 Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, I think you'll be disappointed when you get the answer 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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S turns are particularly important, if not vital, in steep terrain. Most people try to get their skis round as quickly as possible because they are frightened, but this is what causes the fall.
I'm a big fan of explanation ...
... and this applies everywhere, not just steep ...
... clears bit of snow with ski, and gets out his pole to draw on it ...
If you make Z turns, at any given point on the turn you need to turn your skis quite a lot, thats difficult.
If you make S turns, at any given point on the turn you don't need to turn your skis very much, thats easy.
So S turns are not only better, they are easier too !
Little Tiger is right that you can use turn radius as well as how far round you come to control your speed.
However short radius curved turns is a pretty skilful performance, and most people will start playing with S's using how far round they come to control their speed.
Skidding (ie rotation & edge control) is probably the fundamental skiing skill. Many people are far too focused on carving - it's just one tool in the toolbox.
With most of my clients I first need to separate their upper & lower bodies (not literaly !) which allows them to improve their skidding skills (ie rotate their legs independantly beneath their bodies).
Only then can we start to play with pressure and making the ski do more of the work (ie pressure & edge control)
However good you are (racers excepted) you are going to spend more time snow-ploughing & side-slipping than you are laying out big carves.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Alan McGregor wrote: |
With most of my clients I first need to separate their upper & lower bodies (not literaly !) which allows them to improve their skidding skills (ie rotate their legs independantly beneath their bodies).
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Yep!
The more skid angle you use, the more counter you have to employ to maintain balance and edge control. When using minor amounts of skid angle, you can ski with pelvis and torso facing almost square to your skis. Conversely, using a big skid angle requires significant amount of counter (pelvis/torso facing away from the direction the skis/feet point, towards the outside of the turn).
Now this part is important! Using a large amount of counter when employing a small skid angle can actually encourage a Z turn. That's because at the end of the turn the counter acts as a loaded spring that strives to twist the skis into a pivoted Z turn the moment the edge engagement of the old turn is ended. It's like a loaded spring that is suddenly released. This is exactly what happens when a skier attempts to always keep their upper body facing down the falline as they turn. The further through the turn they travel, the more counter is developed, the more the spring loads, and the stronger the tendency to pivot the start of the new turn becomes. If trying to do S turns, it's self defeating.
The counter and resultant pivot is OK when done while turning with a large skid angle, because the pivot it produces simply serves to eliminate the skid angle of the previous turn and bring the skis back in line with the direction of travel. The new turn can then begin with the ski pointing the same direction you're actually traveling. That's what you want.
Edit: if anyone is still fuzzy about what a skid angle is, please speak up. Understanding that is crucial to understanding how to go about improving your foundation skiing skills.
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FastMan, I'm reasonably certain I comprehend the skid angle, but I think it will take some practice to incorporate it into the arc of a turn. It will be almost like a slide slip that forms the shape of a turn within its duration I think.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes, Megamum, that's basically it. But understand that skid angle does not represent a singular state. Carving has no skid angle, while wide track steering has a large skid angle. See the difference between a large skid angle (used in wide track steering) and a small skid angle (used in narrow track steering) in the drawing below.
While the turn shapes are exactly the same, the large skid angle turn on the left will result in a slow speed of travel, and the small skid angle turn on the right will result in a much faster speed. Between those two extremes are an unlimited number of skid angle variations that can be used to provide any speed you desire to travel through that same turn shape. As your skid angle skills grow you'll be able to micro manage the skid angle you use, and learn how to change it whenever you desire. The control you have of your skis, and the confidence that control produces, will leap with each incremental step you make in developing your skid angle skill set.
Also, be aware that part of developing skid angle skills is learning to employ various skid angles while executing different types of turn shapes. By turn shapes I mean how sharply you turn (radius),
and how much you turn (degree of turn).
Those turn shape elements (radius and degree of turn) can also be used for speed control, but you don't want to be fully dependent on them for all your speed management needs. Sometimes you'll want to turn, not for speed management purposes, but simply because it's where you want to go. Sometimes terrain or skier traffic dictates a line you must ski, and the shape of the turns you must make. Skid angle skills allow you to ski those desired or mandated lines at any speed you find comfortable.
Yes, learning skid angle skills takes practice, but it's time well spent and efforts well rewarded. Your proficiency and confidence on skis will soar as your skid angle skills grow. Skid angle can be changed at any point during a turn, and when you learn to do that you'll be able to dump speed at the drop of a hat. Knowing you can do that any time your desire provides such a comfort level boost that you'll find yourself skiing faster than you ever have before, simply because you know you can tone it down whenever you want. It's empowering.
