 Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, yep especially for time sensitive stuff like people tweeting snow conditions from a chairlift. Auto-tweeting news items might be possible with forum plug-in (and starting of new threads in the News sub-forum restricted to certain trusted users). No idea how much effort that would be, especially considering if sH is running a rather customised version of forum code.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PLEASE don't lure me into another internet site. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dr John wrote: |
flangesax, you get it.
Kel, you don't. You really really don't get it. Why does it matter to you if SH's has a presence on Twitter? If you don't want to use it then don't, no-ones forcing you. But why do you want to stop others from trying to promote SH's and get more traffic, therefore more revenue. Speak to any of the advertisers, who you so correctly pointed out contribute to the revenue, if they think more traffic is a good idea or a bad idea. I've a sneaky suspicion they'll want to see more traffic, and then they'll pay more.
Do you see it now? Do you? |
Actually I do get it, what I also get is that the forum has alot of interesting and informative post's from well informed people. My fear is that if the forum was promoted to the masses in this way then maybe these well informed post's would be diluted by people coming on here and posting rubbish and spammers selling little blue pills and fake Gucci handbags.
So you see it's not that I don't get, it's more I don't want it and maybe I might be in the minority here but it is my opinion so it is right for me. So please don't come back with your condescending tone and tell me I am wrong, because an opinion is a personal thing, just because it is different to yours does not make wrong.
"Get it", "Want it" two totally different things.
Now do you get it ? Do you?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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While my personal view tends to align with Kel's, I also really don't get what sHs has that is "twitter worthy". 99% of the stuff on there is inane narcissitic crap (& I include celebrities engaging with their public) with maybe 1% of worthwhile news feeds.
sH's news content is not a primary attraction of the site (I may be wrong but response to news threads seems to be very low compared to user generated content) so what is there really to tweet - the inane narcissistic crap that 99% of us (including myself) post? I'm as guilty as anyone of using a public forum for private conversations but it seems that's how twitter and facebook largely work anyway.
I think twitter is really good for specific functions - its great to tap into Bradley Wiggin's thoughts before a stage of the TDF or to look back wryly on Rio Ferdinand's pre match bravado as he's being put through the wringer by Messi. And the cause and effect of trending topics is fascinating. But as a portal for a site which is in itself a chatroom and not with anything official to say itself yet (subject to Phil Keith's meglomania) I'm not sure I get it.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 17-06-11 22:02; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It could be set to automatically tweet the latest new thread title... etc.. etc..
Then the option of the # tagging maybe for live reports which are then re-disributed onto the 'real' forum site.
It could generate a whole new chapter of SH's and would certainly encourage even more users.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Kel, I feel your pain, but it is the natural progression 
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I would start off simple with just manual tweets of the news items. Just to get a feel of what it can do.
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Kel, yes, I do get where you're coming from. You want to pull the ladder up Jack, we're all fine up here thanks. Sorry mate, but if you continue down that line then SH's will wither and die. All clubs/societies/wed communities need new blood in order to stay relevant, and FB/Twitter is, currently, the way to do this.
You don't like it, that's obvious and it's your choice to not like it. But as you so correctly pointed out, you don't have to play if you don't want to.
One last note, you acuse me of being condescending in the same post as you use the phrase "promoted to the masses"? Dear god......
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob,
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so what is there really to tweet
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This is the bit I'm not sure about either. Bashes, insurance policies, discounts, maybe? In other words the commercial elements of what many snowHeads don't want, in any event, to see as primarily a commercial venture. I'm on the fence, really (as usual) though I do believe that most ventures which take a conscious decision not to change or expand, for however good a reason, risk withering and dying.
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Hurtle, start simple; tweet a link to the SH newsletter. That way people can easily link through to it without having to download it as an email. There could be a facility whereby one of the mods can post a link to relevant/interesting threads, thereby alerting twitter users to threads they might not otherwise have seen. None of this in any way threatens the core value of SH. I just wish the flat-earthers would stop with the knee jerk reactions against something they patently don't understand.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SnowHeads on facebook never really took off. I don't follow twitter and I don't know anyone else who does, apart from work purposes. It wouldn't bother me if snowHeads had tweets or twittered or whatever but I wouldn't follow it.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think that there may be relevence in post counts and joining dates here....
