 Poster: A snowHead
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Re phoning - It depends where you are and who is buried.
If you are inside a ski area boundary - making the call may be a sensible thing to do. US and Canadian patrol teams seem more numerous that French/Swiss in my experience - maybe because they are patrolling a whole bounded area - not just pistes. Not only may they get there pretty quickly ( I saw a whole team digging two guys out within 6 minutes in JH) and in some places they have avalanche dogs too - and if you suspect that the victims are not beaconed-up you might need the dogs - or the recco detectors that some patrols - and some helicopters carry.
If however you are in the back country - and there are only a few of you - you are the emergency service so I suspect you should get on with it. I probably have to phone 999 once every couple of months. It takes quite a time to complete a call. At least 2 minutes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, great  If I put those into an English mobile phone and want to dial them while in the area in France do I enter them as you have typed them or do I need to add any prefix like 00 1 33 (then leave the zero off the numbers you gave maybe?) Thanks
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, Good question! Was going to ask the same question myself
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If you put all of the numbers in your mobile phone using the international direct dial codes then you can use them anywhere in the world.
For the UK use "+44" then drop the first "0".
For France use "+33" then drop the first "0".
For Austria use "+43" then drop the first "0".
Basically "+" = "00".
The code for the UK is "44", France is "33", Austria is "43"........
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| 04 79 22 22 22 |
Is that the right number? I have 04 79 08 29 30 for PGHM Tarentaise in my phone. Do I need to change it? |
Rob. The number was given to me by a mountain guide. I believe the areas we ski are covered by the same PGHM so we should have the same number. I will try and confirm the correct number today.
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davidof, thanks, that's very helpful. There are a range of numbers for PGHM (eg common number, Bourg St Maurice [their local HQ?]) - is one or other number better to call?
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re calling for help, my (very) limited experience is that the call takes more than two minutes mainly trying to make sure the person the other end understands the location and them reading back double checking the location.
In proper way off piste locations how do you explain exactly where you are?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| davidof, thanks, that's very helpful. There are a range of numbers for PGHM (eg common number, Bourg St Maurice [their local HQ?]) - is one or other number better to call? |
Call the common one: CRS/PGHM. the problem is the PGHM works one week, the CRS the other. The PGHM are army units attached to the defense ministry and the CRS police units attached to the interior ministry. They are bitter rivals even if the cooperate on the ground. The whole PGHM/CRS/Security Civile should have been combined into a single (mountain) rescue service years ago but due to their rivalry this hasn't happened.
It's Europe innit, this way multiple layers of management are maintained right the way to the minister waisting stacks of tax payer's money and creating confusion.
While we are at it: http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Piste-Patrol-Telephone-Numbers
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davidof, thanks, and  to the mad bureaucracy!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| In proper way off piste locations how do you explain exactly where you are? |
GPS app on your iPhone?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
GPS app on your iPhone?
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I think the French will take a GPS position now but didn't previously and many other rescue services don't. I believe that they don't take them in the uk. Grid reference off a map is still the best way but takes time as would getting a gps position. Again search first call later.
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| Quote: |
In proper way off piste locations how do you explain exactly where you are?
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You are skiing off piste and you don't know how to navigate?
EDIT: Sorry, a bit confrontational there! Anyone skiing off-piste should be carrying a proper map (not a piste map!), a compass and maybe a GPS too. The knowledge of how to use them, of course, goes without saying!
If off-piste with a guide, I guess most people are not going to be bothered about the navigation or, in many cases, have the slightest notion where they are. It's an unlikely scenario, but it does beg the question of what do you do if the guide gets avalanched/injured or the weather turns bad and you get separated from your guide?
Local map (in a water-proof case) and compass live in the bottom of my off-piste pack. Sometimes pack my GPS too, but I also have the IGN app on my iPhone (which is fantastic BTW).
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 13-01-11 10:44; edited 2 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Quote:
GPS app on your iPhone?
I think the French will take a GPS position now but didn't previously and many other rescue services don't. I believe that they don't take them in the uk. Grid reference off a map is still the best way but takes time as would getting a gps position. Again search first call later.
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A GPS position, both in France and in the UK, IS a map grid reference!
In France, your GPS should be set to UTM/UPS, in the UK to OS Grid.
If it's only capable of giving you lat/long, bin it and get a proper GPS.
Better still, learn to read a map!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If in doubt regarding numbers to call, just dial 112 (or 144 in Switzerland) and ask for mountain rescue ("secours en montagne") or ask for the PGHM (pay - jay - ash - em, Peloton des Gendarmes d'Haute Montagne).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| call takes more than two minutes mainly trying to make sure the person the other end understands the location and them reading back double checking the location |
Correct - more like 3 to 4 minutes.
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| In proper way off piste locations how do you explain exactly where you are? |
Grid reference from a map (that you used to navigate there in the first place!).
You shouldnt ever be skiing off-piste with out a decent paper map - they dont run out of batteries in the cold
Grid reference needs to be the Swiss or French grid system. And not the UK Ordnance Survey grid.
