 Poster: A snowHead
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Just looking at Maier's body position and the flex in the tail of the outer ski indicates that it's doing a fair bit of work 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| To acheive this more equal distribution Warren teaches what he calls 'thigh steering' in that the turn is initiated by rolling/rotating the inside thigh (or what's going to be the inside thigh) towards the inside of the turn which then sets the inside ski on edge (no foot steering allowed). This has the affect of pointing the inside knee where you want to go (that's how I think of it anyway) which removes any of my old tendancy of slightly A framing the inside leg which also caused my outside leg to straighten & 'lock out' etc. |
With the exception of the relative weighting, this also sounds very similar to what Harb is talking about with his "Phantom Move" - as I read it, making body shape adjustments on the inside ski (and rolling towards the little toe side of that foot) and letting the outside one just carve naturally - although he is also releasing pressure on the inside ski at the same time - which then allows gravity to act on the lower body to angulate into the turn. This is also pretty much identical to some exercises we were doing in training the last couple of weeks. As someone said in the Harb thread, they all sound like variations of basically the same thing, looking for whichever trigger allows your mind to get out of the way and allow gravity and momentum to act through your body on the skis do the work.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd agree that you never get to a point where lessons aren't of benefit but having started skiing back in the 80's and experienced the worst that ESF had to offer I would say that once you get to reasonable level of competence and by that I mean parallel turns on blues and easier reds, lessons are not worth having unless they actually move you on which means getting picky about the school and instructor you choose. Forget the large group lessons, they are a waste of time and money, everyone tends to progress at the rate of the worst skier. Going by snowhead recommendations is a good place to start.
Having got put off lessons, myself and most of the people I ski with plateaued for a decade. any improvements in this time I think are more due to improvements in technology rather than technique. Happily I had some quality instruction this year things have come on very quickly to the extent that my enthusiasm has doubled and finding a good course is now my highest priority for next year.
On the subject of outside ski dominance I remember watching ski sunday once and 50% of the racers in the mens downhill were crashing out at exactly the same point on the the same turn. I think Herman Maier was in the commentary box at the time giving additional expert opinion. The regular commentators were saying the corner was too dangerous and something should be done about it, Maier on the other hand reckoned the corner was tough but the those who fell were using the inside ski too much.
Last comment - the inside ski is always on a tighter radius compared to the outside otherwise the two skis would collide.
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I rather agree with rich and had have similar experiences. My early skiing was with ESF group lessons and these were generally good and generally useful. But as I got better the group lessons were less useful and less appealing. So, for several years I cruised around the slopes improving(!) or ingraining my bad habits. In recent years I have skiied with www.alpineexperience.com the off piste specialists, including doing some of their afternoon technique lessons. My skiing has improved with the Alpine Experience teaching and they have given me new challenges in my skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, spyderjon, I cannot comment on Warren Smith's courses and methods as I don't know him. Many of the "new young guns" are now advocating 50:50 for weight distribution, and I've seen it work really well for some people on moderate slopes. I've given this matter a lot of thought, as I don't like to think of myself as a dinosaur. I've come to the conclusion that for moderate skiers (which is what this thread is about) or anything up to around 12 weeks, unless they're very talented, trying to keep the weight and pressure on the outside ski works best. This works all the time, in my experience, if you teach an intermediate skier to put pressure on the inside ski they just lean over to the inside! Of course Warren Smith (as I understand it) only does high end courses and his publicity suggests that unless you want to do pretty radical things, his courses are not for you. Maybe the reality is different?
With regard to the thigh turning, I do a similar thing and it works well, but you can do this without actually having to stand on the inside ski. You do get a more effective carve as both skis are carving, but you don't have to try to put weight on the ski.
Wear The Fox Hat, Now I'm back in France and could actually study the pix.... As far as I could see for Pearson, Putianain, Pallander, Raich, Matt and Maier: they were all clearly on their outside ski. The inside ski was carving (but you don't need much pressure for this to happen), but the weight transfer seemed to be happening at the normal place at the changeover for each turn. Of course (especiallly in slalom) they never actually finish a turn, so it can be misleading.
