 Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| calling mars, |
Doing what? |
In a bizarre semi crouch sticking 2 poles up from your armpits like antennae.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| In a bizarre semi crouch sticking 2 poles up from your armpits like antennae. |
 excellent, I like that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, Shouting "Dodgems" and pointing also works 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jzBun, works less well when you are trying to explain to the 'safety patrol' guys about fall zones and why they should not be turning above folks when the fall zone is into said folks... Someone really needs to explain fall zones to these people
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It's just as bad, if not worse, over here. I blame the resorts. There's virtually no policing of out of control skiers, or enforcement of the most basic of the skier's code of conduct. Not even any attempts to educate people of the rules. It's freaking dangerous.
And it's worse for smaller people; women and kids. I'm pretty big, the jerks seem stay clear, but they go for Janis like she has a target on her back. Must figure they'll come out of it better if they collide with her, rather than me.
I sometimes run interference for my students, skiing above them as they perform a drill. In doing so, if traffic is really bad, and the hill is littered with out of control lame brains, I will ski looking like I'm totally out of control and about to crash at any moment. Madly catching myself as I fall from one foot to the other. Arms flailing all over, and poles swinging like I'm desperately trying to destroy an unseen pinata. People give my student and I a wide berth.
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| Quote: |
Also, ski poles make excellent skewers if you have an out of control lump wind-milling towards you.
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that thought went through my mind the other day when I was on a drag lift with a narrowish, and very slick, piste beside it - one guy looked distinctly "on the edge" (I had earlier descended the same piste, in a series of narrow snowplough checks - very slowly). I wondered about a pole but decided it would likely be driven into me - albeit the handle end. I decided on a hunched position and a shoulder - but it didn't come to that.
That place in Meribel scared me too, the only day I spent in the 3V last year, a low season day. It was chaotic, with the most horrible snow we'd seen all day. Some people obviously love it, but I struggle to understand why.
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I'm not used to busy pistes, it's normally very quiet when/where I go skiing. Tamworth Snowdome is about the busiest conditions I have ever witnessed. But a couple of weeks ago in Ski Welt it was fairly busy, still holidays in Bavaria and Austria. I would have to say the vast majority of piste users were in control and courteous and I certainly didn't see any piste collisions or near misses. However, when it is busier I do become far more aware of danger and I certainly skied a bit slower than perhaps I normally would. There were a few out of control beginners about and definitely a few style faux pas. When skiing with my beginner friend, I was careful to follow her and act as a 'shield'. I can take care of myself and take evasive action, etc. but a beginner has enough to concentrate on just getting down the slope.
I did see a fair few piste patrollers about in SkiWelt so that is reasonably reassuring.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| It's just as bad, if not worse, over here. I blame the resorts. |
I really can't believe that the US as a whole is worse than many busy European areas. Most resorts I have been to have been relatively quiet on piste compared to Europe and have the virtue of big SLOW banners on critical pistes and patrollers stationed to caution people at busy times of day.
Cause is common however - its the casual skiers who think that they don't need to pay heed to rules or decent behaviour because they are on holiday (and often where weaker skiers are egged on by larger groups). I'm sure the pricing of lessons in the US has something to do with it.
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I thought that was why you carried poles. Tuck and stick the points out behind you to ward off the speed loons
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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sack all the piste bashers and let the moguls do the job?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skiing in Masella, Spain, a few years ago with my wife and 2 kids, 6 and 8, we were descended on by a group of black balaclava wearing young lads on blades, tearing down a blue at very high speed, shouting loudly. They ripped through us, weaving in and out, between us, at speed, in one case clipping the back of my daughter's ski, clearly enjoying scaring the living daylights out of all and sundry. As a family, in those days, we skied very close together, with me acting as rear-guard gunner. I somehow clipped the next attacker with my pole as he shot across my bow. By then we'd moved across closer to the piste edge and he careered off and over with a loud shriek, down into the nice fir trees, the tops of which were only really visible. To my eternal shame, we just carried on and as I glanced back over my shoulder I saw his mates, stopped, hands on heads, one of them moving gingerly over to the edge to see if they could see him. Never did find out if he survived...
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| stanton wrote: |
| Ski industry to blame for producing carving skis ! |
I don't agree with this. Of course everyone, and their dogs, know how to carve perfect arc on "these new skis, which actually ski for you", at least if you listen to people, but in reality, things are a whole lot different. I mainly ski (I mean really ski, not going down WC course to my position) in Austria, and I would say things could only be worse somewhere else, but even there, I would say 90% of people on hill have no idea how to make nice carving turn. All these people have latest and greatest skis, but they still ski like we did 20 years ago with old style skis. Exception to this are glaciers in autumn, where majority of skiers are racers. But if I don't count racers, majority of people, can't make any use of carving ski. So I don't think ski industry is to blame for idiot, who can hardly stand on ski, yet he goes straight down without turning 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
To my eternal shame, we just carried on and as I glanced back over my shoulder I saw his mates, stopped, hands on heads, one of them moving gingerly over to the edge to see if they could see him. Never did find out if he survived...