So any electronic GPS (iphone or garmin) would need to be configured correctly.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 13-01-11 10:46; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| You shouldn\'t be skiing off-piste with out a decent paper map - even if you have a GPS system. |
Not sure I agree on that, surely that depends on wether you are route finding, wether you've skied the route before.
Can't say I have ever skied offpiste with a paper map, but I've never gone hours away from a lift either.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| You are skiing off piste and you don't know how to navigate? |
Is it a case of navigation skills or knowing the names of slopes, valleys, etc that would be understood by a phone operator? I can navigate my way around bits of some resorts, but without recourse to a topo map (and the luxury of time to work out where and what the slopes are called) I don't think I know the real names of many of those places. I might use the nicknames used for particular routes by the people I ski with, or it might be a description (traverse skier's right off the lift, 10 minute boot up a slope then drop over the edge) or it might be a route where I have no idea what it is called. I'd guess that's a fairly typical situation for many skiers who aren't based in a resort full time and might ski in three or four different places in a season and can't hope to accumulate the same level place names as a local?
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rob@rar (and kitenski), are you playing devil's advocate here? I really hope you're not serious! What use is giving someone the name of a valley or off-piste run? That's potentially a huge area to search to find you when every second counts. From experience, the phone operator may be at a desk miles away and will not have the vaguest notion where you mean from a place name, certainly not from an English nickname.
Sorry, I'm coming across as being on a bit of a high-horse here, but I confess I'm a wee bit shocked.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Grid reference needs to be the Swiss or French grid system. And not the UK Ordnance Survey grid.
So any electronic GPS (iphone or garmin) would need to be configured correctly. |
French topo maps (new versions IIRC) use UTM-WGS84 system - the GPSapp I use (MotionX for iPhone) allows you to select UTM for "Coordinate Format".
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Kitenski - A paper map is the most essential bit of safety kit for any mountain traveler!
How the hell do you navigate safely with out one ?! And what happens if the mist closes in ?
Electronic systems are great. But GPS consumes chews battery - by its very nature it needs to pick up satellite signals.
And especially in the cold battery life is limited. So you need a back up for proper off-piste skiing.
Grid Reference is the best way to notify the emergency services. Even if you know the local name of the area.
Saying, for example, the backside of Mont-Fort or Vallon DArby leaves the mountain rescue a huge area to search.
Particularly if the weather isnt perfect, or there are lots of other groups out.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 13-01-11 11:00; edited 4 times in total
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| What use is giving someone the name of a valley or off-piste run? |
None, that's my exact point. What info would you give to the phone operator?
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| Quote: |
None, that's my exact point. What info would you give to the phone operator?
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A grid reference! If speaking to the local ski patrol, I'd give them a name as well if I knew it.
I once had to call (in summer) a rescue out near the Col de Petit Saint Bernard and phone operator didn't even know where that was. Can't remember if I used a GPS reference or just read it off the map, but once they had the grid ref, I had a heli on the scene within about 15 mins. Mountain-biker with a broken leg BTW.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Everyone should have at very least the "piste map" (it has all the numbers you need)
And even if skiing with someone or a guide should take note of where you are, before going off piste you should know at least the name of the last lift you got and possible the last piste name.
If you are going off piste, and your guide is not offering any info regarding local names of sectors and valley or local known names then ask.... its at least something for the pub talk later. In fact why not have your guide explain to you the approximate slope angles and avvy risk and what history he knows about the area.
If you sign your life away on a disclaimer and then become 100% irresponsible for yourself and actions then im afriad you shouldn't be venturing off piste just yet.
P.S.
Oh BTW, there is this thing called the internet and it has a google thing that you can reserch all kinds of info
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| Quote: |
I really hope you're not serious! What use is giving someone the name of a valley or off-piste run?
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As with everything in this thread, it is all about context. Having seen guides begin to co-ordinate search following a serac fall in la Grave, they don't always use grid, they describe their location verbally because everyone knows where everything is and it doesn't waste time mucking around with the map. On a commonly skied route: e.g. Stairway to Heaven or something like that, I'd almost certainly do the same. Further from the lifts, I'd use grid.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| Quote: |
None, that's my exact point. What info would you give to the phone operator?
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A grid reference! |
Which is what I was suggesting! From a GPS (set to the correct coordinate system) or from a topo map. I certainly wasn't playing devils advocate.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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gorilla, sure, but that's guides talking to each other on radios, not dealing with a valley-based phone operator (who may not even be "mountain person" themself).
If I was calling-in an avalanche incident at Sainte Foy, I'd probably say "North face of La Fogliettaz"* for context, but that's an area of several square miles, it's really not much use. If I started saying "on the north face, just above les cascades" it's getting better, but the chances of someone knowing where I mean (and all of us using the same names for the same places) are getting a lot slimmer.
*Actually, I wouldn't because 1) phones don't work there and 2) I'd already be searching.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 13-01-11 11:32; edited 1 time in total
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| I also have the IGN app on my iPhone (which is fantastic BTW). |
Does this rely on an internet connection to download maps live, or are they stored on your phone?