There are certainly 2 communities within SH's. Those that were there 'at the start' after 'the big split' that consider themselves 'real' snowheads... attending bashes and all these tyoes of thingies...etc.. etc...
Then there are those that have joined later and found the site through a search engine... these are the peeps that generaly are quite used to a commercial basis to a website. What is wrong with that?.. nothing is free and SH's costs money to run.
The site is getting a bit clunky and looks very outdated but it is lpopular and is developed within it's means.
Kel, please... what does
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Nowt against twitter or tweeters, it's just the consequences that it may bring
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actually mean?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Kel, I'm offering suggestions as to how SH might expand it's subscription base, and increase it's revenues, in order to secure it's future. You have, so far, derided such suggestions and suggested that SH is quite happy as it is, thank you very much. Seems an odd view to take, seeing as SH only came about due to the short-sighted inclusive decisions taken by another web site. If we don't learn from the lesson of history we are bound to repeat them.
flangesax, spot on. SH's needs a face-lift, and that will require money. Money that can only be raised by subscription revenue and advertising, both of which require more users and visitors. I fail to see how any of this can be considered a bad thing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dr John, as far as I can see, Kel has not suggested that snowHeads' subscription base or its revenues should not be increased, he has merely suggested, as has fatbob, that your suggested method of doing so may not be either the best way or to everyone's taste.
On balance, I see nothing wrong with giving it a whirl, if it's something that admin can do simply (and preferably without having to employ someone else to do it.)
Is there some reason you do not contribute to snowHead revenues yourself? It is notable that pretty much everyone else who has contributed to this debate does so.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| flangesax wrote: |
Kel, please... what does
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Nowt against twitter or tweeters, it's just the consequences that it may bring
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actually mean? |
What do I mean, well first what do I like about the forum. I like that on the whole it is a good place to come for un-biassed well informed information. I like the fact that there are some excellent services to be found on here from the likes of CEM and Spyderjon to name but a few, which without the forum I would not have found. I like the fact that most of the people on here are only here through one common interest, which is the love of winter sports, most of whom are regulars and are happy to pay towards the upkeep of the site. I love the fact that regular bashes are organized. Need I go on !!
Now the consequences that twitter and facebook etc might have on bringing this forum to the attention of a wider audience. This of course in turn would attract a higher revenue for advertising, but I also think the audience it would attract might actually detract from the experience the site offers, if that makes sense  .
Admin and his team of volunteers have done an excellent job of promoting the site to get it where it is today and whilst doing this they have also somehow managed to keep it a closely gaurded secret from the spammers . Now imagine if this forum got so big it started to attract the likes of TUI as a major sponsor, it would actually go against most of the values that the site stands for and then what would happen. Well let me have a guess, the likes of you and I who pay an annual donation would cancel the DD as we would lose interest.
So to summarize I like things as they are and if I was in the market for a fake Spyder jacket I could find one very easily on eBay without having them rammed down my throat on Snowheads, before the mods had chance to remove the offending articles. So there you have it, call me old fashioned if you must and DrJohn is correct I am very much in the "pull the ladder up jack" camp.
ADMIN you have not had much to say on the subject, care to add your twopenneth.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gilleski, hmm.. How come 31 are 'following' - but 19 only are 'followers'?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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he'll be following 31, but followed by 19
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kel, When the user base increases so should the number of moderators.... so if you are happy with the level of moderation to amount of users; and it is working, then it doesn't matter how many users join your secret ski club website as the ration of mods has also grown.
Most spam that is bot generated will be dealt with already. Human made spam can still be controlled using ip lookups and other techy stuff... (recognition of duplicated posts, not being able to start a new thread for a wee bit/ until reached a certain post count plus the magic stuff) so I think that is a terrible argument and a perfect example of a cliquey SH.
SH's could easily attract major tour ops... why is this 'against most of the values that the site stands for' and where are these 'values'... can I find a list of SH's values on this site? At present there are banner adverts from holiday providers (makes sense really as most people go on a winter holiday).
