The remote detonation handles for ABS bags look like an interesting facility in tragic cases like this.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The Swedes did trials on those airbags. The trials involved experienced mountains guides and instructors who had been trained in the use of the airbags.
It was found that in a 'mock' emergency only a small proportion actually activated the bag. It seems the panic response doesn't include pulling the cord on your airbag. It apparently takes a great deal of training to react and actually pull that cord in the event of a real emergency.
I think it was the Swedes, somewhere in Scandinavia anyway.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chasseur wrote:
stoatsbrother wrote:
I feel uncomfortable with seeing some finger pointing going on before there has been a proper analysis of the causes here.
On another thread about this incident, someone new to snowHeads was implying he was glad that his guide was safe - when in fact someone had died with that guide 2 weeks previously.
Well said, stoatsbrother. I agree entirely. I also think it demonstrates disrespect to those that tragically died and poor consideration for the families/friends, some of whom may be part of this community.
Conflicting reports. Interior minister said they all had receivers and airbags but most reports seem to say only one victim did. Also reads like the one airbag failed but maybe it wasn't triggered. I am sure more details will emerge.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Just to be clear here, my comment about the guide being named is because whether he was involved or not, it can't be good for him.
Apparently its the same in an airplane crash and seatbelts. Reflex (in the panic) is to try and get out of your seatbelt as though its a car's seatbelt.
I saw this on a TV porgramme on 'how to survive an aircrash', which was actually quite good.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
To be clear, my comment about the guides name being plastered on the net is not implying anything other than the fact is it can't be good for him no matter what happened or what the cause was.
Loss of life is nothing but tragic.
After all it is free
After all it is free
A quick You Tube search shows just how incredibly quickly your environment can change Having only recently begun (under instruction) to venture away from the pistes, one can perhaps be forgiven for not fully being in total tune with the potential for an accident. And I tend to be reasonably aware of what goes on around me
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Chasseur,
Quote:
I tend to be reasonably aware of what goes on around me
Unfortunately I am quite the opposite. Combine that with the unlikelihood of my even beginning, at my advanced age, to acquire the encyclopaedic knowledge required to stay safe off-piste, I think I'm a walking recipe for disaster. Probably best that I stick to the piste, or at least close to it (and yes, I know that there's no such thing as 'slightly' off-piste.)
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Chasseur, that vid... I think I'm impressed. Have had to watch it a few times. I'm sure the technology works well but, in 3 recent avalanches with fatalities (2 in Val and 1 in USA), I'm told airbags were worn but most not deployed. You can see from the video just how little time the guy had to realise what was happening and maybe human reaction time is a flaw.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Bode Swiller, Would your old mates avalanche strings be better?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Chasseur, thanks for that link. Good video to see: he kept his wits about him and triggered it quickly, and it seemed like the Snowpulse bag helped keep him on top. I've just pulled the trigger, if you excuse the pun, on a Snowpulse bag. Been thinking about it for a season or two and was finally persuaded by recent events and a heartfelt email I got from Wayne Watson after the Boxing Day avalanche.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Bode Swiller, Exactly, and possibly, given that an avalanche (slab) may start whilst you are on it or possibly even behind you, by the time you've registered exactly what is happening, that window to take the potentially life-saving action of pulling a rip chord would seem to have diminished to a point where one is overwhelmed by the event.
On that vid, you can clearly see where the slab breaks away and when, from the commentary from the boarder. Quite scary how quickly it develops from there
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Bode Swiller, indeed. I suspect see some kind of practice drill is called for.
Oh what?
Oh poo-poo?
Oh Pull!
or something
Having said which in an RTA in July where my door was jammed and the window broken, rather than get out of one of the other doors, or use the emergency glass hammer within reach... I punched the remaining glass out with by fist and then crawled out the window lacerating my back and abdomen... so not sure I will be calm enough. I think the thing must be to deploy as soon as you suspect there is a slide...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Boredsurfing, where is he when you need him?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Chasseur, Bode Swiller,
lots of people have been saved by them....
Check out Xavier de la Rue in a huge slide and he manages to deploy. from about 2.2o minutes
I think the thing must be to deploy as soon as you suspect there is a slide...
And therein probably lies the issue. Its unlikely that many people (by that I mean those not trained either professionally or because of their profession) would expect to deploy until they were sure they were in a slide, and not just some powder kicking up around them. By that time, events move so swiftly that some may not be able to react sufficiently quickly.
