 Poster: A snowHead
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FastMan, I bow in deference to your graphics. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| Being "a bit geeky" for a moment, I'd argue that there should never be a build up in force as you should be aiming to maintain constant pressure through the snow at all times. |
Where's the fun in that? 
I love allowing the force to build up at the end of the turn, and then releasing it with a pop. Not for every turn, but occasionally. It's an expression of joy!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| FastMan, surely a short arc turn can be "finished"? There's no absolute answer to finishing a turn that you can measure in degrees. For me it;s whether you have finished the process of one turn and use that to link seamlessly in to the next turn. If you haven't adequately controlled your speed or if you haven't adequately completed your movements your turn isn't finished, even if you're pointing back up the hill. |
rob@rar, there are two answers here.
In response to the OP, I'd stick with keeping turning.
Your point is what I was working on with Mo. Specifically that I wasn't quite stacked at transition - so was pissing away an opportunity for pressure control in the front third of the turn because i was too busy getting my CoM forwards.
You could argue that it's from stacked to stacked at whatever entry / exit speed you desire.
But, as I say, for the purposes of the OP...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DB wrote: |
| Yes staying in the turn = finishing the turn but if you are not in a controlled gradual arch (carving or skarving) that's not always possible. It's often said to learners "just finish your turns" and so they try that and fall over. Whereas I think "make the turn more gradual and stay with it to kill speed" would make them fall over a lot less. |
If you can't get a learner / intermediate to fall over then where's the fun in life? Huh?
I've read what was only around 50 pages of that Epic Ski thread.
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BTW Fastman, do you have a special Fastman filter running or something.
That felt a bit like Commissioner Gordon calling for Batman.
And "poof", he appears!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| ... (the traverse shorter) ... |
Why would you want to make any traverse? Kills the flow, makes the start of each turn difficult and lifeless. |
It gets me over to Apres ski hut without losing altitude.
Seriously, yes the object of the exercise would be to make the traverse as short as an edge change.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FlyingStantoni, I think there's a danger in saying categorically that you haven't finished the turn until you are at least 45 degree beyond the fall line, or 60 degrees or whatever. It's not difficult to say "finish doing all the things we usually do at the end of a turn, such as controlling our speed, making sure we are flexed as we want to be, standing centred on our skis, getting ready to make start the next turn, etc". You can work on each of those things separately and get the client to decide themselves whether they have controlled their speed, or a properly flexed, etc.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| FastMan, surely a short arc turn can be "finished"? There's no absolute answer to finishing a turn that you can measure in degrees. For me it;s whether you have finished the process of one turn and use that to link seamlessly in to the next turn. If you haven't adequately controlled your speed or if you haven't adequately completed your movements your turn isn't finished, even if you're pointing back up the hill. |
I agree completely, rob@rar, and it's why I don't use or care for the expression "complete your turns". I can make 30 degree turns, and consider them completed, if it's what I intended to do. If I want to control my speed more what I actually do is increase the degree of turn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
But you should only start a new turn when you've slowed down to the speed you started the turn at.
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Flying Stantoni - I agree with most of what you have posted - good stuff on the whole.
The above quote I can agree with if we are trying to control our speed to a fairly constant rate of descentl downhill for each individual turn.
The problem becomes when I want to go faster I will be aiming to do each turn faster than the previous one...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| FWIW, Mo uses "steer under you more" for "you're not stacked at transition you numpty". Just so you know |
One of the many things he said to me, many times, in May!
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| FastMan, surely a short arc turn can be "finished"? There's no absolute answer to finishing a turn that you can measure in degrees. |
Exactly right! - that is why it is such a silly description and so confusing to students... Great jargon talk that instructors like to use because of course they all know what it means.
Fastman was describing what they usually want I believe.
Of course when I STOP turning one way and START turning the other, my turn is, by definition, FINISHED.
What most instructors I've skied with who use this term usually mean is please get those skis turned just a bit more across the hill(or uphill) before starting the next turn.
