Should school ski trips be stopped and should teachers run them ?

A snowHead

One of my biggest gripes looking at the Skiing Europe thread is the amount of money being asked for the trips, don't get me wrong skiing especially in Switzerland at the current exchange rates is not cheap, but the Christian Group Oak Hall can manage to organise similar trips to Lauterbrunnen (rather than the further away Interlaken) from as little as £199 including coach travell to the resort and 3 meals a day, surely if they can manage this it is not beyond the capability of others to arrange similar trips for schools at a similar price structure

A snowHead

Piccadilly, Laughing

actually the lesson could well be walking through the village and considering the way of life of locals, how their customs have changed, how their village has changed, impact upon the environment etc. It does not need to be sitting at a desk !

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D G Orf, there are a lot of added value items included in a school package that Oak Hall do not cover, ski hire, lift pass, instruction etc., plus the staff 1 for every 7 kids say would need to be added. On the face of it though that company looks excellent value !!

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D G Orf, yes, some school trips do seem very expensive. some schools fly to the US! Probably the little darlings in some schools would demand their own en-suite bathrooms and turn their noses up at coach travel.

I don't know why people get their knickers in such a twist about this, though. If parents in school X and Y don't like the way school ski trips are organised, there's a simple solution. Either don't send the little darlings, or organise your own trip.

The school trip I went on in 1963 cost £40, the equivalent of about £630 in today's prices. A similar trip with PGL costs around £1000. Ours included travel to Newcastle from south Wales, ferry to Bergen, train to Geilo, all food, ski lessons, equipment, etc. Not luxury - we stayed in the Youth Hostel in Geilo - but a wonderful experience. I left one of my walking boots on the train and it went to Oslo. No doubt the teacher supervising the trip had a bit of work to do, but when we got on the train back to Bergen my boot was waiting for me. I would have had no chance whatsoever of going skiing without a school trip - that £40 was the sum total of money in my "Post Office Savings Bank" and exactly the sort of thing my grandparents had had in mind, when they contributed to that savings account, year after year. I bought my grandmother back a Norwegian cheese slicer with a bone handle. It is still in frequent use, 48 years later.

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rayscoops, having seen bunches of kids on the slopes around Wengen all with their Oak Hall rucksacks I'd say on the whole that Oak Hall know what they are doing with regards supervision, only couple of problems I've ever seen with the kids was once when one of their "Instructors" decided to stop an entire class right across a narrow section of piste when there was a much safer and wider spot just around the corner, the other time was when the kids wanted to eat their packed lunches inside a restaurant, it was a bitterly cold day and fortunately the restaurant didn't handle things badly, they said if the each of the kids bought either soup or chips (the two cheapest things on the menu) they would let them also eat their packed lunches at the table, I don't think the kids were too unhappy about that either Laughing

Now as for the Extra costs Oak Hall have their own instructors and charge just £58 for lessons likewise they have their own ski hire for which they charge £53 and a lift pass for an under 16 in for a week is a further £114 for 6 days or £126 for 7 days so all in for £425 which is a lot less that Skiing Europe was asking plus they are in Lauterbrunnen rather than Interlaken which means 20 mins less on the train each way every day!

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D G Orf, one of the cancelled school holidays had 11 members of staff to 77 children and I presume the staff would not be in the £425 per child that you quote above. How much would need to be added per school kid to average the price out and get a like for like comparison ?

After all it is free

rayscoops, I have no idea I'm afraid, however factoring in base costs I and letting all staff members hire equipment and take lessons we get 88 x £425 / 77 Which still comes in at £485 per kid, if staff members had no lessons and had their own ski kit that would reduce to £470

A ridiculous thread title in my opinion. I'm not sure what the point of it is.
It seems to be aimed at having a go at teachers who go on school skiing trips.

As someone who does go on school skiing trips (as a teacher) i find some of the points raised on this thread quite unbelieveable.

To suggest that it's a holiday for teachers is quite ridiculous, as anybody who as been on one should tell you.

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Wayne, Great post and excactly what i have been trying to say somewhere else for some time.

