little tiger, yeah thats what i was thinking about, notice how much less counter their is being displayed... (man i wish i could ski like eric guay !!)
Tiffin trying to having the outside hip leading as you execute the turn is real difficult if you are overly flexed at the start of the turn... This was probably why it felt a bit weird and twisty for you.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret, Sorry I still see inside hip drive at transition (and ILE) - they create the counter they need to balance over the outside ski (depends on turn)...
little tiger, yes definitely but to me a lot less shoulder rotation.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
batman123 - yes this is exactly what we were doing on Monday.
FastMan, first two paras - no argument
Third para (counter and pronation) - don't buy that. If I put my left foot on the ground, the main pronation happens just by virtue of my weight falling on it. If I then rotate my right hip forwards, pivoting about my left femur, yes there's a slight forward movement of the CoM, so a slight additional pressure on the forefoot, but the rotation causes a load of eversion and supination which counteracts that. I get a much stronger pronation effect, and loading of that big toe, by moving my whole pelvis diagonally forward and right, holding it square.
Next para (counter and leg extension)
FastMan wrote:
Counter is not the origin of aft. Lack of ankle flexion and knee extension of the outside leg is the origin of aft. If your weight is primarily on your outside foot, and your outside leg is extended, then you can't be aft. The forward pitched design of a ski boot guarantees fore balance if your knee is extended. One of two things was likely happening...or you were not extending your outside leg as you drove your new inside hip forward. I'm guessing the second scenario was the more likely culprit.
You could have a point about the lack of leg extension - and it's something I've been criticised for many times in the past - but I think that is related to the very nature of the counter, which makes me disagree with the first sentence of that quote. When you are countered, your outside hip is necessarily further back relative to your CoM. So if you want to have the CoM balanced over the force vector coming from the ski, your leg and hip have to be behind that line of force - so it actually encouranges a bent leg to avoid an excessive fore balance. This is also accentuated by angulation using a forward bend - your hips are necessarily then even further behind the CoM. You are then having to use core strength to maintain that position in response to any lumps and bumps - an inherently weak position, and one in which jolts will throw you back (BTW: I can hear instructors over the years now laughing like drains as I'm arguing against what I've held for years - my defence is that the application here has changed , so the solution has too).
Next para (Waist Steering) exactly.
Next para (knee angulation) - don't buy most of this. I do loads of skiing on plastic, so know lots about knee angulation - it's probably the biggest criticism of plastic as a surface in that it does encourage it, due to the slower speeds and lack of grip.
Quote:
To prove that fact to yourself, stand up right now and knee angulate. See what happens to your pelvis? It rotates to point to the inside of the turn, just like your angulated knee is doing.
Completely disagree with this. We all agree that the knee is not designed to bend sideways, and if you stand with a perfectly straight knee it (or at least mine) just won't. To get some knee angulation it needs to be a bit bent, then you can get that in-swing by moving the femur and lower leg, rotating in the hip and ankle joints. But as I do this, my pelvis stays exactly square. Driving the outside hip forward and across gets the outside leg to go even straighter and the knee angulates less. There is a tension along the inside of my leg, but that's the adductor muscles being stretched as the upper leg angulates in the hip joint. Further angulation tweaks are provided by lateral bending of the spine (which may or may not be a good thing).
No disagreement that knee angulation is inherently a weaker and riskier movement than hip angulation - but there are occasions when it's the only thing to do - as you say, at the beginning of the turn or as arefinement, or (as happens mostly on plastic) when making low-speed, low-G turns.
Turning to the Ron LeM montages, I think skimottaret may have a point re the shoulder charging, although that's clearly not the whole story. While I agree that there's a load of counter in those of Bode and Hermann, the montage of the Shred looks pretty darned square around the gates to me. In frames 3-5 he gets way more countered than in 1,2,6-8, which I think is very early anticipation of the transition. But turn to some SL shots, here's Anja
It's a shame there're no montages of Julien Lizeroux, as he always strikes me as skiing particularly square and getting great lateral hip angulation. I've never seen a similar montage (or even much slow-mo) from him though, so I could be completely wrong there .
Ah, here are a couple of stills. Don't seem to have any more side-on which is a pity, but that inside foot and shin being pretty much in line with the outside knee doesn't allow much room for countering. I wish I could get into that position :envy: - or maybe more to the point, get back out of it again
GrahamN, the sl shots emphasise my point about counter not being shoulder rotation. The shoulder turns on the GS shots are more tactical . myhrer looks to be recovering not countering cleanly. I am with you on Lizeroux, joy to watch.
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skimottaret wrote:
the sl shots emphasise my point about counter not being shoulder rotation.
Very important.
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After all it is free
david@mediacopy, we agree too much gotta get out for a ski some day!!
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skimottaret,
Quote:
myhrer looks to be recovering not countering cleanly. I am with you on Lizeroux, joy to watch.
looks very recovery especially with the amount of tip lead, but again all depends where the next gate is!
great montages now I know why I get inner knee bruising from my boots!!!!