Also why would TUI be a 'sponsor' - maybe run an advertising campaign but not sponsorship.
So, the site gets busier, more users, more mods, more advertisers, more revenue, more people attending bashes (although I am sure they will be directed to the special SH's value page before being allowed to buy a place)... so there are less subscriptions because people don't think that the site needs them... well.... it probably wouldn't!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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andyph, maybe more a feed from snowHeads to other all who wish to follow? A bit like @Easiski ? Still getting the feel of Twitter so not sure what is really possible - do you use it a lot?
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All the pro twitterers out there - how do you see it exactly driving vast quantities of traffic to sHs? Do the twitterati and faceachers refuse to use google these days because it isn't peer recommended so have no ability to find sHs?
The "pull the ladder up" accusation is pretty insulting to most people who play any sort of active role but every winter there is a flood of idiots who think this is a great place to pimp their business and don't really want to participate in a "community" so why should anyone really want to attract them?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| flangesax wrote: |
I think that there may be relevence in post counts and joining dates here....
There are certainly 2 communities within SH's. Those that were there 'at the start' after 'the big split' that consider themselves 'real' snowheads... attending bashes and all these tyoes of thingies...etc.. etc...
Then there are those that have joined later and found the site through a search engine... these are the peeps that generaly are quite used to a commercial basis to a website. |
That's a fairly odd distinction to draw and I quite disagree.
It's true to say that there are many people who have been here from the beginning and a few might feel they are more 'real' than more recent snowHeads but I would certainly hope that's a rare attitude.
Every year people join snowHeads subsequently to become useful and interesting contributors, high posters and enthusiastic and recurrent bashers.
Meanwhile, around half of the highest posters have never been on a bash.
Some regular bash attendees post regularly, some don't: some used to but still bash, some never did.
You yourself joined 2 1/2 years after snowHeads began - are you old guard or new guard - or are you simply the 'reference' before which all snowHeads are real and after which they are all unreal? 
To take a couple of examples for comparison; simply based upon similar post counts to yourself:
mountain mad has made a mere 25 more posts than you and came on her first bash last year. She joined snowHeads on day 4.
harrisontherabbit has made just 14 posts less than you but didn't join snowHeads until about 18 months ago. He has however been on 4 and a bit bashes since!
So who, out of the 3 of you is in which of the 2 communities you defined?
mountain mad must be most real having joined on day 4.
But surely harrisontherabbit is most real having been on the most bashes.
But hold on! What's this I see? Apres posts:
harrisontherabbit = 84.59%
mountain mad = 44.62%
flangesax = 3.31%
So are you the most real snowHead because so much more of your conversation is relevant to snow?
People have, fortunately, been finding us via Google from just a few weeks after we started and I recall, as much as 2 years later, someone joining up who had been 'lost' from the pre-ancestral-snowHeads-time and declaring their joy at finding everyone again. Are they real because they were there in the pasHt or unreal because they joined outside the 'window of reality'?
And one more thing: every now and then I meet someone who seems absolutely au fait with what's going on on the forum, the etiquette, the characters, the mood and yet has few or no posts though they clearly feel that they are a snowHead.
Clearly you are all equally real snowHeads (Except harrisontherabbit whose existence is entirely dependent upon him continuing to imagine himself.)
So, I suppose I'm saying, you're as 'real' or 'unreal' a snowHead as you feel in yourself or as you make yourself to others. Time on the site, post count and number of bashes are not only unrelated to that but clearly unrelated to each other.
Therefore I pronounce your 2 communities conjecture 'unsound' - sorry
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So should we Twitch?
Well, the electronic landscape is always moving.
And yes, it is important that snowHeads attracts new members, if only to replace those who decide to move their activity on elsewhere.
And I don't think those who enjoy our cosy little @lpine e-village need worry too much: it's not a question of whether snowHeads 'remains parochial' or 'goes mainstream': there's a limit to how many people this medium will suit anyway. We're not a generic network like Twitcher or Faecebook, we're a special interest group.
While a web site is obviously accessible to anyone anywhere, the community, as we all know, is very UK-centric.
