 Poster: A snowHead
|
Iceland savings accounts were a good deal.
One day, two men turned up in a village. They spent two days erecting a big cage and asked everyone to come to a presentation on Wednesday evening. The smarter dressed of the two stood up and announced he wanted to buy all the monkeys that the villagers could catch. He said he would pay £5 for each monkey.
The next morning, the villagers were queuing with lots of monkeys. The two men paid them out and announced they wanted a lot more monkeys.
The next day, the villages were queuing again but there were fewer monkeys. The sharp dressed man announced he would double the fee to £10 a monkey.
The next day there were fewer monkeys but those that had caught them were happy with their returns. £25 a monkey announced the man.
Hardly any villagers had caught monkeys that night as there were very few left in the trees. The man announced that he needed to go to the city to organise another cage and would be back in 2 days but his assistant would keep paying people £25 per monkey.
The following morning the villagers watched as only 3 villagers had monkeys to sell. The cage was indeed now full.
The assistant announced that he knew his boss would pay £50 per monkey when he returned as he really needed the monkeys. He wanted to help the villagers out and as there were so many monkeys, he would sell them some monkeys for £30 each, so they could sell them back when the man returned. The deal was so good, a real 'no brainer' so the villagers raided their life savings and bought nearly all of the monkeys in the cage.
The smart dressed and his assistant were never seen again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
bar shaker, That's not really helpful IMHO
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Do you get monkeys in Iceland?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I considered buying some euros off Crown recently but simply did'nt have the cash! Not once have I seen a thread on here warning of a potential scam with Crown yet a lot of people seemed to recommend them.
Not that it will help my hope goes to any who's lost out and also hope no recommendations came from any links to Crown!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
I considered buying some euros off Crown recently but simply did'nt have the cash!
|
Then you'd be no worse off if you had 
Scams generally work because people are generally gullible. And people generally rush to recommend when they feel like they've had a deal. So, to generally generalise in a general way, I'd say that forums are generally perfect places to find victims of such scams... generally. Now then, I've got a small problem with this $130million I've got locked in a bank in Nigeria...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Money as debt. Recommended to me today - fascinated both Mrs a and me for about 40 minutes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| manicpb wrote: |
| ..... Not once have I seen a thread on here warning of a potential scam with Crown... |
It is still legal for you to think for yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| achilles wrote: |
| Money as debt. Recommended to me today - fascinated both Mrs a and me for about 40 minutes. |
thanks for digging that up. I have seen it before but good to be reminded. My parents always said "never a borrower or a lender be" but I wish they'd just said "be a lender".
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
achilles, that is indeed an excellent vid isn't it?
It lays bare the inherent vulnerabilities of the current system.
There are however one or two quite strong arguments against some of it's main points. Fortunately though there's a part II that presents and then demolishes those arguments.
Part II is longer and a little bit more 'advanced': the two of them are sort of like GCSE and 'A' Level in How we are being ripped off en-masse by the usury pedallers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Let's get back to the original issue which is that lots of people have almost certainly lost substantial sums of money. The reason that these people lost their money was many-fold: greed, too trusting; naivete; ignorance; and probably a few others.
Let's remind ourselves that if something seems a really good deal, then we have to thoroughly check it out. This business did not fail (almost certainly) because it was a scam but because it ultimately had a poor business plan. I'm sure the guys at Northern Rock thought they were on to a winner when the rustled up their plan to borrow money off the short-term wholesale markets and invest it in a burgeoning mortgage market.
There is also the principle of risk & reward. If we think we are saving £10 in fx charges / commission / fx spreads or whatever costs, yet risking (or potentially putting at greater risk than the alternatives) the entire amount of the deal the it's worth considering is that risk really worth it.
I had a look at the moneysavingexpert.com fx comparison calculator and the difference between the top deal, Best Foreign Exchange (whoever they are) and the post office for £1000 worth of Euros was about £15. Not a huge amount in the scheme of things.
I know it's easy to be wise after the event but this is a useful reminder to exercise all due caution when handing over money, even to what seems a thoropughly secure business. As the OP stated, he thought they were covered yet ultimately they weren't. A very unpleasant lesson unfortunately for far too many people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
holidayloverxx, No its not really helpful now, after the event, but every time I see a deal that looks too good to be true, I ask myself if I am buying a valuable monkey.
Gold, at the moment, is a very valuable monkey. Its price (a record at yesterday's close) is being driven not by industrial demand but by speculators riding on investors' currency and commodity fears. The industrial value of gold (what it should be trading at to satisfy industrial demand) is around £850 an ounce. The smart money has already been made and will soon start to exit gold. Because you can hold gold without having to have ingots in your shed, that then need to be transported and sold, the price will collapse quickly when it starts to move the other way.
