much faster than normal but did not notice it. |
Yeah, that was fun. Here were kids who only days before were scared when wedging on flat greens, suddenly ripping mega long radius turns on a steep blue, and giggling with glee all the way through.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Maybe herein lies the problem - I don't like rollercoasters!! 
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 1-03-12 21:57; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, I didn't either. For years and years I refused to go on any amusement ride that left the ground, but one day decided to give it a go and now I love them even if the first three or four times were nerve racking and more frightening than fun. I learned to appreciate them. I think there's a lot about skiing that is the same - it's daunting and not enjoyable to ski what you consider to be steep terrain at first, but you learn to appreciate it and then to love it. All it takes is the desire to give it a go and stick with it. Riding rollercoasters could be seen as good ski training for you...
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It's all in the progression Megamum,. Start with little rollercoasters, it will give you a taste that leaves you longing for bigger ones! It works on snow, and with turn shape, just as it does in the amusement park. The "weee" effect becomes addictive.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| It's all in the progression Megamum,. Start with little rollercoasters, it will give you a taste that leave you longing for bigger ones! It works on snow, and with turn shape, just as it does in the amusement park. The "weee" effect becomes addictive. |
he means like this
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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or perhaps
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it's daunting and not enjoyable to ski what you consider to be steep terrain at first
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I'm sure this is exactly what stopped me from ever starting to ski properly to begin with. Maybe when I went to that first EoSB I was so much into and enjoying the fact that I was on holiday my myself for the first time in 20+ years that the enjoyment got over that daunting bit and started to get me down things. Once I had that cracked I was then more receptive to lessons because I could actually do what I was asked to because the daunting bit wasn't taking over any more and I think I started to make progress. At the moment sometimes I ski because it is fun - a blue on good snow with no-one around that I can easily ski. However, it is not yet all fun - now I think I've got my head around the fear/daunting side of things a bit steeper, but I still ski for the satisfaction in thinking 'I got down that' it's at the stage of proving to myself that I can do it, that I can start to master this 'mind over matter' thing. I love being up in the snowy mountains, it is good to be outdoors and to have enough skills these days to go with others around a mountain and be sociable, but it's still at the stage of 'mastering something new' and the application of sheer determination when what I would like it to be is 'fun, fun, fun'. Mind you as a holiday is still does me the world of good, as its like riding a horse, when I'm riding the skis it takes every bit of concentration - I switch off thinking about and worrying about anything else, my whole being is on making the skis work - exactly the same as the full concentration that goes into controlling a horse. I still need to get to this bit:
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you learn to appreciate it and then to love it
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At the moment I guess what I get from skiing is the satisfaction from accomplishing something that I couldn't have done before (and that is enough to make me stick at it), but I am still waiting for the real 'fun' to kick in. Maybe I'm not making sense - but the bit about the rollercoaster makes total sense - though don't tell the kids that mum wants to ride a rollercoaster - please, I'd sooner be allowed to make my own decision without coersion from my kids
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... it's still at the stage of 'mastering something new' and the application of sheer determination when what I would like it to be is 'fun, fun, fun'. |
Get used to that feeling because it isn't going away. I have that exact same feeling some of the time. It's one of the things that makes skiing brilliant: many achievable challenges. The day that you have "mastered" skiing so there are no more challenges left is the day you should think about taking up another hobby...
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| Megamum wrote: |
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it's daunting and not enjoyable to ski what you consider to be steep terrain at first
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I'm sure this is exactly what stopped me from ever starting to ski properly to begin with. Maybe when I went to that first EoSB I was so much into and enjoying the fact that I was on holiday my myself for the first time in 20+ years that the enjoyment got over that daunting bit and started to get me down things. Once I had that cracked I was then more receptive to lessons because I could actually do what I was asked to because the daunting bit wasn't taking over any more and I think I started to make progress. At the moment sometimes I ski because it is fun - a blue on good snow with no-one around that I can easily ski. However, it is not yet all fun - now I think I've got my head around the fear/daunting side of things a bit steeper, but I still ski for the satisfaction in thinking 'I got down that' it's at the stage of proving to myself that I can do it, that I can start to master this 'mind over matter' thing. I love being up in the snowy mountains, it is good to be outdoors and to have enough skills these days to go with others around a mountain and be sociable, but it's still at the stage of 'mastering something new' and the application of sheer determination when what I would like it to be is 'fun, fun, fun'. Mind you as a holiday is still does me the world of good, as its like riding a horse, when I'm riding the skis it takes every bit of concentration - I switch off thinking about and worrying about anything else, my whole being is on making the skis work - exactly the same as the full concentration that goes into controlling a horse. I still need to get to this bit:
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you learn to appreciate it and then to love it
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At the moment I guess what I get from skiing is the satisfaction from accomplishing something that I couldn't have done before (and that is enough to make me stick at it), but I am still waiting for the real 'fun' to kick in. Maybe I'm not making sense - but the bit about the rollercoaster makes total sense - though don't tell the kids that mum wants to ride a rollercoaster - please, I'd sooner be allowed to make my own decision without coersion from my kids |