There are roughly 2-2.5m people in the UK who 'have skied more than once' so that limits the scope of expansion for a start. Then consider that a great many skiers ring-fence the activity as a 'Winter Holiday', often organised entirely by a friend or another family member and so beyond 'looking forward' to it, hardly engage at all outside the week itself: snowHeads is not of much interest to them.
Suffice to say, we're hardly heading for 10's of millions.
Now to reassure those who may worry that we are floundering on the social rocks:
we had more new members join over this season than ever before.
Post count remains at similar levels to the past two years.
Visits are up 24% year on year. (+33% this quarter)
Visitors (UIP) up 32%. (+48% this quarter)
We have as many posts as all the other snow forums in the UK put together and during 6 weeks peak season, we picked up 2 new posts for every one elsewhere.
So we're doing OK.
But... that's not to say we should rest on our laurels.
So yes, I'm interested in the big social media networks but I've not yet seen an application that will clearly benefit snowHeads enough to warrant the development time. (and I always have an infeasibly long list of development tasks anyway)
I have seen other snow-forums set up faecebook 'like' buttons etc. and Twitcher connections but after brief consideration I chose to direct the effort into more traditional SEO instead (I know it's not 'either or' in principle but resources are limited) and we've seen snowHeads gain more traffic and registrations than all of them so their Twitch-links can't be that effective.
The question that those who claim to be in the know, claim we should be asking is "Will social start to outstrip search?"
By some measures it already is but it's also important to look at the relevance of those particular measures.
Clearly lots of people get something out of snowHeads that is worthwhile to them. Most of those found snowHeads via search engines when looking for snow related info. Will that happen more effectively via Twitcher? Will people start to rely on Twitcher in preference to Google?
True, people spend lots of time twitching and faecebooking but when they decide to 'sort out where to go in Jan', it's Google they hit... and find (or come back to) us!
I have trouble enough keeping up with answering my PM's! Do I need to be Twitching my thoughts 10 times a day too? 
"Talking on #snowHeads about whether it's worth twitching about what's going on on #snowHeads on Twitcher."
"We're reviving the #PSB anyone interested?"
"Oops sorry, don't bother, #PSB all sold out"
"Can't decide whether to eat lunch or answer a PM"
"OMG meetings all day. Hardly time to twitch lol"
How will this add value to the world?
What might be the more important level to focus on: although we did have a record number of new registrations this Winter, we've had over a million unique IP's access snowHeads in the past 12 months - it would be nice to see a few more of them register.
Still, I'm open to suggestions if there is functionality that you'd find really useful. A 'Twitch this' button next to each post maybe? So if you find something someone says interesting, you can share it yourself with the twitching masses. "Automatically Twitch my posts?" in your profile?
I don't know...
If stuff like this is really desired, I'll look into it.
btw. since they were brought up specifically, TUI are already interested in what goes on on snowHeads, keeping an eye on traffic about them and responding, rather effectively as far as I can see.
They've definitely handled themselves far better than some (not all) smaller operators.
They have declared interested in how they might be further involved and I'm happy to talk to them - the thing is, well, I don't exactly have a reputation for doing things in a particularly 'corporate friendly' manner and since we're entirely independent, I have the luxury to carry on doing it my way.
You all still have the choice between a 'free to use' ad-driven site and an ad-free subscription service. Some like one, some like the other - naturally.
Oh hold on, have we been running 7yrs 4 months and 14 days? Silly me, I almost forgot - that was exactly when I'd always planned to sell out totally and become a corporate stoolie and as luck would have it I've been offered 15,000 Ugandan Shillings for all your email addresses by a very nice sounding gentleman on the phone. Tweet ya from wherever I end up, suckers!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Couldnt get an explanation like that on twitter! "faecebooking"?? Social networking for the scatologically minded or just bulls.. - was that deliberate?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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admin, thanks for statistically demoloishing my weak argument!... maybe my labelling of the groups was a bit wry. However, there certainly are different views on advertising; and IMO those that fear it need to plug themselves in for a system update (along with those that completely disreguard social networking sites, probably because they don't use them).