I could of course finish all movements waaaaay too fast... then camp in a downhill traverse... before starting the next turn... I'd still likely be asked to finish my turns... So I'd not hang on what movements need to be done so much... often not doing them is a result of feeling rushed due to lack of speed control I'd say...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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(Hello little tiger, not seen you around for while. Lovely to see you!  )
I agree with you.
I'm reading that the usual context that most people will have been told to "finish your turn" is in that former context.
Whilst we're on the subject of finessing the whole argument - it might be that, in deep snow, a 30 degree turn, or 20 degree turn, etc is what maintains your speed. And we've not even brought in flexion and extension in bumps yet.
I'll just go and get the popcorn and Pedantica would say...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
BTW Fastman, do you have a special Fastman filter running or something.
That felt a bit like Commissioner Gordon calling for Batman.
And "poof", he appears! |
No kidding! I didn't even realize I'd been talked about in the thread until after I posted. Weird.
My visits here have been very limited this season, as the time I'm spending in a Village far far away has been eating up much of my time. Good to see and chat with the old faces here again.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 12-01-12 23:40; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PsychoBabble, this is all your fault!
If you want the short summary then look at Fastman's first post!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan, that is very, very spooky.
Great to see you here too though.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| Exactly right! - that is why it is such a silly description and so confusing to students... Great jargon talk that instructors like to use because of course they all know what it means. |
I use the phrase, as shorthand, with clients that I have explained it to. If you are trying to give one sentence of feedback and the terminology is understood by both of you there's no problem with using it. Did get a shock last week when a guy I was teaching used the phrase to me ("you mean I should finish the turn more?") while I was explaining what I wanted him to do but before I'd used the phrase!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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but the reality is the turn IS finsihed when you stop turning... so it really is confusing... How can I finish a finished turn?
What it is IMO is short hand for "finish the turn more across the fall line" which is what is usually meant
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
(Hello little tiger, not seen you around for while. Lovely to see you! )
I agree with you.
I'm reading that the usual context that most people will have been told to "finish your turn" is in that former context.
Whilst we're on the subject of finessing the whole argument - it might be that, in deep snow, a 30 degree turn, or 20 degree turn, etc is what maintains your speed. And we've not even brought in flexion and extension in bumps yet.
I'll just go and get the popcorn and Pedantica would say... |
Hi Flying Stantoni
Been pretty busy building a small residence in a village elsewhere
Good to see you too
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| little tiger wrote: |
... so it really is confusing... How can I finish a finished turn?
What it is IMO is short hand for "finish the turn more across the fall line" which is what is usually meant |
The phrase I use is finish the turn more, and I initially explain what I mean. Then you can play around with different arc lengths so the client gets a feel for what those words mean in terms of speed control, making movements, etc.
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But I can ski the same arc length in different turns and finish more across(or up) the fall line in one than the other...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PsychoBabble wrote: |
| ...what does it mean? |
I can safely conclude after reading this thread that even a bunch of ski instructors don't know what it exactly really means either so don't worry about it too much.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| But I can ski the same arc length in different turns and finish more across(or up) the fall line in one than the other... |
Sorry, not sure what point you're making 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
| I can safely conclude after reading this thread that even a bunch of ski instructors don't know what it exactly really means either so don't worry about it too much. |
The whole point is that there is no fixed definition of what is required to finish your turn. Like so much else in skiing the answer is "it depends". If the OP had asked what does it mean to "finish your turn more" the answer would have been straightforward (the first sentence of FS's first answer, for example).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| FastMan, surely a short arc turn can be "finished"? There's no absolute answer to finishing a turn that you can measure in degrees. For me it;s whether you have finished the process of one turn and use that to link seamlessly in to the next turn. If you haven't adequately controlled your speed or if you haven't adequately completed your movements your turn isn't finished, even if you're pointing back up the hill. |
I agree completely, rob@rar, and it's why I don't use or care for the expression "complete your turns". I can make 30 degree turns, and consider them completed, if it's what I intended to do. If I want to control my speed more what I actually do is increase the degree of turn. |
Exactly what this guy is saying. 'Complete your turns' as an expression really does not make any sense to me.