Part of the problem with CCE is that we have all seen institutions bailed out and could easily be forgiven for thinking that financial transactions such of this must be regulated and protected. They are when they are with your bank.
I doubt CCE started out as a Ponzi scheme but would be certain that it ended up as one once Sterling stopped rising and the business model collapsed. In fact, the business model only worked when Sterling was rising.
The Iceland reference was just another reminder. In this case, the UK government bailed out savers with a view to getting the money off the Iceland government. The Icelandic population had a referendum on paying out and, quite rightly I think, said FYL. How would we feel if the UK government bailed out the customers of CCE, were they almost all Icelandic?
CCE won't be the last Ponzi scheme. These days you need to look every gift horse in the mouth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I have used TMS 3 times before and no problem at all. Money pitched up on the day ordered.
Martin Lewis of Moneysavingexpert recommended them etc. etc.
Doesnt help the fact that £1K of mine and £1500 of a friend has now vanished.
You would wonder how they could screw up so badly. Buy money for X sell it for X-10% voila!
If they were speculating on the future movements of money then I can see where they could mess up badly.
Luckily it's not life, or holiday threatening for me but I do feel sorry for those who it is. Also there are some who have lost £20K or more. That would hurt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
admin, most riveting video I have seen this year - and it gripped Mrs a too, who doesn't normally take an interest in the finer pints of finance. I am lucky in the friends I have who put me on to such gems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I feel really sad for those who have lost out to this company failure. Some of the posts on here seem to forget that hindsight is always 20:20.
Regardless of the squirming and buck passing that Martin Lewis is doing on his own website in his normal ranting fashion of “I know best”, the fact is that he set up his site as a self publicity vehicle, tuff, if you cock up, why not just admit it. If he continues to recommend that people visit his site to get an honest opinion of what’s a good deal and what ain’t, he can’t whinge when he get’s it wrong and start (now, after the horse has bolted) to say that “it’s not our fault as we just show a list so it’s up to you to check out …. Blah blah blah”.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Wayne wrote: |
| I feel really sad for those who have lost out to this company failure. Some of the posts on here seem to forget that hindsight is always 20:20..... |
I don't think there is much 20:20 hindsight about any of the posts; those who chose not to go along with recommendations to use CE were using foresight. Just because Martin Lewis is suggesting something has never been an excuse for thinking for yourself.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 6-10-10 11:22; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Wayne, lots of people recommended Icelandic banks.
The model of CCE was patently risky. You give them your money now, they give you money back at a surprisingly good rate at sometime in the future. The fact that for some of the posters this had worked before is neither here nor there. Russian Roulette can work quite well for the first few shots.
We are all big boys and girls and this is a tough lesson, and I admire the attitude of most of those posting here who were stung.
phillip33, which bit of dsoutar's analysis do you disagree with?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
[quote="mountainaddict"]
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
It really was an obvious scam.
|
Disagree. As others have said, they consistently offered higher rates than other forex providers (eg I got a quantity of euros from them at 1.20 plus a few months back (ordered 2 months before that) when the rate was significantly lower on the high street) and, again as mentioned they had been operating for over 5 years.
|
Bernard Madoff started his business in 1960 and admitted that the ponzi scheme that grew out of it began in the 90s. He got away with it until 2008.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Scam is probably a harsh term, more likely they were treating peoples money a bit like a short trader ('borrowing' the cash to invest in short term positions, also see lehman bros, and didn't that end well) or similar, and got caught out in a position they couldn't maintain, and then started having to rob peter to pay paul.
Sadly people who didn't realise how those top-end exchange rates they were getting were being funded end up carrying the can.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
IIRC Northern Rock savings accounts were considered a good deal.
|
as far as I am aware - despite all the hooha - not a single Northern Rock customer lost any money at all. same obviously cannot be said for the poor shareholders (they were also "bigged up" as a strongly growing share in '06/early '07.)
NR STILL have some of the best savings rates out there and are probably as safe as anywhere else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think i'm right in saying that bank and building society accounts ARE underwritten by the FSA so the bank accounts were never at risk. Nor were peoples homes as the mortgages that NR held would be treated as assets that'd be hoovered up by other banks had NR gone to the wall.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| boardiac wrote: |
| .....as far as I am aware - despite all the hooha - not a single Northern Rock customer lost any money at all. . .. |
True, because the government changed the rules when there was a run on the bank. However, taking up a dodgy deal because the taxpayer will fork up when it is exposed is a rather despicable way to live, no? Or are you an MP?