Same thing goes for learning to vary your radius and degree of turn. Those too can be changed in an instant, at any point during the turn. Learning how to do that while traveling at speed boosts your confidence and comfort even further.
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Ummm, I think we might be disappearing up our own bottoms in techno babble ! I love it !!
I agree completely with FastMan, but if you are trying to learn this rather than teach it, you run the risk of becoming overly analytical and not relaxing.
The important thing is to be centred (or even forward) on your skis. Most people aren't because they bend their knees but not their ankles (if only that swiss / austrian guy had said Bend Ze Ankles life would have been so much easier).
Weight back is one of the biggest causes of FastMan's spring loaded turns.
There are 3 directions here :-
1) Where you are going, your direction of travel
2) Where your skis are pointing, if you have skid this isn't the same as 1)
3) Where your upper body is pointing, if you have upper lower body separation this isn't the same as 2), and sometimes not the same as 1) !
The difference between 1) & 2) is the skidding thing. Some can be very good depending on the turn etc, lots is very hard to manage and hard work, but above all big fast changes are difficult.
Thats why S turns are easier than Z turns, no big changes.
There is all sorts of techno babble (& top end coaching) talked about the difference between 2) & 3). But for most people, do what is easiest !
If you are doing tight short turns why go to all the effort of turning all your weight backwards & forwards when you don't need to ?
Let your upperbody travel down the fall-line and work just your legs beneath you.
If you are doing big turns, let your skis support you, and everything points in the same direction.
Your skeleton supports you, and all your muscles are aligned, much less effort, its called stacking
Most turns are somewhere in between, and so is your upper body direction.
Before you all jump on me, yes, once you have mastered this, there are all sorts of clever things you can do playing with this.
But as a starting point, this is what it boils down to.
You might detect a recurring theme here - easiest. Skiing isn't difficult, its easier the better you get, and clients learn things quicker if it makes things easier.
Everyone thinks I am very fit, I'm not, I'm a 45 year old smoking alcoholic, I've just got a very very efficient technique & avoid bumps at all costs !
[WRITTEN BEFORE THE EXCELLANT BIT ABOVE WITH PRETTY PICS APPEARED !]
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Alan McGregor, easiski,
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I'm a 45 year old smoking alcoholic
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I'm a 58 year old smoker
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OK i am a 51 year old smoker and at least one bottle of good red tonight
80% of skiing is the mind, the trouble is we all think to much about how we should be skiing or boarding, just go for it and have fun. AsAlan McGregor, says
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you run the risk of becoming overly analytical and not relaxing.
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once we relax and dont think to much! that S turn or that 30 foot drop just seams part of the mountain which is there to be skied and not worried about
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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livetoski, But actually, that doesn't help the nervous individual who reverts to Z turns as soon as they get anxious. Megamum seems to have fallen into the trap of thinking that she must ride the edges of the skis in every turn - hence the question.
No doubt Alan McGregor, has done lots of training in his life to achieve the good technique that allows easy skiing (as have I, and possibly you).
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I went back and looked at Megamum's original post.
We have got very wrapped up in all the technicalities but the original question was psychological and related to having the confidence to ski S's on steeper slopes.
So in answer to the original question ...
If you ski S's on a steep slope you are going to go quite fast at the fall-line.
But we have already established that S turns are easier, and you can already do them on easier slopes,
so you can be confidant that you will be able to bring your speed back down eventualy by gradualy turning up the slope.
Just don't rush it.
As your technique improves you will be able to do tighter S's and hence keep your speed lower, or ski steeper slopes.
But there are always occasions for any skier where gradient / snow / ability / confidence means a Z is actualy more appropriate
S's Z's Side-slipping, Carving etc are all just tools, and part of the skill of skiing is picking the appropriate tool from your toolbox
More tools is good, but you need to know when to use them too
Shame should never enter skiing.
You took a sensible tactical decision in the circumstances.
I doubt you would have enjoyed yourself if you had tried to ski the slope which is after all the whole point
I regularly end up side-slipping down things
There are lots of tricks for skiing more confidently in steeper terrain.
The best solution would be to get a quick 1 hour lesson from a decent instructor.
Alternatively drop me a PM or an email & I will give you some pointers, or maybe start a new post
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, as you say there are nervous and anxious moments all I was trying to say was that these feelings are exactly that feelings which are in the mind, thats why I said 80% of skiing is in the mind.
We all think, we all get nervous, we all feel anxoius what ever level skier we are, that adrenaline rush, after we have skied something which we thought was scary is all part of skiing and what makes us want to go back and do it time and time again.