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You know it makes sense.
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For sure - use local names if appropriate.
However grid reference remains the only unambiguous and accurate method of identifying precise location.
I am more amazed that people think its ok to ski off-piste without a decent map...
For proper back-country skiing in high mountains it is just as essential as beacon / shovel / probe.
Map reading and navigation is the most basic, and important, mountain skill.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
stevomcd wrote:
I also have the IGN app on my iPhone (which is fantastic BTW).
Does this rely on an internet connection to download maps live, or are they stored on your phone?
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Bits you've already looked at are stored on your phone. If you need a new segment, you need a connection.
You can make sure you've got all the bits you need just by scrolling around the local area while you're on wifi.
I have a French phone with unlimited data downloads, so I can pick stuff up "on the move" if necessary, but it's a bit slow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
For sure - use local names if appropriate.
However grid reference remains the only unambiguous and accurate method of identifying precise location.
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Maybe you should explain to people how to accurately get a grid reference?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Which is what I was suggesting! From a GPS (set to the correct coordinate system) or from a topo map. I certainly wasn't playing devils advocate.
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Sorry Rob, I've mis-read your post then. I thought you were saying that knowing place names was more important than navigational skills! Guess we're in agreement. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| On a commonly skied route: e.g. Stairway to Heaven or something like that, Id almost certainly do the same. Further from the lifts, Id use grid |
Actually a perfect example why apparently well-known local names could be confusing...
Do you know the local french name for Stairway to Heaven  Because Stairway To Heaven is very much the anglicized name.
And the Swiss often call it totally different (Louttes Econdoue, or something similair).
The magic forest at Argentierre in Chamonix is another good example (Plas De Jeurs in French).
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 13-01-11 11:40; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PJSki, that's rather a long explanation for a forum post! Unless you have a reliable GPS, you will need to read a map properly, which doesn't lend itself to a short explanation.
If you don't know how to read a map accurately, and you want to ski independently off-piste, the best thing would probably be to look at doing a day or two of nav training. You could do this in the UK with Glenmore Lodge, Plas y Brenin or with any mountain leader, MIA/MIC or mountain guide.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| I thought you were saying that knowing place names was more important than navigational skills! |
No, far from it. Knowing place names, especially if what you know is an anglicised/tourist version, might well give a false sense of security that you can call in some useful info.
Just out of interest, if you were in an area that you weren't particularly familiar with what would be the quickest way for you to calculate your grid reference? The folded up topo map in the bottom of your rucksack or the GPS app on your phone?
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I'd look at the GPS app on my phone, definitely, but I would want to combine that with looking at a map. The map view on my iPhone would probably be good enough for me but I wouldn't hesitate to get a proper map out if necessary - just a sense-check to make sure the GPS isn't talking pish (which can happen for many different reasons).
Smug ba$tard points here, but my map wouldn't be folded up, it would be in a map-case and folded to show the appropriate section. In fact, since I work as a mountain leader/bike guide round here, I actually carry wee laminated map sections of the local area, with the grid refs re-marked so that they're readable without having to re-fold! 
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| Quote: |
| Maybe you should explain to people how to accurately get a grid reference? |
Basically the X and Y co-ords of a map.
But there is a little more to it than that. (google is your friend).
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| The folded up topo map in the bottom of your rucksack or the GPS app on your phone? |
Depends if the GPS was already turned on, initialised, and locked onto the satellites.
GPS is a great navigational tool, and very accurate - so long as you still have battery.
Personally I almost always ski with my phone off during the day.
It can cause RF interference with beacons, and also I prefer to keep the battery fresh should I really need it (maybe even for something simple like a lift home at end of the day!).
When its really cold mobile phone battery doesnt last long - particular in mountain areas with low signal.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Maybe you should explain to people how to accurately get a grid reference? |
Basically the X and Y co-ords of a map.
But there is a little more to it than that. (google is your friend). |
So how do you utilize your map in zero vis, 'when the mist comes in'?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
A GPS position, both in France and in the UK, IS a map grid reference!
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Not on an Iphone it isn't which was my point.
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So how do you utilize your map in zero vis, 'when the mist comes in'?
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That's what real navigation skill is all about.
For example, my Mountain Leader exam navigation exercise involved navigating across the undulating, lightly-featured terrain of the Cairngorm plateau at midnight with deep snow on the ground. All perfectly possible with a map and compass - not easy, but possible.
On skis/board, I wouldn't be referring to the map constantly, but I'm very confident I could still give an acceptably accurate reference even in poor visibility. GPS, if available, would obviously be helpful in this situation - but I would always sense-check a GPS reading against my own calculated reference. It's very common for a GPS signal to be really bad just in the situations you need it most - e.g. in a forest, in thick mist, etc.
I really hate sounding like a smart-ar$e with this stuff, but as Haggis Trap said above, proper navigation skills are absolutely fundamental to being out in the mountains.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 13-01-11 12:11; edited 2 times in total
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