It would be easy to say "better safe than sorry". But the reality and wish to avoid a deployment unnecessarily may over ride that view.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chasseur wrote:
But the reality and wish to avoid a deployment unnecessarily may over ride that view.
The consequences of a premature release are very minor (a bit of cost, a bit of hassle). The consequences of a late release could be life-threatening. I'll try to find a way of practicing releasing it with ski gloves on when I get my airbag, in much the same way as I often pop in to the Avy Park at Les Arcs to practice with transceiver and probe.
norris, amazing video, and he has a pretty good shot at outrunning it until the slab underneath him gives way in the second avalanche. But I didn't see him emerge from that...?
ABS: What then? How did you survive?
Xavier: When I realised that the mountain was pulling me downwards, and I had no chance of escape, I pulled the release handle on the ABS back-pack. I just reached for it intuitively – I didn’t even think about it. Then I felt myself tumbling over several times. It almost seemed as everything was in slow motion. Afterwards, I still have a few memories of how my friends found me about two kilometres further down. My first proper memory, though, is in the hospital.
ABS: …wow, two kilometres! How did the others find you?
Xavier: I was very, very lucky. The airbags protected me from being over-whelmed by the mass of snow. I lay on top of about six metres of hard-packed avalanche snow. If I’d been under this pack of snow, I’d simply have been crushed. Although I lay on top of it, my mouth and nose were filled with snow. I was unconscious and my helmet was strangeling me so that I couldn’t breathe. It took about ten minutes for Henrik to come down to where I was. He saw the red airbags in the snow, but actually they thought I was much further up the slope and were going to look there. Nobody really believed, though, that I could have survived.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 13-01-11 16:04; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar wrote:
Chasseur wrote:
But the reality and wish to avoid a deployment unnecessarily may over ride that view.
The consequences of a premature release are very minor (a bit of cost, a bit of hassle). The consequences of a late release could be life-threatening. I'll try to find a way of practicing releasing it with ski gloves on when I get my airbag, in much the same way as I often pop in to the Avy Park at Les Arcs to practice with transceiver and probe.
I think that ignores the whole point I made. I absolutely agree that in theory you are totally correct. But the view may also explain why, in reality, some people with airbags have sadly not deployed them.
The makers of the ABS airbag seem to suggest that one has to return the gas cannister to them for re-filling with nitrogen post deployment. A big disincentive to practice IMHO.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Chasseur wrote:
I think that ignores the whole point I made. I absolutely agree that in theory you are totally correct. But the view may also explain why, in reality, some people with airbags have sadly not deployed them.
The makers of the ABS airbag seem to suggest that one has to return the gas cannister to them for re-filling with nitrogen post deployment. A big disincentive to practice IMHO.
Fortunately I've never been in a position to find out, but I assumed that in those tragic cases the slide simply overwhelmed them so they didn't trigger it, rather than a conscious decision to delay until it was certain they were in a slide at which point it was too late to use the trigger.
It would be nice to have the option to use the trigger mechanism to practice without inflating the bag. Maybe our friendly snowHead dealer (livetoski) has thoughts on this?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar, its such a tough area to get into on this thread, as to why airbags are not deployed, maybe I will put together all the info and experience I have on new thread, where the thread title is a little less emotive.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Couldn't you just remove the canister? Don't know about snowpulse, but that should be possible with ABS.
On a side note, I lost the handle for mine yesterday - dropped-out while I was riding. Second time (in 3 years), fecking annoying!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
livetoski wrote:
rob@rar, its such a tough area to get into on this thread, as to why airbags are not deployed, maybe I will put together all the info and experience I have on new thread, where the thread title is a little less emotive.
Yes please
Can you also do a pay monthly scheme so I can get it past the finance controller
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stevomcd wrote:
Couldn't you just remove the canister? Don't know about snowpulse, but that should be possible with ABS.
I'm hoping that will be possible. The Snowpulse requires a larger pull force than the ABS system (7kg if I've understood it correctly) so I'd just like to get used to grabbing the handle while wearing gloves and pulling with the required force, and doing that enough times so it's an instinctive action.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
the cannister is removable with the snowpulse but I don't know whether you will get a realistic idea of how hard you have to pull without it all being connected up
TBH, assuming you are able to grab the handle, i don't think you'll have trouble pulling hard enough, with adrenalin, panic etc. i'd be more worried about yanking too hard and damaging something in the pack (although it all looks pretty robust so i probably needn't be concerned)!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Donethat wrote:
The Swedes did trials on those airbags. The trials involved experienced mountains guides and instructors who had been trained in the use of the airbags.