Of course there is the re-tweeting which we haven't even touched yet....
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You know it makes sense.
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Colin B, I await the Google Earth picture.
| Wildsmith wrote: |
| Couldnt get an explanation like that on twitter! "faecebooking"?? Social networking for the scatologically minded or just bulls.. - was that deliberate? |
I think it was. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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so are we suggesting that, typically, posts by a contributor on snowHeads may then be also sent to Twitter without any further reference to the person that has posted ? where would the liability for the post lie ? Surely a snowHeads twitter account is about tweets from 'snowHeads the management' and not the contributors, in the same way Admin issues the newsletter emails - which is basically a tweet by other means (although he does quote people by nom de plume in such emails)
I think whatever happens it needs to be though out properly
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Poster: A snowHead
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Colin B, That twitch is useless without pictures 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 19-06-11 10:59; edited 5 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rayscoops, why don't you form a committee with DG and report back to us?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, why ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| so are we suggesting that, typically, posts by a contributor on snowHeads may then be also sent to Twitter without any further reference to the person that has posted ? |
Anyone could cut and paste any 140 characters of what you say into a Twitch now - or link to you or paraphrase you or misquote you - it's a media maelstrom isn't it? I guess, if U don't like it, there's always the option of a superinjunction
We could, for example, build into the mechanism, a notification to you if your post is Twitched forward by someone - something you wouldn't know now if they copy/pasted you.
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| where would the liability for the post lie ? |
The OP for the post on snowHeads the twitcherer for the post on Twitcher - seems pretty obvious.
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| Surely a snowHeads twitter account is about tweets from 'snowHeads the management' and not the contributors, |
Well that account might well do but the whole point is social media -
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| in the same way Admin issues the newsletter emails - which is basically a tweet by other means (although he does quote people by nom de plume in such emails) |
- any integration of Twitter and snowHeads must involve the community of snowHeads or it becomes just 'another place to pimp' which, let's face it, is a tediously old skool approach to it.
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I think whatever happens it needs to be though out properly |
Which is why we are talking about it.
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btw. I just twitched to @snowHeads about talking on #snowHeads about whether it's worth twitching, about what's going on on #snowHeads, on #Twitcher
Should I now update my status in view of this?
Hmm, it appears U can be up yer own one before U know it with this sort of thing and suddenly it's 'like' Faecebook all over.
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admin, if I understand twitter correctly it is the personal sound-bite views of individuals or corporate entities or whom ever and such tweets are open for all to see or all to subscribe to receive. In contrast posts on snowHeads are invariably discussions, made in context and in reply to previous posts and much longer that 140 words. Additionally such posts are by individuals (rather than the corporate identity that is snowHeads) who have decided not to express their opinons as 140 word sound-bites on Twitter, can appear in a section such as apres which is 'google insulated' and very quickly can fall of a page and disappear. The ability to cut and paste 140 characters from a webpage, or even re-type 140 characters from a book or publication, exists for any written word in any medium, but it does not necessarily make it right/legal/moral to do so and publish it in an abridged and potentially misleading manner, even though such thoughts may well be in the public domain.
I am not sure that it is obvious who would be responsible for the tweet, quoting what some one else has said is different to saying it oneself and such technique could be used in a vexatious manner. Should snowHeads have the intention of lifting posts and presenting them on twitter in an edited form I would hope that this would be announced in advance because in such circumstances I would remove myself from snowHeads and reinvent myself as a new anonymous member. Posting within a snowHeads vacuum is somewhat different to tweeting imv
Whilst this is being discussed I get the impression that the decision has already been made, and the issue is simply how to implement it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops,
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I get the impression that the decision has already been made, and the issue is simply how to implement it.
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Really? I don't get that impression at all. 
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As I don't tweet, I haven't been following this thread, but read the last couple above.
I have to say the concept of:
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Should snowHeads have the intention of lifting posts and presenting them on twitter in an edited form
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bothers me, and I think I would also take rayscoops, viewpoint on this:
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I would hope that this would be announced in advance because in such circumstances I would remove myself from snowHeads and reinvent myself as a new anonymous member
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FAQ
? Put a feed from 