I do think it depends on people's level of body awareness though. If you have good body awareness you can vary the amount of pressure on the inside/outside ski as required, but most people do not have much (if any) body awareness! Sorry - I'm not trying to offend anyone.
Therefore I will stick to my original theory. Put a 6 week skier who stands equally on both feet on an icy black run and he'll be down in a flash and slide forever. One ski, one edge, let the ski do the work.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Of course Warren Smith (as I understand it) only does high end courses and his publicity suggests that unless you want to do pretty radical things, his courses are not for you. Maybe the reality is different? |
He's quite a good marketeer, I think in reality the standards pretty mixed but he certainly manages to set a high end tone, it works as fairly inspirational I suppose. Warren's got a pretty good understanding of what makes the UK skier and pitches very successfully to it, you to have admire him really 
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Crikey and here I was thinking SHs had gone all quiet for the summer! What an excellent thread.
IMHO, you never stop needing lessons. Any decent instructor I know regularly coaches and gets coached by others. 'Nuff said. However, I really like Ise's take on why people don't like signing up, particularly on their own or after a "gap". That makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting to ponder how ski schools can make themselves more "accessible".
Re ski weighting. I am firmly locked into the old school that on anything other than perfectly groomed soft snow (and possibly also on only medium gradients) your weight has to be around 100% on your outside ski at the point of maximum centrfugal force. (unless in special situations: bumps, powder, et al.) Sure, shaped skis allow a lot more latitude on weight distribution, but I don't see 50:50 as being the "ideal". I'm a fan of Stephan Skrobar at http://www.idfreeride.com/ and was delighted when he agreed.
Sorry, again I missed page 2. Easiski as usual, spot on.
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rich, I think it came out of an earlier thread, but ESF (or any other ski schools) group lessons are designed to get you to a reasonable level of competence on red/blue runs, and, errr...that's it. Beyond that you need specific private or "specialist" lessons. I'm not sure how much better they've got at it but certainly back 10-15-20 years ago ski schools weren't very good at holding onto clients once they'd gone past group 3 or so.
These days? I can't comment on Warren Smith but ID-Freeride and Alpine Experience are pretty fun folks to ski with! I would like to think that a decent instructor could make a decent pitch for occasional instruction once a season.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I agree, this is an interesting thread. Concentrating on the debate about weight distribution, my feeling is that it's one of those things which is taught as a black and white thing early on in your "career". However, as you improve you start making adjustments to the distribution of weight according to the terrain, snow conditions, your speed, type of turn you are trying to do etc etc. These adjustments sometimes take place during one turn, if for example, you cross from soft snow into a hard patch.
Same goes for width of stance in my opinion.
Interesting point about making ski lessons more accessible. I think ski instructors have a dilemma here. My understanding is that they make a lot more money out of group lessons so there is much more of an incentive for them to promote group lessons. Maybe we need to be prepared to dig deeper into our pockets? On the other hand, I don't agree that group lessons become useless past a certain point. In the first week of the BASI III thing I did, we were a pretty big group, but I learnt loads. Partly this was because the worst person in the group still wasn't bad at all, and partly because of the teaching techniques used by our trainer.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Therefore I will stick to my original theory. Put a 6 week skier who stands equally on both feet on an icy black run and he'll be down in a flash and slide forever. |
OK, I may be contradicting myself here, but I agree with this.
I don't agree with 100% on the outside ski, but it is easier to teach that, and then progress onto using the inside ski as well as a skier advances. Using at least a little of the inside ski provides better balance - going back to your black example (maybe not as icy, but one with icy patches), if you are relying on one ski, and that ski suddenly grips or slips more than expected, then you are left floundering, but if you have some weight on the inside ski, then you are more likely to be able to ski through a bad situation by increasing the weight on the ski which is in control (it's a bit like traction control in a car)
I try to ski powder at 50/50. Most of my on-piste I will be aiming for 75/25 - perhaps as high as 60/40, and in some cases back down to 90/10, but the only time I would ski 100/0 is when doing exercises to work on my balance, or when testing new skis (as part of a series of tests), but it's not part of my day-to-day skiing. At the same time as doing 100/0 I would also try to go the other way, and put all my weight on the inside ski, lifting the outside one, this, again, is a good exercise in balance and control.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As someone only relatively recently introduced to the idea of having much weight on the inside ski when on groomed (except when skating or doing accelerating steps), I'm still trying to make it a natural part of my skiing. I haven't yet really fully understood what the benefit is. Having it as a safety in case your outside ski slips out is spurious in my opinion as even a pretty unweighted inside ski would catch you anyway. The only thing I can think of is the extra propulsion I get from two lots of reverse camber rather than one. I've got to admit being on two skis rather than one does actually feel better with these new-fangled carving ski things (forgive my luddite roots - the skis i bought this year are the first parabolics I've owned). But I still find it easier to carve on one ski rather than two when on my old straights.
