 Poster: A snowHead
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The Courmayeur itineraries are more remote than the heavilly skied Verbier itineraries like Chasseur, Gentiane or the main Mt Gele routes and suspect cheburator, comments on difference between Swiss and Italian approach to securing these routes are accurate. I doubt the Courmayeur side itineraries are blasted and pretty sure Hellbronner is not (which also has the added risk factor of having some large crevasses on it). Also pretty sure there are no markers on the Hellbroner. It's been sunny this week so these routes should have been well skied but there will still be risks so check local advice and make sure you know what you are letting yourself in for before going eg Hellbronner gets the sun so on the lower section there is the risk of wet snow slides on warm afternoons - avi gear not much use if you get caught in one of these!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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cheburator, apologies if I misinterpreted your post.
What's the logic of showing "off piste" routes on a "piste" map 
As I said to me if it's unmarked on the ground it's off piste.
Personally I think it is a bad idea for ski areas to show off piste routes on their ski maps.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I talked to a guide at St Anton who told me that they changed most of the best blacks to itineraries some years ago so they could keep them open most of the time. In the modern litigenous (sp?) situation and with the modern expectation that pistes will now be groomed and not have ice and rocks on them, they had to keep many of them closed much of the time, so chose to change their designation to itineraries but they are still treated like the idea of a piste a few decades ago.
The tendency now to talk about "pisting" a route when you mean grooming is adding to the confusion of this thread. Some pistes aren't groomed. When I was young none were.
I had always assumed that, as at Verbier, all itineraries were checked for avalanche safety and closed if unsafe. After all, putting a route on a piste map and marking it on the ground surely puts a responsibility on the resort.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When I visited in the middle of heavy snowfall last season, the St Anton itineraries opened and closed with some regularity. In most cases snow cover was good, so I can only imagine the closures were due to avalanche risk. This suggests the itineraries were avalanche controlled.
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In Tignes back in March I went/struggled down Silene, which is a black itinerary (and it was horrific haha), but it had piste markers both sides. It was completely unpisted though and way beyond my talents.
I have a photo somewhere.
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| Layne wrote: |
| What's the logic of showing "off piste" routes on a "piste" map |
Italians and logic are not best of buddies. I'm sure the German piste maps are much more in order!
| snowball wrote: |
| After all, putting a route on a piste map and marking it on the ground surely puts a responsibility on the resort. |
Marking on the ground maybe, but these routes on the Italian map are not marked on the ground and on the piste map they are clearly flagged as "off piste". No other map makers are penalised for marking potential routes across open ground in this way. A producer topo map showing a path up Mont Blanc would bear no responsibility for someone who tried to climb it unprepared, why should it be different for a ski map.
To me it seems the Italians have got this fairly clear but it is the other resorts creating itineraries/naturides in order to cash in on the demand for back country skiing while avoiding the cost of maintaining a route to the standards demanded by public liability burdens that have created the confusion. What would have once just been a black piste that was never groomed, would have been seen as poorly maintained route by piste skiers. Now the same piste is marketed as an itinerary/naturide, but in reality is exactly the same, it is falsely seen as a safe "off piste" option.
If you read the key on the piste maps rather than just expecting "itinerary" and "piste" to have internationally standard meanings then it all becomes clear.
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| Flet©h wrote: |
A producer topo map showing a path up Mont Blanc would bear no responsibility for someone who tried to climb it unprepared, why should it be different for a ski map.
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Other than because a piste map is issued by the ski area and is specifically designed to show skiable areas? It's not like a topo map at all is it, that analogy doesn't really work.
In La Plagne there used to be 2 blacks coming down from the glacier that have now been replaced by slightly different coloured whiteness on the map for some reason, I noticed last season. Not 100% sure why. Still shown on older maps but the official one on the LP website doesn't have them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Piccadilly, Silene is a piste, not an itinerary.
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Is it? It's dotted on the map. Well, it's marked with kind of asterisks, so I thought it was more of an itinerary, but as it's a named run you're probably right. That explains the piste markers. It's a b*gger anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think this has already been covered, more or less, above by several people so sorry for repeating stuff.
In France an itinerary route has no legal status. There are pistes and there is the rest. Legally the resort is only able to avalanche control pistes and for roads and habitation. This is with itinerary, like the Courchevel couloirs have either become official pistes of vanished from the piste map. I guess that is what happened with the la Plagne routes too.
The risk will be higher on an itinerary as they are not groomed. They are often just a few signposts so the chance of getting lost, or hurting yourself due to the snow conditions, is higher. Still if the route is actually open I doubt the avalanche risk is that high.
Be careful "just off piste" skiing if the risk is 3 or more, lots of accidents just off the pistes in these conditions.[/quote]
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've skied most of the Verbier itinerary routes on my own and without kit. Never found any terrain or conditions which I judged to be dangerous. However, make your own judgement, if there has been heavy recent snowfall or a change in temps then they may still have risks.
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| Piccadilly wrote: |
In Tignes back in March I went/struggled down Silene, which is a black itinerary (and it was horrific haha), but it had piste markers both sides. It was completely unpisted though and way beyond my talents.
I have a photo somewhere. |
Find the photo chum - thought about doing the same in the same month and thought i made a great decision against
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You know it makes sense.
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This is good info & a good thread. I'm heading to St. Anton in March & was wondering about the itineraries. We'll be skiing with a guide for a couple of days, and I was wondering whether the guides use the itineraries or if they do true 'off-piste.' I guess they'll probably do a bit of both depending on conditions
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| sev112 wrote: |
Find the photo chum - thought about doing the same in the same month and thought i made a great decision against |
I wish I'd done the same. It's steep, very long and has massive moguls from top to bottom.
