But which is the inside and which is the outside edge? Another definition needed in order to define what is already not that difficult to define. Besides that would maybe create a confusing and wrong idea that your skis are set on opposing edges. In your turn, both edges are set on the inside of the arc.
Outer and inner ski works well as a description, given that the instructor explains the expressions to the client. So did uphill and downhill for many years, given adequate explanation, but outer and inner are better words because they directly relate to the arc of your turn. In practice, understanding the terms is much easier than written words in a forum might suggest.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ccl wrote:
But which is the inside and which is the outside edge?
The ski is on the foot. The Inside edge is on the inside of the foot. The Outside edge is on the outside on the foot. Surely no-one could confuse them
Quote:
a confusing and wrong idea that your skis are set on opposing edges. In your turn, both edges are set on the inside of the arc.
By my simple definition, they are on opposing edges. One is an inside edge and one is an outside edge. This works for both arcs and traverses.
Quote:
In practice, understanding the terms is much easier than written words in a forum might suggest.
True. But as we are using written words in a forum it's irrelevant!
So maggi, the skier is about to initiate a turn. How do I tell him/her which leg to extend by referring to inside and outside edges when both skis have inside and outside edges?
I honestly think what you suggest is unworkable or least far more complicated than referring to inner and outer legs. There is no ambiguity about which ski is going round the outside of the arc. Besides, we want the skier to feel the processes of putting pressure on the outer ski, moving the hips over etc through his muscles, to develop a body awareness and a "muscle memory". It is, I think, more useful therefore to refer to his body than to bits of his skis. Of course it is necessary to talk about edges and edge changes but I for one do that in terms of a consequence of the body movements: for example, that by developing a dynamic outer leg extension you more readily achieve the edge change and the lateral movement of the hips over the skis.
It is all a matter of the best words to convey concepts of physical movements. Not always easy.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
that's why good video demonstrations are (in the absence of your very own instructor on the hill) so very good. You can sit in your armchair with a nice glass of wine and visualise yourself doing it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Hurtle wrote:
I give up!
Sorry
If you're traversing there is no inside or outside ski because you are not turning. That's the only occasion when I talk about uphill and downhill skis, and I feel very uncomfortable doing it because I try hard not to encourage anyone I teach to think about the movements they are making with those reference points.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Hurtle, in a traverse, you have uphill and downhill skis.
In a turn, you have inside and outside skis. Sometimes, we talk about the old inside ski or the new inside ski when we're talking about transitions between turns. Keep in mind that while you're skiing, it's best not to traverse. Instead, you move from one turn to the next, sometimes turning farther uphill than a "traverse" would take you before using your energy to move downhill. I suggest to clients that you continue turning uphill until you want more speed, since you'll get more speed the moment you turn downhill.
Anyway, in a turn, you have inside/outside. While standing across the hill or traversing, you have an uphill/downhill ski. Does that help?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
And all of this because I carelessly used the passé terms uphill and downhill way back in this thread. I plead guilty to a senior moment.
Lovely thought, pam w,. I would prefer a red, please.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
My very novice viewpoints and going from what a Level 4 instructor told me yesterday (in a large group); you ski quite like me but I go up and down a lot more.
I am not sure you are centred, you have bend in your knees but you hips are not flexing forward quite enough and so your weight is proabably more in your heel. I think this is also slightly evident in the tips of your skis which are not quite parallel but turning out ever so slightly.
You are also pole dragging in 3rd clip, an old habit of mine.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I was relieved on a course last year to find that our trainer was less bothered about my dragging a pole than I was! I still don't like it when I realise i am doing it though
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Heidiky talks sense here, the first thing that struck me is nice skiing, good base to start with. However, a little static, more up and down especialy hips forward at the start the turn helps so much. The up movement unweights the skis making edge transfer so much easier the hips going forward commits to the turn in the right position, (not too far back).
I would add that a little more of the upper body facing down the fall line may help as it puts a twist in the torso which helps the legs come around. If shoulders follow the skis too much it puts you in the back seat. This is more of a minor point with you, howeverit may help you improve.
Nice job!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
j1mb0 wrote:
The up movement unweights the skis making edge transfer so much easier the hips going forward commits to the turn in the right position, (not too far back).