So, can anyone enlighten me? What exactly is the point of a 50:50 weight distribution on groomed?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 12-06-05 23:02; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| So, can anyone enlighten me? What exactly is the point of a 50:50 weight distribution? |
Better floating in powder.
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slikedges, No idea. I wouldn't go more than 60/40 in any circs myself. However re the inside ski carving, you don't require much weight on it for it to carve and have an effect. I usualy feel my weight's on the outside ski but my tracks suggest otherwise????
Wear The Fox Hat, Sorry you did contradict yourself!!! If you are properly balanced on your skis fore and aft, and standing well over your outside ski with good angulation, a sudden slip shoul;dn't inconvenience you more on one ski than on two. Indeed I find that if the weight's on two you have nowhere to go, but if the weight's on only one, the other(inside) ski can catch you as slikedges, says.
I am not saying that more or less weight on the inside ski is ALWAYS wrong, but I don't agree with teaching it to start with. You do need good balance and body awareness to be able to vary your weight/pressure from one ski to the other. Most holiday skiers don't have that. However the trick is obviously to try to overcome the prejudice against lessons generally taught by the big schools and encourage people to continue to learn so they can get to this stage.
I think the prices charged by many schools (especially in 3V and Val D etc) for private lessons is a big deterrant. People seem to expect to pay through the nose for privates - why should they?
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You know it makes sense.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
| slikedges wrote: |
As someone only relatively recently introduced to the idea of having much weight on the inside ski when on groomed
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Powder's always been equal weighting; my question referred only to while on groomed (tho I agree it isn't explicit in that closing question of my original post, so I've now edited it in ).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The ski is a turning tool so it really is up to the skier to decide in the situation that they find themselves how much weight is required.
Its a dynamic sport. If you are good you could ski the whole run on one ski inside and outside edge. If you turn the ski you are about right if you can't your weight is wrong..!! And try doing more than a little wiggle of a turn..!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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JT, does that become a definition of "good"? I reckon doing runs on one ski is great exercise...particularly standing up again...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges, IMHO, powder works better 60/40 or so. I think the rest of body balance and position is harder to get right?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Murdoch, In my relatively limited experience of powder or deepish snow/slush, I just try for as near equal weighting as I can get, but my real question is, being in the process of trying to embrace equal weighting on groomed.....just why am I doing it?
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slikedges, I have no idea!!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, if it doesn't feel right don't do it I'd say. some people on this thread seem to be in danger of being overly prescriptive. on hard snow, if my outside ski stops carving and starts going straight on i know i need to put more weight on it. on soft snow, if the outside ski feels like it's digging in more than the inside one, i know i need to take some weight off. i have no idea whether this is when the weight distribution is 60/40, 90/10 whatever. in fact, i defy anyone to tell with any accuracy (without measuring equipment) how their weight is distributed between their feet while doing something dynamic like skiing
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Arno,
| Quote: |
on soft snow, if the outside ski feels like it's digging in more than the inside one, i know i need to take some weight off
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You can ski on your outside ski, can't you? Why do you need to put weight on your inside one instead?
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100% on the inside ski is fun too, for a change. Royal (Reuel) christies, outriggers, tip drags, and other turns I've forgotten the names of!
I take my hat off to anyone who can perform flowing linked left and right royal christies - absolutely beautiful. I've never cracked them on the left ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
| slikedges, if it doesn't feel right don't do it I'd say. some people on this thread seem to be in danger of being overly prescriptive. |
quite, what was powder again? I got lost fairly quickly.