Megamum, those feelings about skiing are so familiar to me. I hear them all the time, I see them in the skiing of so many people, and they move me so strongly to want to help. It's why I do what I do. I know the road to a better place, and I know how easy it is to navigate. I love when I see and hear the expressions of joy when people discover it. When they learn how take control of their line and speed on any steepness of slope. Just last month a student told me upon learning to use skid angle and turn shape as a speed management tools, "This has been a watershed moment bigger than any other during all my time in the sport." Hang in there, girl, head towards the light. Once you learn these things the fun you have on skis will multiply in degrees you're not currently even imagining. And it's not that hard, you can do it, even within the short amount of time you get to be on skis.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Fri 2-03-12 10:13; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Skid angle and turn shape here I come then 
What I was still wondering is do all people learning the sport go through the point that I am at, i.e. these poor shaped turns and the traverses between them?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Megamum wrote: |
| What I was still wondering is do all people learning the sport go through the point that I am at, i.e. these poor shaped turns and the traverses between them? |
Often, but not always. Decent instruction should help new skiers avoid the problem. Part of the challenge is getting skiers to come off their ski edges to allow them to more skilfully steer their ski around the turn. Once they understand that turn shape is the key to speed control rather than quickly twisting their skis through the fall line you then have more opportunity to develop good body movements and to explore the different ways we can steer our skis.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
Skid angle and turn shape here I come then
What I was still wondering is do all people learning the sport go through the point that I am at, i.e. these poor shaped turns and the traverses between them? |
It depends on how they've learned. If they've learned on their own, with no professional instruction, then pivoting is commonly the go-to method they self discover for wrenching the skis around a turn, and being able to escape the "scary" falline. If a new skier is fortunate enough to have quality instruction right from the beginning, and plenty of it, then they'll likely learn good turn shape right from day one, starting in the wedge, and carrying on through to parallel turns.
I'll will tell you this, though; pivoted Z turns make up the majority of what I see in the skiers I observe from the lift. My work is far from done. I feel like the Johnny Appleseed of turn shape and skid angle, with miles to go before I sleep.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pivoted Z turns make up the majority of what I see in the skiers I observe from the lift.
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I've found it quite helpful to observe, from a chairlift, the shapes of turn, ankle bend, etc etc and try to analyse what's going right and what's going wrong. It's also quite interesting to watch an instructor with a class, doing beautiful S-shaped turns, and see what the pupils are doing. Kids often seem to follow more accurately than grownups (at least, the first half dozen do). Maybe because they watch the instructor whereas adults are sometimes looking fixedly at the front of their skis. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, I have had some decent successes when following instructors, I seem to go faster and have often surprised myself by managing to stay in their lines and quite close. For some reason I am not so good when doing it myself!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
For some reason I am not so good when doing it myself!
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Hardly surprising! I have had some "decent successes" following instructors who are picking a nice line for me, at the "right" speed, through a mogul field. Left to myself...... different story.
Maybe you could persuade somebody to field the kids for you one time, for you to go on a "ski clinic"? There are some aimed specifically at women, which is helpful if you are a bit bothered about speed - men can sometimes be unnecessarily and unhelpfully competitive in these situations.
Here's one example: http://www.inspiredtoski.com/courses/womensskicourses
Treat yourself to a few days when you have nobody else to think about, and can put yourself first.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, think I have success with it because I am concentrating on someone else (the instructor) and not on myself!
I do often look at short trips for just me with very green eyes, but the 'fielding' the kids bit is very difficult to organise due to my current home situation - it's hard enough to get the time for a snowdome day! In a two parent relationship you can go away and leave the OH in charge, single parents don't have this option and I also have a whole load of animals and kids now old enough to need ferrying around at all times of the week to work around as well.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, I think most people have that feeling following an instructor. For me it's a matter of trust: I trust them to ski at a fast but manageable pace (for me) better than I trust myself to pick that optimum.
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For me it's a matter of trust
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Yes, that's the reason the mogul exercises work so well with an instructor who is picking out a route, and going at a speed, which he knows I can manage, so I can switch brain off. Looking ahead and deciding where to turn next is my undoing - hence ending up traversing the moguls.
I think another big problem for many skiers - certainly for me - is crowded slopes. I detest crowded slopes and now that I am lucky enough to be able to avoid them (and life queues) skiing a bit faster is not a problem.
But I have spent many, many, hours in very good quality lessons (including with Fastman and easkiski) and hours practising drills on my own. It's much easier when you are retired and have plenty of time to go skiing. When I was still working, and generally only having one week ski holiday a year, I almost never did a week without lessons. One of the best investments was 3 days clinic with BASS in Les Gets. On our last holiday prior to buying (on a whim) our apartment, I did a full week with New Gen in Courchevel. For me, learning to ski took a long time and a lot of tuition.