Only thing i would add is that anybody working in the public sector is forbiden to accept any kind of inducement , gift or freebie in the carrying out of their job, therefore effectively those who have had freebies have acted against their own employers regulations, is that why they are dressed up as "risk assesment trips" howver if they are so crucial surely the schools or LEA's should be funding them as to enusre an un biased outcome.

I was introduced to skiing at school and it has stayed with me ever since, so yes i think they are a great idea, i just think some of the ethics are wrong when it comes to so called "risk visits"

As i have said elswhere, i have a coleague who is taking 30 plus children to South Africa for a cricket tour, i think SA is somewhat more of a risk trip than a week on the slopes but they have not deemed it neccesary to send somebody out there for a week to check it out, is it because the TO did not offer the junket!

Apologies for spelling and grammar, i am sure Miss Brodie will be along soon to slag me off for it.

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quite the opposite Leedsunited.

I actually enjoy the trips.

Yes I get a weeks skiing (not all day everyday), and I give up my own personal holiday time with wife and kids to take 80 other kids on their holiday, but its not about me. The biggest enjoyment for me is to see the 80 or so kids whom we take have one of the best weeks of their lives. For many it's their only chance of experiencing a skiing holiday, as they would never be able afford to go with their families (school in a poor area).

You know it makes sense.

Just back from a great week's school ski trip to Italy. The children made great progress - and had a fantastic time. It was our smallest party yet - 22 people - but the best trip to date. We used a reputable company, and their terms provided me with a free place; I wouldn't pay for the privilege of taking resposibility for other people's children for a week. I paid for my wife and two children to come along.
We did not, and never have, had a 'free' inspection visit. This can and should be done by the TO. I organise trips to Wimbledon and Twickenham and they provide schools with detailed risk assessments prior to visits - the TO is much better placed to do this in ski resorts than I am.
I suspect the reason that some schools travel by coach for 22 hours is so that the number of 'free' places is greater. I also suspect that 'free' inspection weeks are an inducement to use an operator. I believe in complete transparency in my professional relationships and could not, in all honesty accept 'free' perks without declaring them. I also believe that they are factored into the price, and thus are paid for by children/their families.
I have seen at close hand how some schools run ski trips and did not like it - staff couldn't wait to get rid of the children and let reps take on their burden whilst they swanned around resorts 'on holiday'. I would certainly look very carefully at school ski trip organisers before allowing my children to go.
In the Italian resort I've just returned from 90% of the skiers on the slopes were British school children. Every school there worked hard to give the children a great week. School staff were a lovely, friendly bunch.
Should trips continue - of course!
Should teachers organise them - yes, but I think that the Senior Management Team of schools should have oversight of the organisation and that their should be a policy of transparency.
Perhaps BASI or similar could have a short course qualification in 'school party organiser' like a simpler Mountain Leader course.
This thread is the off-shoot of the skiing europe /Chris Reynard thread and sadly shows the profound impact that this man's activities are having for snowsports' lovers.

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daveyladboy, good post, thanks for your honesty !

A snowHead

daveyladboy, that's a very good set of comments you've posted there, it reminds me of a ski trip I took with my school 25 or so years ago, we had several teachers with us, probably half a dozen adults in all but of those I think we only saw 1 for most of the day, the rest we saw at dinner time and that was it, in the end teachers are only human and are thus subject to the usual things that effect them, some are excellent and go out of their way to help their students, whilst others seem to regard them as a mere inconvenience, an irritation to be tolerated as they earn their money.

I think I agree that risk assessments should be carried out by the TO, but then we rely on those TO's to be honest, unfortunately Skiing Europe/ Chris Reynard have shown us all how dishonest some companies can be, so I can also see that having at least one experienced staff member visit resorts and accommodation prior to a school trip, especially with activity type trips could be very useful, nice to know for instance that the hotel you will be staying in with 50 kids can cope with those numbers, isn't sited next door to a brothel, takes less than an hours journey each way to get to the activity area or whatever.