Goodness, and I thought I was guilty of retro language with the uphill/downhill stuff. I don't think advice about upward unweighting is what the OP needs, nor is it what he was getting from various contributors. I was talking about a dynamic extension of the outer leg putting pressure on the outer ski, effecting a change of and early setting of the new edges - which is rather different from unweighting.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 13-02-11 21:51; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
pam w wrote:
Quote:
one is on the inside ie between you and the hill, and the other is on the outside ie between you and the valley
that's a new definition of inside and outside to me. When you do a complete turn on one ski, as I describe above, that "outside ski" (your right ski if you are about to turn left, unless you're doing white pass turns...) that one OUTSIDE ski starts off above you, then comes round to being alongside you (at the apex of the turn) then is below you as you finish the turn. Whether it's between you and the hill or between you and the valley (and it is both, at different times) it remains the outside ski of the turn.
Doing one of those inexcusable traverses, straight, no turning, is when it DOES make sense to use "uphill and downhill" ski, I reckon. Beginners do exercises traversing on the downhill ski, and more advanced skiers sometimes do it on the uphill ski.
If you look at the uphill/downhill ski picture there is a point when you are facing straight down the fall line - green skis... At that point you have neither ski between you and the mountain... You can see by comparing to the inside/outside picture that the inside outside is far less confusing as it is constant all through the turn AND there is no 'no man's land' during a turn (only as you switch from turn to turn)
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Here's a clear and simple drawing that shows why referring to an uphill and downhill ski in regards to a turn is a problem. Which ski is the uphill, and which is the downhill, changes during the course of a turn. And at mid turn, there is no uphill or downhill ski, because they're side by side.
Inside/outside is a much more clear a way to identify which ski is which when turning.
[/img]
Doesn't Little Tiger do a great job creating drawings?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 13-02-11 21:50; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The OP is making very smooth linked turns. Most of the movements are very solid and need only a bit of refining. Up and down movements in general are not ones you want to intentionally make.
Were I working with OP, I would primarily focus on which foot moves first. As Bob Barnes taught me lo these many years ago: right tip right to go right, left tip left to go left.
In other words, I'd like to see the new inside/old outside ski tipping first. This tends to get everything moving in the right direction and in the right order.
I would also play with some tactics, including continuing the old turn a bit longer so that the skis are turning uphill even as the new inside foot tips into the new turn.
Overall, though, I really like the movements I'm seeing, and think that with a bit of fine-tuning, it's likely that OP will jump up a level in confidence and ability.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
I don't think advice about upward unweighting is what the OP needs, nor is it what he was getting from various contributors.
It's not really 'upward unweighting' more moving the weight forward to aid the skis into turn initiation. It's such a simple thing but most people have missed it in the clip! Saying that someone is 'leaning inside' is probably going to always be true at some point. Picking out the cause of the inclination is a tad harder. If the OP fixes what I believe to be the 'root' then the inclining/riding tails/quick pivoting etc etc will all be much easier to fix
Steve, what do you think about the pivot, and how it's powered. Would you like to see it go away, or is it OK? Do you see any carryover of it when the terrain gets flatter in the video? If it's OK to keep, what about how he's powering it?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
heidiky wrote:
Quote:
I don't think advice about upward unweighting is what the OP needs, nor is it what he was getting from various contributors.
It's not really 'upward unweighting' more moving the weight forward to aid the skis into turn initiation. It's such a simple thing but most people have missed it in the clip! Saying that someone is 'leaning inside' is probably going to always be true at some point. Picking out the cause of the inclination is a tad harder. If the OP fixes what I believe to be the 'root' then the inclining/riding tails/quick pivoting etc etc will all be much easier to fix
Really a "fore-agonal" movement, moving your body mass forward and downhill towards the center of the upcoming turn. This is helped along by the hips staying angled towards the inside of that next turn, as well, instead of coming around with the skis and "pointing" across the hill.
The question then is, "How do you feel that fore-agonal movement?"
This is where I think tipping that old outside ski helps. To tip it into the new turn, you really need to be in the process of moving in that direction "fore-agonally".
Ultimately, this is also helped with the idea of straightening the knee joints ("opening" them). If you open your knees while maintaining your ankle flex, your upper body moves forward. If you do this while tipping downhill, your body moves fore-agonally into the new turn. Viola!
Steve, what do you think about the pivot, and how it's powered. Would you like to see it go away, or is it OK? Do you see any carryover of it when the terrain gets flatter in the video? If it's OK to keep, what about how he's powering it?
I am sure you'll school me where I'm wrong!