I have also found that it is to easy to get into the "carve the whole mountain" way of skiing, perhaps new style skis have pushed us into that, I was skiing last season with a group of lads including my son, who were all 30 years younger than me and the carve everything mentallity was very evident with them.
However a very intresting thing happened on a very steep off piste section through the trees, my son (mad skier, dont know where he gets it from!) went first and basically straighted it at mach 2, I went with a cautious old school short swing style with some skidding, and carving mixed in. Afterwards the others in the group asked and wanted to ski with a more old school approach, they had not really seen or done this style of skiing before, and they were all seasonnaires!
I suppose the thing I am trying to get across, is that, the idea of carving everything regardless has become somewhat of a mecca for new schoolers and too many other skiers have fallen into the trap of believing this.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Alan McGregor,
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S's Z's Side-slipping, Carving etc are all just tools, and part of the skill of skiing is picking the appropriate tool from your toolbox
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Totally agree, was still writing when you posted.
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Some people do better with lots of analysis than others - depends on your learning style. Megamum likes lots of analysis and so, for that matter, do I which is why I find Fastman's videos so good.
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You know it makes sense.
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livetoski, No disagreement from me, but ditto to pam w,'s post. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, Yes, I think understanding of what I am trying to achieve helps enormously - there is some excellent material above many thanks to all. If I can build a mental picture of what I am trying to achieve and some ideas that there might be other ways of approaching something that I'm finding difficult this all helps. I totally get the idea of the skidded turn - I've seen lots written about skidded turns, but this is the first time I've actually understood what folks have been going on about. I also think easiski, has spotted something in saying that I feel I ought to riding the edges of the skis all the time during the turn, this made me think about things and I believe she could be correct - when I first got the idea of the skidded turn from FastMan's, pictures I remember thinking how different it was to how I have been trying to turn - it will certainly cut down on the speed which is what I am trying to achieve on the steeper bits. There are some nice wide open cruisey reds in Les Arc's that will be ideal to practice these on, I think it will take a moderate slope to get enough momentum to still keep moving as I am trying to skid the skis. I am also planning a couple of 2 hr private lessons and might ask for some skills to use on the steeper slopes. It's strange, but the blacks in Switzerland have really (well to me at least) steep bits and then the slope just eases off marginally as you go down. All of a sudden I find myself at a point where I am back in the top of the comfort zone and the turns are easier yet the slope difference is sooo marginal its almost no difference at all - isn't that weird? You would have thought if I was confident on the bottom I could be as confident on the top given the marginal difference in slope, but it doesn't happen like that. However, these days at least I will have a go at them so I guess I am getting somewhere.Alan McGregor, you are right it is very psychological and related to having the confidence to ski S's on steeper slopes. For me though the confidence comes as much from lessons and experience as it does from understanding my kit and what I am trying to achieve (I need the whole package), if someone tells me there is a different way of skiing the steeps that might be easier, that will give me to confidence I need to keep trying them - though that approach may, of course, not work for everyone.
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Poster: A snowHead
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N.B. I've just had a thought there must be a touch of what I do to get a 'hockey stop' in a skidded turn, all I need to do is to not put the anchors on at such an acute angle and guide a turn out of it. This also means I'll do them better turning to left than turning to the right 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, Just a question as I find the psychological/emotional aspects of teaching very interesting, do you feel that it is the actual gradient of the slope which causes the problem or standing at the top of a slope where you can see all of the slope down to the bottom? For some people this apprehension/fear can cause problems which results in them being unable to ski as they normally would on more gentle gradients beacuse they can't relax. Effective steering requires your legs to be soft and responsive to movement not braced straight against the snow through fear. It would be interesting to see if you found a steep run which had undulating sections on a little easier to ski, and perfect your S turns on even though the gradient is equal to a piste which normally causes problems?
It might be the case that you do actually need to develop and practice the blending of your technical steering skills (i.e. how much edge you use, how much you skid your skis round the turn etc) for steeper terrain but it is also important to work on tactical decision making, for example your turn radius, how far past the fall line you turn, your choice of line down the slope etc. If skiers feel that they have complete control (i.e. turning exactly where you want, when you want to and travelling at a pace you are happy with and stopping when/where you choose to) confidence improves no end! A good instructor will be able to identify the exact cause of the issue and help you to develop your technical skiing and confidence. With your apparent understanding and determination, I'm sure that you will get there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Megamum wrote: |
| N.B. I've just had a thought there must be a touch of what I do to get a 'hockey stop' in a skidded turn, all I need to do is to not put the anchors on at such an acute angle and guide a turn out of it. This also means I'll do them better turning to left than turning to the right |
Bingo !
More than a touch ! Its exactly the same thing (taken to an extreme), you are controlling skis that are skidding across your direction of travel.