My memories of my school trip are mixed, I'd learnt to ski at an early age (3 years) and had skied every year till about 12 or 13 averaging 4 weeks per year, the school trip was when I was in sixth form so 17 years old, low parts were spending the first 2 or 3 days on the beginner slopes, no test was ever actually made to see who could ski and who couldn't we were all treated as being equally inexperienced, highlights were when halfway into the week we got an extra ski teacher who took those of us who were not beginners all over the mountain, one other highlight (I guess) was because we were in a French resort and all over 16, House wine was supplied to all our tables at dinner every evening by the carafe full with constant top ups, interestingly no student got drunk

A snowHead

D G Orf, I think that is a good point, when I suggest to a few teachers (or related) mates that they go on these ski trips in their own time in the main for the benefit of the kids they look at me as if I have 3 heads or have been on the loopy juice, one mate suggested his wife did the trips mainly to ski (shock) and that the kids were an unwelcome irritation. Obviously different teachers have different perspectives on this, but at last a teacher has actually put their hands up and said it as it is, good and bad.

I wonder if non skier teachers take these trips ? I suspect I would be pleasantly surprised and there would be quite a few.

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daveyladboy,

It is very refreshing to see some honesty.

D G Orf, Great post, i like you started with skiing on a school ski trip fantastic teachers but after being put in the care of the ski school we did not see them until dinner, but i loved evry minute of it

james75, I am pleased that you do enjoy the trips and i hope you continue to give your time it is very valuable, what does get my goat and it can be found elsewhere are comments such as "you should be grateful we take your brats of you for a week" Shocked

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Last week several schools had non-skiing members of staff along, we had a (non-skiing) member of staff who is also a fully qualified nurse - thankfully her skills were not required! In most school groups the staff skiied with the children's groups. Out of the other schools, a number of teenagers were injured and staff stayed with them in hospitals/hotels and did not ski. One school's headmaster was choppered off the mountain, with a torn meniscus and skiied no more. Not much of a 'holiday' for them...
This can also be the reason why some schools opt for coach travel - with higher free staff:pupil ratios - they simply need more staff to supervise parties of teenagers and need a mixture of male & female staff for mixed groups. It may also be a policy prescribed to staff, that for residential trips a ratio of 1 staff member:8 pupils is required - in June I'm taking 31 children to Barcelona for a week and we have 4 staff, 2 males and 2 females.
I fundamentally believe that children benefit from these trips in countless ways.

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To be fair I think on my trip we may also have had a non skiing qualified nurse, however their services were fortunately not required, the one teacher we did see for most of the day was a sports teacher so that will come I'm sure as no great surprise, can't recall who the others were or even if they skied.

As to the benefits I'm inclined to agree with daveyladboy, they are definitely there for the students far more than the staff.

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To compare a schools op with Oak Hall is an unfair comparison. Oak Hall are staffed by volunteers (and in some cases the staff pay to accompany the trip).

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I've just returned from a school trip with a well known company. The teachers all skied, but several advanced skiers on the staff team stayed with the beginners all week on the nursery slopes. How many snowHeads would be prepared to give up a week of their holiday to never even manage to ski a red run?!!

After all it is free

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Oh yeah, Snowsport Scotland do similar for our friends up north.

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Well remembered Basoid, - without even a tartan prompt.

I dont know the Course Organiser course but to have accompanying staff with the Ski Leader qualification is a great advantage. This was the norm in the schools I knew. The advantages for our youngsters included:

6 x one and a half hour lessons on the dry slope (cheaper because we taught them ourselves) thus ensuring everyone was mobile before going on the trip;

on the trip we could give the youngsters additional skiing time after their time with an instructor was finished for the day;

anyone who was struggling could be taken out of their class and given some individual tutoring (as often as not I found it was a matter of developing confidence in the transition from dry slope to snow) before being returned ready to get going with the group.

generally we were almost by definition committed to snowsports, experienced and knowledgeable

I am confident that a trip accompanied by SLs gave better value for money for the youngsters.

Much has been made of teachers regarding ski trips as a jolly and not doing a proper job. Some no doubt do, and it would be naive to pretend otherwise but in all the years of running trips, being involved in school snowsports at a regional level, and in retirement instructing for a number of schools each year (yes including with Skiing Europe), I can't say I have met any. I do remember the difficulty one time of sharing a hotel with another school whose staff did not exactly share our standards of discipline and that was difficult. I never saw them on the hill so I don't know what they were like during the day.

You know it makes sense.