There is certainly a shift in the way the skis come around on the flatter terrain. I prefer the movements that I'm seeing in the steeper terrain where the femurs are rotating in the hip sockets and the pelvis is staying much more downhill. As the terrain flattens and OP moves into what is more of an edge-locked carve, the femurs lock up, too, and the hips stay virtually square to the skis instead of pointing towards the center of the new turn.
I would not focus on the pivot initially were I working with the OP. What do you think about the pivot, its use, and how he's powering it?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
If you open your knees while maintaining your ankle flex, your upper body moves forward
A good move to be able to do. I find most people find it difficult to flex their ankles in the first place! But yes, this is more along the lines of what I would work on first. Then the rest come more naturally/easier.
After all it is free
After all it is free
heidiky wrote:
Quote:
If you open your knees while maintaining your ankle flex, your upper body moves forward
A good move to be able to do. I find most people find it difficult to flex their ankles in the first place! But yes, this is more along the lines of what I would work on first. Then the rest come more naturally/easier.
Most ski boots force at least some ankle flex, and that's all that's really necessary to begin to feel this shift.
To play with this, stand with your skis across the hill on a comfortable groomed run (blue/red). Open your knees and tip your downhill foot to flatten the ski onto the slope. Doing just this will start your tips turning into the fall line! Complete the turn by simply continuing to tip until your skis turn uphill and slide to a stop. Do it again in the other direction. Play with these movements. You can do them on very steep terrain, too, as you advance. The sensation of letting go of the mountain that you get when you make the movements and the skis flatten is the "leap of faith" that moves you towards upper-level skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ssh,
"the femurs lock up too,and the hips stay virtually square to the skis instead of pointing towards the center of the new turn"
Is not having square hips to the skis, in "carving" turns the latest school of thinking. ie "being stacked" and isn't having ( I think your talking about) open hips towards the new turn encouraging counter rotation?
(I'm referring to carved turns only here!)
On the steeper terrain his femurs are rotating better because he has created better angles between upper and lower body, as the femur comes closer to 90 degrees to the upper body the ability to rotate the hip joint increases.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
gatecrasher, I don't think I'm saying that! The hips should point into the next turn ("downhill") rather than along the path that the skis are currently taking. So, even in carving, the legs turn under the hips and the hips point more "down the slope". "Being stacked" is more about the stance (staying long, especially on the outside ski).
Here's Sean Warman describing Michael Rogan's use of his hips:
ssh, misinterpreted your text, also I agree with the fact the legs turn under the hips even in carved turns!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
gatecrasher, I'd appreciate learning how to say it better... it's all about communication so much of the time!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
ssh, being mostly a very mechanical subject, each readers mind can read and interpret by filling in the gaps of whats not understood with the ideas they may already have!
Does that make sense?
Interesting video though, and a good source of quickly clearing up misinterpretations saves a lot of to-ing and throwing, but that's half the fun of these threads!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
gatecrasher, totally agree on all points. Just a voracious learning, and one who recognizes the weakness of language and the benefit of having many different ways to say what I'm trying to communicate! On snow it's so much easier: "Do this!"
then...
"Let's go!"
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ssh wrote:
gatecrasher, totally agree on all points. Just a voracious learning, and one who recognizes the weakness of language and the benefit of having many different ways to say what I'm trying to communicate! On snow it's so much easier: "Do this!"
then...
"Let's go!"
Does not work if the student is not a visual learner though!
and 'Let's go!' is not great for those that get really nervous and/or are being over terrained - like delta(??) by arcmeister at ESA Snowbird where she had no idea how to traverse and he set her off on a huge traverse and left her totally alone...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
little tiger wrote:
ssh wrote:
gatecrasher, totally agree on all points. Just a voracious learning, and one who recognizes the weakness of language and the benefit of having many different ways to say what I'm trying to communicate! On snow it's so much easier: "Do this!"
then...
"Let's go!"
Does not work if the student is not a visual learner though!
and 'Let's go!' is not great for those that get really nervous and/or are being over terrained - like delta(??) by arcmeister at ESA Snowbird where she had no idea how to traverse and he set her off on a huge traverse and left her totally alone...
Another example of how interpretation of words applies meaning that wasn't intended.
I can do a number of things:
Describe with words
Show with my body
Manipulate the student's body (with permission, of course!)