Well, unless you like that sort of thing. Here's a photo of a bit of it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
| Flet©h wrote: |
A producer topo map showing a path up Mont Blanc would bear no responsibility for someone who tried to climb it unprepared, why should it be different for a ski map.
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Other than because a piste map is issued by the ski area and is specifically designed to show skiable areas? It's not like a topo map at all is it, that analogy doesn't really work.
In La Plagne there used to be 2 blacks coming down from the glacier that have now been replaced by slightly different coloured whiteness on the map for some reason, I noticed last season. Not 100% sure why. Still shown on older maps but the official one on the LP website doesn't have them. |
Why isn't it like a topo map? Specifically the courmayer map in clearly indicates the route is off piste. Its a route that is skiable shown on a map. There is no promise that it is safe to ski as there is with a piste, no promise you won't get swallowed up into a crevasse but if you know what you are doing it can be skied.
The 2 white lines on the LP map indicate it may be a skiable route but it certainly isn't a piste. Would you expect the map producer to be liable if you tried to ski it and something happened?
Good luck trying that one in court!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Piccadilly wrote: |
| sev112 wrote: |
Find the photo chum - thought about doing the same in the same month and thought i made a great decision against |
I wish I'd done the same. It's steep, very long and has massive moguls from top to bottom.
Well, unless you like that sort of thing. Here's a photo of a bit of it.
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I took my daughter down there by mistake when she was 11. I asked if she was ok having a go, after a long look she turned to me and said "Yes, as long as I don't have to ski it all parallel!"
We turned it into a "how to ski bumps" class and she did really well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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farlep99, the guides will take you on proper off-piste. There is loads of it. The itineraries get skied out very quickly if they are open and if closed the guides will not ski them either.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In Austria a Ski Route is not pisted nor patrolled, however it is made safe for avalanches. It could be quite easy to stray away from the "safe route" indicated by poles so awarness is required. You will still find other Alpine dangers (rocks, terrain variations etc).
PSG
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowball wrote: |
| if closed the guides will not ski them either. |
This doesn't appear to be the case in Verbier
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
I took my daughter down there by mistake when she was 11. I asked if she was ok having a go, after a long look she turned to me and said "Yes, as long as I don't have to ski it all parallel!"
We turned it into a "how to ski bumps" class and she did really well. |
Best "My 11-year-old daughter is a better skier than you" post ever! 
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Professional instructors working in the mountain environment will often be called upon to help assist and deal with situations where people have got themselves in trouble / or a natural occurrence had taken place (avalanche). They are likely to be the first responders in may cases (before the rescue team arrives). It is very likely that an instructor, with a group under his control may witness an accident and have an obligation to assist (providing it does not endanger his/her group). It is for this reason it is likely that some instructors carry avi gear when the group situation appears not to need it (back to the St Anton ski school example). We know that time is critical in saving lives following an avalanche.
This instructor working on an avalanche safe ski route is more likely to come across that person who has drifted off the route and triggered an avalanche (than an instructor working on the nursery slope)
To lead a group on a ski route in Austria you would need to have passed the Landes qualification as a minimum. Therefore you have taken and passed an off piste and mountain safety module.
Its about professional good practice I believe.
PSG
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Have been with alpine elements twice- the last time being December 2011 to meribel. Chalet Martine was basic but was almost ski in ski out. Hosts are often young gap year students so don't expect Michelin star food. But echoing the earlier review " you get what you pay for" only paid 650 with lift pass had great week skiing. It is all down to who you share the chalet with. They are taking on board comments- they now have full cooked breakfast every day though they don't have wifi in their chalets. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| gilleski wrote: |
Professional instructors working in the mountain environment will often be called upon to help assist and deal with situations where people have got themselves in trouble / or a natural occurrence had taken place (avalanche). They are likely to be the first responders in may cases (before the rescue team arrives). It is very likely that an instructor, with a group under his control may witness an accident and have an obligation to assist (providing it does not endanger his/her group). It is for this reason it is likely that some instructors carry avi gear when the group situation appears not to need it (back to the St Anton ski school example). We know that time is critical in saving lives following an avalanche.
This instructor working on an avalanche safe ski route is more likely to come across that person who has drifted off the route and triggered an avalanche (than an instructor working on the nursery slope)
PSG |
So I guessed right. Thanks for confirming this.
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This one has been answered a lot already but for what it is worth I'd second those who say it depends on the country and resort. Frankly Tortin / Gentianes at Verbier and some of the itineries at St Anton, if you stick near the posts (and indeed grooming...), are really black runs. Maybe they say they don't control but I've seen the bombing etc. Courmeyeur is a different kettle of fish. Those routes particularly Hellbronner, but those off the top lift at the main resort too really are proper off piste. I'd say you should treat those the same as a route that isn't marked at all. How you're meant to know how to treat them at a resort you've not been to before I couldn't say...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
This one has been answered a lot already but for what it is worth I'd second those who say it depends on the country and resort.
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So... does anybody know what approach Zermatt takes? (I don't think anybody mentioned that one)
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FAQ
Then you get there and errrr.... Wher'a di signs, eh? Still some of the best skiing if you can find it...
of a beginner brit who crashed into my wife, while she was talking to me at the side of the piste at Brevent and ruptured her right x-ligament. Now then, do you ban him from the slopes or you make him take a test whether he can do parallel turns before they board the first lift on the way up? He has seen there are pistes there, so he went up...