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Dunno how you resisted going over to point and laugh!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I found that Arinsal and Livigno had more out of control/clueless skier than anywhere else I've been to to. Any other "problem" ski areas spring to mind folks ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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One thing I have noticed (and I don't think it's just in Austria where I am) is that many, how should I put it, less experienced/profficent skiers, seem to have gone out and bought the latest, top notch, full blown race ski (well as close as you can get in the sport shops) and think that because it has a picture of Bode on the packaging it automatically means that they will ski like him.....hello, wake up and smell the coffee!!!
I have often stood at the top of a slope, having spotted one of these 'herberts' with the latest Atomic Double decker Super G ski or HEAD World Cup GS with KERS, and thought to myself, hey they must be pretty useful and could be worth watching. Only to see them career off down the slope, out of control, trying to make a turn, but failing miserably and end up in a heap. I think the ski industry must love these types of customer as they are the only ones who will pay full price for the top of the range skis
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Slepnir - Please don't think that this problem of people being outside of their 'ability zone' is just confined to skiing its happening in all sports....It may sound political but it has grown during the last few 'spend spend spend' years.
I also do a lot of cycling and have done for years, I've seen the sports participants change dramatically as 'newbies' bought the best Cabon-Fibre bikes and get a reasonable amount of fitness then go racing...the problem is that these people didn't/don't take the time to acquire the skills to handle the bike and then cause massive crashes...Its the 'I've got to be a star' attitude that seems to be in society today.....grumpy old man rant over!!
Its a great shame, I think the only answer is gentle (and sometimes not so gentle) education whilst on the piste to these people..Of course its a tricky thing..I'm in the UK and like another comment earlier in the thread my family and I noticed exactly this about users lack of ability at a certain 'glenskiing' resort in Scotland at the New Year that had very hardpacked runs...bodies flying everywhere, either crashing or causing crashes. This is were you need user pressure and very robust ski patrollers. Some may say I'm a kill joy, but in the long run these people will enjoy skiing more in the long run 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| madmole wrote: |
| I thought that was why you carried poles. Tuck and stick the points out behind you to ward off the speed loons |
I much prefer "the helicopter" - stand tall and hold the pole by the wrist strap. Swing it around your head making helicopter noises. I defy anyone to get close. Watch out for children, they come in under the radar.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| kendub wrote: |
| I found that Arinsal and Livigno had more out of control/clueless skier than anywhere else I've been to to. Any other "problem" ski areas spring to mind folks ? |
Agree about Andorra. Add Meribel to the list.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
its happening in all sports....
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I suspect that's right. It certainly happens in dinghy racing - in the "olden days" people would spend years racing Mirrors etc. Now after a few weeks they all want an RS and the old boys mutter that they have no idea how to handle an old fashioned spinnaker.
I also suspect there's a lot in the argument about piste grooming - and piste management more broadly. Even in Les Saisies, which must be one of the least "boy racer" resorts in the Alps, they have bulldozed some trickier bits of piste which used to slow people down and you do see quite a few people skiing beyond their ability. But as I am only there when the pistes are not crowded I very rarely see any collisions - maybe one a season? I was knocked over by an overtaking and careless Frenchman last season, but overall I'm sure collisions account for a very small proportion of injuries. Certainly far fewer than the "leg breaker" conditions which result from a dump of fairly heavy snow after the pisteurs have finished.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
its happening in all sports....
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I suspect that's right. It certainly happens in dinghy racing - in the "olden days" people would spend years racing Mirrors etc. Now after a few weeks they all want an RS and the old boys mutter that they have no idea how to handle an old fashioned spinnaker.
I also suspect there's a lot in the argument about piste grooming - and piste management more broadly. Even in Les Saisies, which must be one of the least "boy racer" resorts in the Alps, they have bulldozed some trickier bits of piste which used to slow people down and you do see quite a few people skiing beyond their ability. But as I am only there when the pistes are not crowded I very rarely see any collisions - maybe one a season? I was knocked over by an overtaking and careless Frenchman last season, but overall I'm sure collisions account for a very small proportion of injuries. Certainly far fewer than the "leg breaker" conditions which result from a dump of fairly heavy snow after the pisteurs have finished. |
Thing is with sailboat racing; if they get on something too quick for them; or out in too much wind; they just put the engines in the race track and the problem drifts away.