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slikedges, being a bit thick - not sure i understand the question!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Arno, Sorry, I wasn't being very clear but it's the same as my original question. Why put any weight on the inside ski on groomed when we can all ski perfectly well on the outside ski on groomed?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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To modulate the pressure on the outside ski and have faster/smoother transitions?
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slikedges, good question - on groomed slopes, i try to keep my skis in contact with the snow all the time so there must be some weight on the inside one (even if it's not very much). beyond that, i really don't think about it very much so long as i feel balanced and the outside ski is carving properly
i will say this: i find it harder to ski on one ski than on two. this suggests to me that the inside ski does have a role to play in providing balance (if nothing else). if you find this too, i'd suggest that even if, during a normal turn, you are trying to put all your weight on the outside ski, you probably aren't
i'm going to shut up now because, having accused other people of over-analysing, i'm in danger of doing it myself 
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You know it makes sense.
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Also by having equal weighting on both skis, it makes the inner/uphill/unweighted ski less likely to be knocked off track by a lump of snow. Not so important on corduroy, but much more important in crud, heavy powder, or slush.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You know I've been skiing for over 30 years and this thread has me completely confused ! has someone invented a device that lets you accurately measure your weight distribution whilst moving on skis ?
(in fake yorkshire accent) when I were a lad, all you had to remember was keep the weight on the lower ski and the top ski ahead , don't sit back unless the snow is above your knees and you can't see your ski tips and lastly don't forget to look up the hill as you rejoin the piste 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Arno, Sorry, I wasn't being very clear but it's the same as my original question. Why put any weight on the inside ski on groomed when we can all ski perfectly well on the outside ski on groomed? |
Why, when taking a bend fast, would a rally car be more stable and having better handling, with a racing suspension and all four wheels in good contact with the ground, and not just two?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Murdoch,
Don't know if it is a 'definition' of being good, its just not that easy to do, especially the weaker leg which I suppose would be the point of the exercise...IMO.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All learning experiences involve reappraisal and unlearning.
When you learn something at school, and then go on to university, you find that what was presented as a certainty is actually ringed about with uncertainty and added complexity. However, that's not what you are taught when you're an early learner. It would confuse you.
So with skiing. The important learning objectives for novice skiers are to attain outside ski dominance and to pressure the boot tongue, so lessons taken in the early stages of progression necessarily focus on these aspects. As your skiing progresses, you learn that in some situations you need to blend pressure between the outside and inside ski, and that you need to be centred on your skis rather than agressively forward. So you unlearn the simple version and start to build in the complexities.
A good skier will be two-footed, varying pressure between outside and inside ski as the situation and conditions demand. Sometimes you'll use the inside ski to apply steering movements.
Just my $0.02, and that, I think, is what WTFH was getting at.
Oh yeah. Concerning the original question. You never stop needing lessons. Never. After all, even the Herminator still has a coach.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Acacia, Pretty much exactly what I was saying!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Acacia,
| Quote: |
A good skier will be two-footed, varying pressure between outside and inside ski as the situation and conditions demand. Sometimes you'll use the inside ski to apply steering movements.
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When and why do you put pressure on the inside ski on groomed? Is it just steering movements?
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GrahamN, I've done that too, but no-one's really given me a good explanation yet. comprex has I think come closest and I think there's a lot of truth in what Kramer said too. I've got to admit being on two does feel better (most of the time anyway, ie not when it's very hard snow) but why?
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Well as a simple guy I ask a simple question - if you don't pressure the inside ski how is it going to bend into reverse camber and match the outside ski in the turn? If it doesn't turn itself, and thereby turn you, you will have no choice but to resort to lifting it off the snow and turning it with your leg, no matter how subtly you might do it. With today's relatively soft, short and and carvy skis Shirley there must be more emphasis on the use of the inside ski?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Alan Craggs, True, but isn't that what people used to do? ie ski largely on the outside ski?
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Don't call me Shirley
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FAQ
), and still resort to the good old tried and tested technique - panic 