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 6-10-10 12:37; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
funny you should mention that (and sorry to go off-topic), but on the subject of monkeys: If you pay peanuts...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
wayne
i disagree with his tone and words like greed, to strong for me,and yes i did lose,and yes i also was very worried when i saw the large rate being offered for november,i smelt a rat but tried and couldnt get my money back,and boom two days later!!!, it was only a grand,i say only, compared to other,s losses its small,and without sounding arrogant i can afford it. its to easy to call someone greedy with hindsight,most people who have made lots of money have gambled amongst other things to make money,so taking a risk is natural if you wish to make money and lots of it,but with that reward comes risk,i was not greedy or ignorant or naive,i just toook a chance( i have used them for 5 years no problems) and lost this time, i will take many other chances to in the future fully aware of the risks,i just dont need some **at telling me " i told you so" thats all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
phillip33,
I agree with you 100%.
Really sorry to hear you lost out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Wayne, hear, hear
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
The model of CCE was patently risky.
|
Ehhh?? And how TF was the man in the street (ie me!) supposed to be any more aware of Crown Currency's model than that of Marks & Spencer or Thomas Cook if I went to change money there??
| Quote: |
Sadly people who didn't realise how those top-end exchange rates they were getting were being funded
|
Again...why would I/we?
| Quote: |
this is a useful reminder to exercise all due caution when handing over money, even to what seems a thoroughly secure business.
|
Exactly! I had no reason to think for a moment that my money wasn't safe! Hands up!! Anyone on here handed money over to an airline recently?? People will be happily booking bargain 1p flights with Ryanair (on the same basis as I used Crown ie to save a few quid - which is distinctly different to the 'greed' comments by some) - but will they know how Ryanair is being funded? Will they even consider that they could go bust? Who's to say that they couldn't? Who'd have thought that (quoting above) 'seemingly thoroughly secure' businesses like Woolworths or MFI would go under? Probably only Barshaker.....
| Quote: |
As the OP stated, he thought they were covered yet ultimately they weren't.
|
Exactly - 'cos that's what Crown's website said! (ie covered by the FSA). Turns out that foreign exchange must be THE ONLY banking-type/financial business where someone's money is not ALWAYS secured by the FSA or FSCS - everything else appears to be - eg savings, mortgages, investments, endowments etc. I'm coming round to the view that this is a major anomaly in the finacial regs or law and am considering taking it up with my MP - not to get my money back but with a view to hopefully protecting others in the future. The bottom line is that this just can't be right.
And finally.....Not sure if bar shaker is attempting wit or helpful advice with the monkeys story, but as someone affected by this debacle I consider that it's nothing more than taking the p***. Thanks holidayloverxx for pointing out that that was not exactly helpful. I do take some comfort from the more sympathetic attitude of more right-minded  - which is thankfully the majority. Now just waiting for bar shaker's sageful pronouncement (as he/she is so good at foresight) as to what will happen (in terms of getting any money back) now that administrators have been appointed at Crown....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Exactly - 'cos that's what Crown's website said! (ie covered by the FSA). Turns out that foreign exchange must be THE ONLY banking-type/financial business where someone's money is not ALWAYS secured by the FSA or FSCS - everything else appears to be - eg savings, mortgages, investments, endowments etc. I'm coming round to the view that this is a major anomaly in the finacial regs or law and am considering taking it up with my MP - not to get my money back but with a view to hopefully protecting others in the future. The bottom line is that this just can't be right. |
i don't wish to be an ar$e but if you think that is the case you should probably stay out of investments
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| mountainaddict wrote: |
And how TF was the man in the street (ie me!) supposed to be any more aware of Crown Currency's model than that of Marks & Spencer or Thomas Cook if I went to change money there??
|
Take the point, but I think the "model" in question is the 'you give us cash now, we promise to give you other cash later' concept. The point about Thomas Cook and M&S is that they hand the cash over then and there. CCE were operating a bit more like an online retailer - you pay some money and then sit with your fingers crossed that something arrives in the post. So in the same way that you make a judgement about the reliability of online retailers when you use them, people using CCE should have been making a judgement about how likely they were to honour the deals. Note that I'm not suggesting which way that judgement should have gone...just that there should have been some thought put into it...
Sad to hear that people have potentially lost so much on this - there but for the grace of laziness etc.
Also, +1 for Arno's post...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
mountainaddict, would you give a 100% payment 6 months in advance to a car importer whose showroom you had never visited?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Post deleted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
mountainaddict, I was attempting to be helpful.
The story, told to me years ago, has stopped me doing many things and stopped me sending a grand to an internet company in the hope that the postie will ride up on his bike, in six weeks time and give a packet of Euros that is 5% better than I could get by cycling myself down to the post office and getting them over the counter. I am an eternal optimist, so the story is a bit of a crutch.