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It's the same old saw. Youth today have no respect. (Same thing was said in ancient Greece).
I remember being young and wanting to ski fast. Instead of taking lessons to learn speed control, when I got the feeling that I was going too fast to control my path, I just got longer GS skis. When that didn't work I got Super G skis. The difference was I was only a danger to myself and wouldn't launch it if there was someone potentially in the danger zone (which would require more skill than I had at avoiding them). I had respect for other people, even when I was young(and still do).
Another difference is the hills are much more crowded these days (except for today when the windchill was like -35C). So if there is one nutbar for every 100 skiers, you will see more nutbars.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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a.j., Some very good points there and well put.
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| a.j. wrote: |
| ... I've never seen anyone being told they are skiing above their level or being too gung ho |
Won't the instructor be broadly setting the pace that his clients are skiing at? I'm not sure that the instructor will have much of an idea whether his client skis dangerously outside of the lesson if the client is working broadly at the speed the in structor sets for the lesson.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| REnE wrote: |
Slepnir - Please don't think that this problem of people being outside of their 'ability zone' is just confined to skiing its happening in all sports....It may sound political but it has grown during the last few 'spend spend spend' years.
I also do a lot of cycling and have done for years, I've seen the sports participants change dramatically as 'newbies' bought the best Cabon-Fibre bikes and get a reasonable amount of fitness then go racing...the problem is that these people didn't/don't take the time to acquire the skills to handle the bike and then cause massive crashes...Its the 'I've got to be a star' attitude that seems to be in society today.....grumpy old man rant over!!
Its a great shame, I think the only answer is gentle (and sometimes not so gentle) education whilst on the piste to these people..Of course its a tricky thing..I'm in the UK and like another comment earlier in the thread my family and I noticed exactly this about users lack of ability at a certain 'glenskiing' resort in Scotland at the New Year that had very hardpacked runs...bodies flying everywhere, either crashing or causing crashes. This is were you need user pressure and very robust ski patrollers. Some may say I'm a kill joy, but in the long run these people will enjoy skiing more in the long run |
oppress the poor, they will thank you for it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In Courchevel two weeks ago there were definitely lots of fast and out of control skiers, we concluded that the only way that they could deal with ice was to straight line it.
At least one of our party by his own admission had been skiing for years and had never had a lesson, in icy conditions it was very obvious that he was beyond his limits and I suspect that his way of dealing with the ice was to ski straighter and faster.
I am no expert, but the last time I had one to one instruction I was taught that there are two modes, carving using the edge radius, or weighting and unweighting through the turn (pre-carver technique), the skill being to know which tool to use at a given time, a theory that I can and have bought into.
Interestingly I tried to slow myself down and be more in control and concluded that it takes much more skill to do so.
While being guided on the same trip, it was suggested to me that the only technique to use is to go from edge to edge, which might account for the poor quality of skiing in the 3V's i.m.o.
For the record, I hanker for the days of the conventional spinnaker which required greater skill, however there is no getting away from the fact that an assymetric is more fun ... however sailors unlike skiers rarely break people when they get it wrong!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| a.j. wrote: |
| ... I've never seen anyone being told they are skiing above their level or being too gung ho |
Won't the instructor be broadly setting the pace that his clients are skiing at? I'm not sure that the instructor will have much of an idea whether his client skis dangerously outside of the lesson if the client is working broadly at the speed the in structor sets for the lesson. |
Fair point - and I do also assume a lot of the worst culprits never set foot in a lessons - but i can't help but think some time on lessons dedicated to control, assistance, rules of the road etc might have some effect....
Changing slant slightly what do people think about a skiing license? We have one for the roads because of the speeds and crowds involved - do we need one for the slopes nowadays?
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You know it makes sense.
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| a.j. wrote: |
| ... but i can't help but think some time on lessons dedicated to control, assistance, rules of the road etc might have some effect.... |
I'd like to think that would work, but it's an attitude that that is the root cause of dangerous skiing and I don't think that any amount of lessons or instructor exhortations to follow the FIS Code is going to make the slightest bit of difference to those people who get their kicks by skiing beyond their level of control.