It was found that in a 'mock' emergency only a small proportion actually activated the bag. It seems the panic response doesn't include pulling the cord on your airbag. It apparently takes a great deal of training to react and actually pull that cord in the event of a real emergency.
I think it was the Swedes, somewhere in Scandinavia anyway.
On my first Heli-Ski trip last year the company provided us with 'airbag' ruck sacks and we had some cusorsry training before hand. With hind sight I do wonder if I'd have actually pulled the trigger cord should I have needed too.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Obviously any circumstances like the Val d'Isere tragedy are awful, so I don't say this lightly or without consideration of the victims and their friends/family.
With regard to people being safe rather than sorry in airbag deployment terms, I wonder whether people that typically fall into that category (for want of a better description), are the personality types that would not perhaps be in that situation in the first place.
This might also then suggest that those people that do not tend towards the "better safe than sorry" attitude, could be those most likely to assess their situation to be sure that deployment is necessary. Certainly these are split second thought processes, but potentially a critical delay none-the-less. As already mentioned, if people have experience of a slide, or are professionally trained or trained for their profession then there is no hesitation - they will recognise what is happening immediately.
For others, I'm not so sure. Even the chap in the vid I posted above takes nearly 5 seconds to deploy from the point we can see the slab break away (and presumably he can), just before his verbal exclamation.
Anyway, without the data for ski avalanche deaths of those that had an airbag, this is pure conjecture and may not even be a statistically relevant if the percentage is really minimal.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Chasseur, some statistics on survival rates of skiers equipped with an airbag at Piste Hors.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
some stats I got off snowsafe.co.uk
Since 1990, the Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research (SLF) has documented Avalanche Accidents when an ABS airbag was used.
•Of 106 documented cases, 105 people survived.
•Of the 105 people - 90% were not even buried or only partially
•10% were completely but they were buried so close to the surface that they were easy to locate.
•Statistical Analysis by the International Comm
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks rob@rar, makes for some insightful reading.
From that link:
Quote:
it requires split-second decision making and exceptional clarity to decide whether you should deploy an airbag while caught in the moving snow” but that ultimately it is the skier himself “who is the on-off switch
Another consideration - this time the suggestion being that those who deploy airbags invariably travel much further with the avalanche debris than those that don't. This in turn increases the risk of death by hitting obstacles or being swept over cliffs.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
stevomcd wrote:
Couldn't you just remove the canister? Don't know about snowpulse, but that should be possible with ABS.
On a side note, I lost the handle for mine yesterday - dropped-out while I was riding. Second time (in 3 years), fecking annoying!
The instructions for my ABS say do not pull the handle without the gas cylinder being attached. Cannot quote the exact words as I do not have the instructions to hand. I have heard several cases of people losing the handles - it always seemed strange to me that the handles are white and so easy to lose in the snow. I now have a piece of cord that wraps around the ABS handle and then attaches to the bag. The cord also makes for a larger target to grab.
2. Screw the cartridge in completely, that is up to the back stop.
Always screw the cartridge in first, then connect the handle. If you
release the handle without an inserted cartridge the whole system has
to be send in, as the puncture unit might be faulty. This would also lead
to the puncture of the next cartridge upon screwing it in.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
As much as it may feel strange (silly) doing it regular drills of reaching for the grab handle will develop some muscle memory which will increase your chances of activating the device when needed.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Chasseur, I'd rather be not buried and take my chances with the terrain below, to be honest. A quick end versus a slow one.
Circusthing, that is what I am going to try to do.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
stoatsbrother, as would I - it (the view) was from an AMGA certified ski mountaineering guide guide, who may well have the right experience to make that kind of split second judgement call.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Chasseur wrote:
it (the view) was from an AMGA certified ski mountaineering guide guide, who may well have the right experience to make that kind of split second judgement call.
As a slight aside, I was occasionally told if you're standing next to an active volcanic crater and you hear it explode you really shouldn't run away screaming like a little girl. Instead, you should stand still and look up in the air and see if any large rocks are falling in your direction, and if they are you should simply sidestep them so you don't get crushed. Reasoning being that screaming like a little girl while runnig away means you stand no chance of seeing that Volkswagon sized rock hurtling in your direction. I suppose this is a bit like deciding when exactly to pull your airbag.
I tried standing on the edge of a volcano when it exploded once. Screaming like a little girl and running away just felt so right
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Having only recently begun (under instruction) to venture away from the pistes, one can perhaps be forgiven for not fully being in total tune with the potential for an accident. And I tend to be reasonably aware of what goes on around me