Its all about the shape of the turn:
C - More speed control
( - Direct line
'Finishing the turn' or 'completing the turn' is when I have done the turn that I intended to do. If I am skiing a direct line my turns will NOT look like a C. If I a skiing a very steep slope my turn shape will NOT look like a (.
My understanding of the problem is that a lot of intermediate skiers only have a single turn style (with limited variety in technique) and consequently do not adapt turn shape to achieve what they want to out a turn(usually speed control).
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Hear, hear, Elston, excellent post.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Wags wrote: |
| In a lesson last month with a BASI Trainer, he asked us to describe how we started a turn. I suggested that I "flattened my skis" and he looked at me like I'd just suggested the most old school bull that he'd ever heard. |
Maybe I have old school skis 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I suspect Rupert was just confused by the concept of turning - not sure I'm ever seen him do it He's a great guy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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As a punter if an instructor said to me with no further information that I should complete my turns more I would understand that I needed to move more towards FastMan's, 90 degree diagram from perhaps the 60 degree one and perhaps even turn slightly up the mountain to help control my speed prior to starting the next turn. Turning up the mountain does help control the speed, but I also find that the closer to and beyond the 90 degree mark you go the more difficult it is to initiate the next turn - it is easier to flow one turn into another if you are not as far as the 90 degree mark prior to starting the next turn. I find on the occasions that I've managed to properly carve a turn there is a noticeable 'pop' or 'push' out of the turn as the edges bite in and a little push with legs against those edges seems to increase the accelaration if I get it right. If I get it 'right' too often I then pick up too much speed for me to be comfortable with and have to do something about it, but I have found the motion that hits the 'accelarator' in the turn.
I had huge success with short swingy turns last season - taught to me in order to find the useable snow at the edges of the somewhat scraped reds in Les Arcs which, at the time, I wasn't dealing well with previously, and to be able to make progress in just a bit more than a ski's length down the side of the piste (OK it might have been wider than I thought, but I felt as though I was getting it about right), what I assumed from that is that such turns would by definition be Z turns and virtually completed finished turns prior to the next one - I was told when learning these to almost stop and stand on the ski edge each time to give me the necessary control - it worked!!  I also practised these with ski poles across the back of my wrists to stop the upper body rotating - this also helped.
Sorry, to contribute just to say how these things feel to me, but I am amazed at how much I am now looking forwards to my ski trip and it makes me enthusiastic to think about the things I can now do - there used to be a time when I dreaded ski trips, but not now 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 13-01-12 15:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, that sounds like really positive progress. It's a big step forwards when you have a choice of turn shapes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Gadge, Rupert's a beautiful skier - as you would expect anyone who is a BASI demo team member to be.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Gadge wrote: |
He's a great guy. |
I'd echo that - one of the best lessons I've had too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FWIW In my limited teaching experince, I do two things when trying to explain this to skier indoors, firstly explaining that "finishing" the turn will help them control their speed
Firstly I draw C's in the snow, ie
C
Ɔ
C
Ɔ
and I also tell them to ski towards one wall, then don't start the next turn until they are skiing towards the opposite wall
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| Gadge, Rupert's a beautiful skier - as you would expect anyone who is a BASI demo team member to be. |
Just to clarify - my comment was in total agreement with yours - it was a tongue in cheek comment as he doesn't hang about.
I think one of my skiing problems is I've been fortunate enough to have had lessons with Rupert and other BASI trainers - I forgot how to ski 'cos I'm busy enjoying watching them ski!
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Gadge.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wow! Who would have thought such an innocent question would generate all this?  Actually I wondered if this phrase is the new "bend ze knees"? Very interesting what it has achieved is make me think a bit more about speed control by shape of turn. I still love that feeling where the pressure builds and whips you into the next turn though!
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FAQ
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