Everybody turns better one way than the other, there are lots of reasons, but fundamentaly people are not symmetrical (physicaly or psychologicaly)
Fear is a catastrophic failure (there is a technical term that I've forgotton) but one minute you are fine, tiny increase in scariness & your confidence collapses.
You then have to bring the scariness back to considerably below the failure point before you get your confidence back again.
This is normal.
Side-slipping excercises are really good, not just for skid angle
Practice side-slipping, straight down at first, then forwards diagonaly, backwards diagonaly, making an S track, varying your speed, with your eyes shut etc etc
All of these will help you gain a feel for controlling a skidded edge
This is the fundamental skiing skill & people don't spend enough time on it.
Try counting your way round each turn.
Say '1 2 3 4 5' as you go round, you should be reaching the fall-line around 3
People tend to rush the first half, this will help give you nice round turns
Feel the pressure in your legs as you do the 'scooshy' last bit of the turn
As soon as this starts to die down, start your next turn
This will help elimate the 'dead' traverse between turns,
giving you nice linked flowing S's
I am sure somebody must have mentioned Bracquage already
Fabulous excercise
You will probably have done all of these when you were making S's on less steep terrain.
There is no reason not to go back to the same drills now the circumstances have changed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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erica2004, No, No, No, I ain't that good LOL I'm happier with red runs and the turns on them than on the steeper stuff - what sort of turns I do lord only knows - they are probably somewhat skidded if that's what beginners would tend towards (I must be doing something to get down them, but I'm certainly not carving them anywhere near consistently (I can carve on a blue though and that's good fun) - sometimes I feel the edges lift and get a carve - then I end up faster than I like and often steer more uphill at the end to slow me down, other times I don't) . However, I do know that my turns on steeper stuff feel far less comfortable, perhaps now I am 'aware' of the notion of a skidded turn I will realise that it is what I am doing on reds and see how I can control it and will now be able to deploy a similar more confident feeling manouvre on a steeper slope. I'll have to get my friendly ski partner to video me next Jan so I can see what I get up to on the steeper stuff - it's a chicken and egg thing, until I know how I'm doing it I won't be able to modify it 
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Sensitivity in the feet and to the edge angle of the skis does need a fair bit of practise.
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I'll say. I find that there are a number of the "edging" exercises which are excellent for doing when you're waiting - for example for someone to stop fiddling around with their ski boots. Side slipping on the top ski is a good one, because you don't go too far off. given the amount of time my OH spends faffing around with his ski boots I should be ace at that exercise by now. Doing the "falling leaf" side slip is another good one, but I can only do that with the weight on the bottom ski. 
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Those long blue path runs that you end up doing to get somewhere are great for playing with your edges.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Alan McGregor, we had one of those that we regularly ran in Les Arc's last year to get back to Rob's place. I knew I had finally got the hang of my big new skis when I could actually ski it. That might sound daft, but to begin with it was that narrow (with an outer edge that you could have crashed off), that I was finding the only comfortable thing to do was to snowplough the entire length as I couldn't find enough room to turn on it. Snowploughing, it was the sort of distance that meant you started to approach the 'legs of steel' needed, but although it looked flat it had sufficient incline that with no turns I started to go way too fast to easily and quickly control the speed within the width of the slope if I met someone aorund the next bend, i.e. stationary skiers, walkers, dogs etc. So to begin with snowploughing seemed the safest option. It took about half the week, but in the finish I started to get the skis on their edges and to control the speed using turns in the process and was really quite pleased with myself. It really bought home to me what a difference the width of a slope makes to your perception of how you can ski it - in the finish last year I encountered a number of really narrow slopes and was quite pleased with the edging I got going on them, almost little short swinging turns and in places it almost felt like bracquage, but with a bit of edging thrown in to control speed.
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Megamum, not actualy what I was thinking of, but a good point none-the-less.
Big fat skis are not always a good thing, quick edge changes (& hence paths) are a nightmare.
On holiday in Chamonix last year I gave up with my powder skis because the paths out were such a nightmare.
I was more thinking of those flatter paths where you just stand there doing nothing.
Don't waste the skiing, play with your edges, good for your carving.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Alan McGregor, My new skis are only 78mm so not really fat - just a bit bigger than the ones I had previously at 68mm. There were lots of long flat paths too in Les Arc's I did start to play with the edges there as well. I found that it did actually help to keep the momentum going as you went along them in that by actively pushing against the edge you could almost get some more speed into things and keep going easier.
N.B. I've just booked for my 'skills on the steep sections' course with Inside Out skiing at HH so that should give me some pointers in September which I'm looking forward to.
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FAQ