Unique circumstances fatbob, . Whether the Council was right to do so or not is one thing, but normally there is no cost to the taxpayer. Not only do parents/students pay for the trip but the taxpayers who pay for teachers' salaries are getting much more for their money through the voluntary out-of-hours work the teachers put into the trip

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A snowHead

Basoid, I was surprised at Oak Halls prices, however I have every reason to believe the prices on their website are correct, I've talked to people staying with them before and one of the things that has come up is what terrific value they are, prices I quoted are straight off their website however I should have doubled the prices for the adult lift passes, the Jungfrau Region area has a wide range of discounts for lift passes with 6-16 year olds eligible for 50% discounts and over 62 year olds getting 20% Groups of 10 or more get a further 10% (approx) discount off these prices as well.

Possibly one of the reasons Oak Hall are so cheap is that they are a Christian Organisation who are not really interested in making a profit or at least not a large one Laughing

A snowHead

I have no doubt that kids get a lot out of a ski trip, but the issue is whether a school should be acting as a travel agent and providing private trips out side of its obligations and curriculum ? Teacher are 'doing it for free' Little Angel

so they must be acting as private individuals unless a formal 'ski club' is affilaited to the school or has some form of official recognition? Are these trips even legal ?

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After all it is free

rayscoops, there's nothing Illegal about the trips so far as I can see, just because someone volunteers to do something for free or even in turn for payment doesn't mean its illegal, now as I recall my ski trip was organised by the sports department as an extra curricular activity and all who were going had to attend a minimum number of dry ski slope lessons with those teachers to prove they were up to a minimum standard, as with any extra curricular activity you are dependant upon staff volunteering their time, this would apply to music, art or any other activity carried out outside school hours.

ccl, Under the 'Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992' it is clear that in this case the school is ‘the retailer’
“contract” means the agreement linking the consumer to the organiser or to the retailer, or to both, as the case may be
“retailer” means the person who sells or offers for sale the package put together by the organiser.
“the other party to the contract” means the party, other than the consumer, to the contract, that is, the organiser or the retailer, or both, as the case may be;
“organiser” means the person who, otherwise than occasionally, organises packages and sells or offers them for sale, whether directly or through a retailer;

Under the constitution of a publically funded school I have no idea whether or not a school can offer its services to the public (the trips are not being delivered as part of any formal teaching syllabus and are extra to the curriculum) as a 'retailer' of packaged holidays outside of the term time and supervised by teachers who are not acting in their employed capacity but on voluntary basis. If the school is a retailer what form of contract do parents currently enter in to with the school, and if the school disposes of its legal obligations as retailer to the 'orgainser' is this being made known to the parents or are they offering their services as a school and notb some other legal entity. Is a teacher executing its job under its employment contract different to a teacher providing volunteer service whether that is to the school or not. Can a teacher be disciplined for breach of school policy when volunteering (on a school trip or not) and not formally 'on duty' ?

Mount Grace have already stated that their school carries no insurance to indemnify themselves against failure of companies offering them ski holidays, and were not aware of this fact prior to the SE mess. Yes other insurances via various organisations should be in place but we can see that these are not in all case to be relied upon, and again I have no idea as to the operational constitution of each individual school but exposing it to £100K of debt may well breach the fundamental terms of reference of a school.

So when I posed the question 'are they even legal', it was in a general sense based upon all the issues that have become known with the SE scenario. I would have been better served asking what actually is the legal status of a school ski trip in its current form (outside of school time, supervised by volunteers with the school acting as retailer), especially as the lives and safety of children are concerned. I have not said a trip is illegal, I have been questioning the formal status of it. Maybe 'legal' was the wrong word, maybe not Little Angel

Schools can offer trips, but whether they are best advised to do so by making the parents contract direct with a specific 'retailer' rather than putting themselves up as the 'retailer' is something that I think should be carefully looked at and considered. If a school does organise its trips in this manner it is not really a 'school' trip as such and they ill be watering down their legal and moral obligations

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I remember my school ski trips, excellent every single one of them. Not seen one even remotley valid argument here againts them.

What you pay, where you go and the benefits teachers may or may not get, completely seperate issues. Ask any 14 year "do you want to go on a school ski trip" your only getting one response.

Help!!

Should school ski trips be stopped and should teachers run them ?

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