You have said you were aware of MFI and Woolworths, you had probably heard of Lehmans Brothers too. You may also have heard of Bernie Madoff. In the times we now live, nothing is secure other than government guaranteed bank savings accounts. A friend worked for Anglo Irish Bank all of her life has lost £60k in shares she held and a substantial pension.
My post was written to make everyone think, nothing else.
I'm sorry you lost money. I hope you'll get over it and are in a position to put it down to experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
UK Money Transmitters Association
Second Floor, 145-157 St John Street
London EC1V 4PY
0207 635 6634
dominic.thorncroft@ukmta.org
Press Release
Posted: 8th October 2010
Association calls for lessons to be learned following collapse of Crown Currency Exchange
The UKMTA has been concerned to hear of the recent collapse of Crown Currency Exchange which has gone into receivership this week. The closure looks likely to mean thousands of customers will lose the funds which they entrusted to the company for foreign exchange transactions.
Commenting on the situation, Dominic Thorncroft, Chairman of the Association said:
‘We were shocked to hear that this company has gone bust and our sympathies go out to the customers who have lost money. We emphasise that this company was not a member of our Association.
We think it is important generally that consumers should understand that what happened here is highly unusual and was the result of the risky business model which the company had adopted.
We advise that customers should always choose foreign exchange companies which are regulated by the FSA, but additionally customers should opt for companies which hold the money received from clients in an account which has been specifically designated for the purpose.
This is important, because in the event of company collapse, money held in client funds is protected, and must be returned to the customer.
We strongly advise that customers should ask the foreign exchange company about this directly. If customers are not satisfied that client funds are being adequately safeguarded, then they should not use the company.
At present, smaller companies can choose whether or not they are going to safeguard customer funds. Our position is that it should be a mandatory requirement for all services and products offered by FSA regulated payment companies. We have lobbied HM Treasury to put in place the necessary legislative change to make this happen’
ENDS
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Our position is that it [ring fenced client funds] should be a mandatory requirement for all services and products offered by FSA regulated payment companies
|
This has to be the answer, and as someone who knows little of how these things work, I would have (incorrectly) assumed an FSA regulated company had to do this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
i don't wish to be an ar$e but if you think that is the case you should probably stay out of investments
|
| Quote: |
Our position is that it [ring fenced client funds] should be a mandatory requirement for all services and products offered by FSA regulated payment companies
|
If this is the learned opinion of someone in the trade, why should I (again) have the p*** ripped out of me (this time by Arno) for suggesting that this is an area of finance that should indeed be regulated and money protected?
Judging by the fact that some Crown Customers have apparently lost sums of £20,000, £45,000 and £100,000 it would seem that I am not the only one of their customers who - as is somewhat bluntly implied - was as thick as pig s***.
Anyway, I have never been 'in' investments so no need to worry about me there. My hard earned cash is 'invested' in skiing, mountainbiking and travel in general.
| Quote: |
would you give a 100% payment 6 months in advance to a car importer whose showroom you had never visited? |
Must admit....I bought some double glazing recently and took the company's word for it that they were FENSA registered; and I've had a gas fitter round and believed his ad in the yellow pages that he was Gas Safe registered. I'm surprised that some folk on here have time to go skiing as they must spend so much time checking out accounts, directors' credentials etc at Companies House and contacting bodies like the FSA.
IMO, the above is yet another clever s***e quote from yet another who is laughing at others' misfortune. The sympathy is appreciated...For the final time, Crown's Website stated that they were regulated by the FSA.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
mountainaddict, I don't think anyone is laughing at the misfortune (smug & taking the high ground maybe)
I have sympathy for your misfortune, I wouldn't have used them myself but that doesn't invalidate your decision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
mountainaddict, you seem to be under the impression that there is a guarantee for a wide range of investments when there is not. your bank account it the only thing which is guaranteed. there are various ways of seeking compensation if you lose out because you have been mis-sold something but it not a guarantee
the FSA regulates businesses but it does not guarantee their success or solvency
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
mountainaddict, I agree with both your points:-
- Way too many 'Smug before & after the Event' type posts. If those folks know so much I wish they would report 'Bad Business Models' to the authorities before they rip us all off.
- I have no idea what credence to give to anything with the term "FSA" attached. It obviously isn't worth as much as CORGI or other industry standards. A good approach seems to be to trust noone in the Financial Services sector. If Banks are the best bet we have then it says a lot about the rest of them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Agenterre wrote: |
| trust noone in the Financial Services sector |
Best advice ever and applicable to any business run on sale commission
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Stuff like this almost made me want to take Economics at uni rather than Computer Sci. If i had, i'd be earning 6 figures in the City as opposed to wrangling systems for people who earn 6 figures in the City. 