| Quote: |
| Changing slant slightly what do people think about a skiing license? We have one for the roads because of the speeds and crowds involved - do we need one for the slopes nowadays? |
Not unless you are going to enforce it, and even then it won't stop people speeding (the drivers' licence doesn't stop some people from driving too fast). This was discussed here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bring back the bumps. The straightliners won't go very far on bumpy trails. Never mind not very fast.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| abc wrote: |
| Bring back the bumps. The straightliners won't go very far on bumpy trails. Never mind not very fast. |
If we're into punishing the majority in order to hamper a very small minority why not get rid of ski lifts? That would really keep speeds down. I've never seen a hardcore ski tourer speeding down the slopes in a dangerous manner. With one simple decision the problem is completely solved. What's not to like?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's nothing to do with moguls, shaped skis, tuition levels or any of those factors. It's simply about attitude. Some people have care and respect for their fellow planet-dwellers and some do not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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queen bodecia, exactly right.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I'd like to think that would work, but it's an attitude that that is the root cause of dangerous skiing and I don't think that any amount of lessons or instructor exhortations to follow the FIS Code is going to make the slightest bit of difference to those people who get their kicks by skiing beyond their level of control.
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Its a fair point for the speed issue and you are probabally correct, but I do feel that very little note is made of any of the FIS code even at beginner level so it does not become a habit. Some groups just dont have the basic use of the code drilled into them as they start skiing so its not something they are fammiliar with at all. (im thinking about looking up slope and stopping towards the edges of the piste rather than just whereever they fancy).
I would say it is hardly surprising that people are not following it, but that some of the blame likes with their instruction (if they have had any)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We learnt in Austria more years ago than I care to remember and things like looking up before setting off, stopping at the edge of the piste, and generally not careering all over the place were well and truly drilled into us. But I think it is true that some people have never had a single moment of professional instruction and just followed their mates, and it thus follows, the bad habits of their mates.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 31-01-11 9:48; edited 1 time in total
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kevindonkleywood, nothing in the FIS code is anything more than common sense and common courtesy. I don't think the fact that some people don't use common sense or follow common courtesies is anything to do with a lack of understanding of the code. Do school rules ensure every pupil behaves well? Does the Highway Code stop road rage?
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rob@rar, No I agree, the point i was trying to make though was that if nobody tells the kids what the rules are and nobody teaches the Highway code then you cant expect everyone to instinctively know what 'rule set' they are expected to conform to. I believe that instruction has a big part to play in developing peoples understanding of the rules and courtesies of the sport in the same way parenting is responsible for developing my understanding of crossing the road.
Probabally drifting well away from the OP here sorry.
For me it is 'common sense' to look uphill before joining in the same way i look to see if a car is comming before crossing the road.
For a lot of people the mountain is an alien environment and unless these little rules are made a habit (during instruction) then the distractions of the environment mean that common sense does not (IMHO) count for much with a lot of people. Even on plastic or in a dome how many beginners instinctively look up before setting off unless you teach them to do so? In my experience* none, they are all too focused on everything else.
At the end of the day though as you point out, you will get a small subset who always will get run over, smoke behind the bike sheds or hoon down the slope with no regard for others. That is why shotguns were invented.
(* Instructor experince equivelent of the spotty teen with one star on his Macdonalds badge)
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
| rob@rar, No I agree, the point i was trying to make though was that if nobody tells the kids what the rules are and nobody teaches the Highway code then you cant expect everyone to instinctively know what 'rule set' they are expected to conform to. |
I think the FIS code is instinctive, although I would agree with you that the "look up the hill before you set off" code is more than some beginners can cope with initially. But everything else should be instinctive for every slope user who has a little bit of common sense and is prepared to extend some courtesy to the people they share the mountain with. When teaching novices I always remind them to look up the slope, and I tell them it is their responsibility to avoid people in front of them. But I'm not going to recite all 10 rules in a schoolmaster-like manner as I've never found it necessary.
If resorts were serious about curtailing dangerous skiing they would make a condition of sale of the liftpass that it could be withdrawn if lift company/resort employees considered the skier was skiing in a manner which was a significant threat to the safety of other slope users. They would then have a few more pisteurs on the slope offering advice, giving warnings and in exceptional cases withdrawing the liftpass from the small number of hotheads. Those rules should be particularly enforced on nursery areas where more experienced skiers cut through, and at piste bottlenecks. Anything else, like skier licences, tests of the FIS code, ungroomed pistes, automatic speed cameras, etc is a disproportionate response and will punish the vast majority of skiers who are more than capable of enjoying the pistes without threatening the safety of other slope users.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| a.j. wrote: |
| Just because we can't ensure good behaviour from all, doesn't mean we give up entirely? |
I couldn't agree more. It's just that I think relying on the FIS code (even if it is drilled in to people while they are on their holiday) will do nothing to stop a small number of people skiing dangerously. But I have suggested a strategy which I think will work (and has the added benefit of not penalising the vast majority of people who threaten nobody).
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FAQ
although in my case I was the equivalent of that one that does the mopping that they don't even let operate the tills).