Offer a drill
Offer a manipulation (like when I pull on someone's poles to show them the basics of a nicely engaged edge)
The "Let's go" is a bit of a trademark of mine. It doesn't mean (necessarily) to blast down the mountain at mach-schnell (although sometimes it does!). It simply means, "Let's go play with that!" I don't like to stand around and talk and waste time. Let's get sliding, play with stuff, and then talk on the lift.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
How many ways can you say left tip left to go left though? At some point you will probably need some technical words to explain technical concepts in words... even if it is just 'counter' or 'square' or 'carving'. How many definitions of 'carving' are there now? Look at the inside/outside/uphill downhill issue here. Hurtle had been working with some of the instructors in that thread for over a year - still everyone is confused.
I learnt it the hard way - as you know - and I don't see movements at all. Manipulation of the student usually results in 'posing' them which does nothing for learning 'How to move'(this is very much an issue with learning proprioceptive skills when you have deficiencies and I believe also in training high level movement skills). Drills work only if the student can actually DO them and understands what they are to do in the first place(ah there we go again - how do you do this?).
IME the instructor needs a very good understanding of what they are teaching to be able to simplify well and not generate misunderstandings. There was a good reason I had race coaches and instructor trainers as my instructors - they had the best understanding of the technical requirements.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ssh, I agree teaching on the hill, it's much easier to be certain the information your giving is being understood, you have various tools to work with, the written word is not so easy because obviously you can't see if the information given is being interpreted correctly, you are not getting the visual feedback and you can't at that moment get feedback from the question "now how did that feel?"
With the written world I always find I can learn better when there is that element of "what your supposed to be feeling" ie "feel like your standing on eggshells" not just "what you need to do is"
Little.tiger,
I agree again, good instruction is when the instructor has a good understanding of what he is trying to convey, in my view he must not only understand the positions he is trying to put his pupil in but needs to understand what that particular position should "feel" like because he has felt it for himself and had it verified he is doing it correctly, I have also had a lot of lightbulb moments with race coaches, in the past I have been put in-and put myself in many positions, but its not until I have actually felt the difference that this particular position makes and had it verified I am feeling and doing it correctly, would I ever confidently be able to pass it on to others.
Wow - thanks for all the feedback. I need to re-read a few of the posts to full get my head round some of the concepts - but a few of things that have been said do certainly ring-true.
A few people have mentioned projecting the hips forward/across to help initiate the new turn - and this is something I worked on in my last lesson (with varying levels of success). The only thing I'm a bit wary of is letting this become an upwards 'pop'. The reaon being is that in recent lessons, I've worked on keeping the skis in solid contact with the snow - letting the skis/knees come up and under the body a bit more, rather than the body coming up and over (if that makes sense?).
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Is anyone going to learn much from this? Isn't it a case of, to paraphrase slightly, "writing about skiing is like dancing about architecture"
Dr John, I reckon so. It gives me a few things to think about next time I'm on snow, and I find having some drills to practice helpful too.
As others have mentioned, I guess it depends how you learn. I like having things explained to me, rather than just following/copying an instructor.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
abj, I reckon your head's ringing a bit by now! In my post I probably used the term pop incorrectly it's a term I probably used wrongly to provoke dynamic thoughts, as others have said and I'll rephrase, the reason you flex down and forward progressively at the end of the turn is so you have somewhere to " extend" from if a skier stayed tall at the end of his turn he couldn't make that extension movement to allow his body to project "across" his skis.
So, he's finishing his turn and progressively flexing down and forward, then starts to plant (I won't get too.complicated here ) but during the plant phase he can then extend off his "flexed" dare I say it uphill (inside) leg which should put his upper body across the skis and starts his Initiation into the fall line (all this is valid for clips 1&2) steeper terrain.
Skis crossing under the body in my view is more for straight line steering, verticali's etc & edge changes during absorbing a bump etc.
After all it is free
After all it is free
sev112 wrote:
abj,
You have a fundamental flaw in clip 3. When that snowboarder nearly cut you up you shoudl have carved aggressively in their direction, perhaps pretending to be out of control and about to wipe out into them, enhanced by a couple of poles waving about erractically, whilst shouting your full complement of german swear words at them
was that the down hill boarder that cut abj up ?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
abj, glad to hear you were able to pull something from this thread!
One other approach you can play with: at the point in your turn where you wan to stay away from a "pop", play with moving your mass down! You can move your body across your skis and downhill while flexing, so your body mass actually gets lower. This isn't "the way" to ski, but is certainly "a way" to ski, and the sensations of such a "retraction" transition will give you alternatives and help you feel what it's like to keep those skis firmly on the snow.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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