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Is that the new term for NHS waiting lists?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman,
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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hence ending up traversing the moguls
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pam w, well at least we both have a method for getting down them these days if we find them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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OK, it's all change for us. I've got the printing press out to make some new crispy bits of paper with Euro on them and we are off again at Easter. So any cash that I would have spent on lessons is now being squandered on another week on the snow. So I now need to sort out some self help instead as this is budget trip and I doubt I'll afford a lesson.
Are there just one or two things that are easily explained on this thread that I can try doing while I am away to help that turn shape please?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Are there just one or two things that are easily explained on this thread that I can try doing while I am away to help that turn shape please? |
Make your turns as skiddy as you can manage, but be patient when you are turning. Don't rush the skis, just allow them to turn you at a steady rate until you have completed the turn, then immediately plant your pole and begin the next turn.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, try and get some more video if you can. You can recognise a very tight turn and a bit of a traverse across the slope, so if you see yourself doing that on video you'll know to stop doing it. Once you get used to steering your turns by skidding your skis smoothly all the way around the turn you can then play around with turn size. Imagine you are skiing down corridors of different widths, sometimes a narrow corridor which requires a tight (but smooth) turn, other times a really wide corridor which requires a large (but smooth) turn.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, I'll try doing that - it wasn't until I saw that footage that I posted that I realised that all was not quite as right as I had hoped. The kids have got quite into recording video footage and I don't think I will have any problems pursuading them to do more of mum's skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
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| a very tight turn and a bit of a traverse across the slope |
is exactly what she is doing, almost forcing the ski's around.
The instructor in Flachau was , I believe, attempting to slow down that proccess and intruduce more of a slower turn or slide rather than aggressive edging.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, good advice from rob@rar. Here's another strategy to try, to help with shedding the rushed pivot turn. The moment you begin a new turn start counting, "one snowheads, two snowheads, three snowheads, etc.". Stop counting the moment your skis are point straight downhill. The higher the number you reach, the better. It means your turn shape is getting better, and your pivot is disappearing. When you can count to 3 your pivot will be gone. If you want to try to count even higher, that's cool too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
The moment you begin a new turn start counting, "one snowheads, two snowheads, three snowheads, etc.". Stop counting the moment your skis are point straight downhill.
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First shalt thou find thine edge, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then shalt thou attain the Holy Fall Line, and thou shalt be righteous in My sight.
With apologies to the Monty Python team.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FastMan, three snowheads!! Wow!! I know for a fact that I probably don't get to one! I've found some footage on my sons video camera I'll try to cut it out from the non skiing and views of the floor that it is in the middle of. It is on a less steep surface and I think the turn shape an rhythmn is better (though still no pole plants!) - I'll snip it out when the kids are off the computer that its on and post it to vimeo to see if you all agree.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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One, two, five - whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
Where's Brother Maynard when you need him?
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This is some footage that Minimum_2 took on his SH raffle prize being used in a chest holster. I think I probably make a better job of the turns when the slope isn't as steep, but I guess someone will have to let me know for certain http://vimeo.com/38248717
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Megamum, just a few comments, starting with the positive. Good control of speed and line so you're travelling down the piste at a pace you're comfortable with, making fairly symmetrical turns.
Some points for you to think about:
There's not much flexion and extension ('up' and 'down') movements happening. You have a well balanced stance, but it's mostly static. I think you should focus on building some flex and extension movements in to your skiing as this is a fundamental skill which underpins all our skiing. The more you can make it an instinctive, automatic movement pattern the more you will be able to progress to more challenging slopes and snow conditions.
Your turn shape is, as we've discussed above, quite z-shaped, zigzags. In this clip you are pivoting your skis quickly by pushing your heels out, the settling on to the skis and heading off in a bit of a straight line until you're ready to pivot your skis in the opposite direction to make the next turn. I would much rather see a more even rate of turning your ski rather than quickly pushing your heels out (accompanied by more flex and extension movement).
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 10-03-12 10:37; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| FraserP wrote: |
| ... aggressive edging. |
That's a good point that I should have raised earlier. I occasionally teach clients who have a misconception about edging their skis. They believe that to have lots of control you must get the skis on to their edges as much as possible, as you describe: 'aggressive edging'. The steeper it gets, the more they want to edge, sometimes with legs that are so stiff they are locked almost straight. But a ski which is on a hard edge wants to be a fast ski. There is very little resistance to it gliding along the snow. So if control is about keeping your speed low the last thing you want to do is keep your skis on a hard or aggressive edge. Much better to smoothly skid your skis all the way around the turn as a skidded or scrapped ski is much slower than an edged ski.
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Megamum, Where and when are you going skiing at Easter??? Maybe a quantified snowhead could give you a pointer or two???
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