Quote:
gotta get out for a ski some day
needed an excuse to test some more skis so if your practising this on Monday then I will look out for you all
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
skimottaret, Absolutely
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livetoski, at hemel? i will be on the hill 1 to 8 in a black jacket, say hello!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
FastMan, I think sometimes the GS montages can be misleading to recreational skiers, they see these and think a highly countered position is always a "good" thing that will get them skiing "dynamic". IMO most of the counter in those shots is deliberately done due to the athlete trying to shoulder charge the gate and get as tight as possible line. If you watch the same athlete freeskiing a similar turn shape the amount of counter will be a lot, lot less i would hazard to guess...
skimottaret, certainly the moving of the shoulder forward to slip the gate in a GS course does accentuate the appearance of counter. The origin of authentic counter, though, is in the pelvis. It's the countering of the pelvis that promotes pronation and allows for more effective hip angulation. What the shoulders are doing is less relevant, and in fact counter can be employed in the pelvis while the shoulders stay more square to the skis. That can be a useful suggestion to people who are over countering and getting aft.
I find Giant Slalom actually a better example to point to for recreational skiers because of the greater tendency to use arc to arc transitions in that event. In slalom pivoting is so pervasive it's harder to find clear examples of what I first want them to learn as they strive to refine their carving skills.
You speculated that you would see less counter in the free skiing of World Cup racers. I just so happen to have a good video for you to explore that theory, have a look. While the shoulder turning to avoid the gate is less prominent here, as would be expected, the movement pattern in the pelvis I pointed out in my LeMaster montages earlier (inside hip drive through the transition) is just as present, and the resultant countered pelvis through the turn just as clearly there. Guay makes it especially easy to see, his movements are so smooth, clutter free and precise. Again, to see the counter present, try to stop the video at spots where the skier is to the more to the side of the camera than straight on, then project the lines I explained before, one straight ahead the direction the outside ski is pointing, and one out of the torso in the direction it's pointing. The angle of divergence those two lines display represents the amount of counter present. For the most precision project that torso line right out of their Belly Button. That best reflects the counter state of the pelvis.
Sorry, Hurtle, I know the videos make it harder to see than the montages. People just don't seem to montage free skiing of racers much.
Edit: I see Little Tiger beat me to posting that video. Well done!
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clarky999 wrote:
Quote:
IMO most of the counter in those shots is deliberately done due to the athlete trying to shoulder charge the gate and get as tight as possible line
I was thinking that as well, in the first image of Bode, it looks (to me, anyway) more that he is bringing is shoulder inside the gate rather than countering 'traditionally.' Saying that, the first gate of that sequence looks more like genuine counter.
clarky999, look again. This time ignore the shoulder position, which is necessarily countered slightly more than the pelvis for the purpose of gate avoidance, and focus on projecting the lines I described above, out of outside ski and navel. The image where he's at the blue gate shows about 45 degrees of pelvic counter. Then do the same with Ligety and you'll find the amount of counter is very similar.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FastMan, I don't think anyone would argue that there was no counter present in the montages. The question is whether they got to that point by trying to increase or decrease the amount of counter from what it would otherwise have been.
What works for GrahamN (and me) is to try and reduce it.
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skimottaret,
yes at Hemel if all goes to plan, will say hello, I am in old bright yellow pants and black with red zips jacket, helmet says Snowshepherd if you look close enough.
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FastMan, i dont have time to compose a well thought out reply but I think this is a hugely important topic and poor hip control is a root cause for a lot of problems i see in the late intermediate and early advanced skiers we work with. (some of which are probably reading this thread!)
A little early counter is a good thing for all us rec skiers when trying to carve some turns and anticipation/bigger counter for moguls, steeps etc.
to start with the world cup skiers, they absolutely do have a lot of counter but I think a lot of the counter these guys exhibit is down to the massive edge angles and angulation they achieve along with huge long leg short leg we see. BUT, whe rec skiers try to emulate this they rotate the shoulders and the hips collapse and get weak.
your hip drive ILE move is a good one for advanced skiers but one i would be very very cautious of introducing to the skiers we work with. They typically have lagging outside hips, shoulder swinging and too much counter manifesting in heel pushing and pivoting transitions. Asking them to drive the inner hip forward tends to exasperate this problem on medium radius turns and they rotate the pelvis not drive it down the fall line. We try real hard to square them up on skis before working on early phase 1 functional counter. even so when we first do this they tend to swing and rotate the hips, waist break and lose core and dont have enough flex extend. (not that i am being harsh )
on medium radius turns I try to get them to instead use a strong core waist steering type of move actively extending the new outside leg driving the hips up and forward and keep the outside hip from lagging. more inclination and less angulation.. Interesting to hear that grahamN was working on the same thing recently, i was one of the guys who told him he was overly countered ( and by memory didnt agree ! )
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GrahamN wrote:
batman123 - yes this is exactly what we were doing on Monday.
FastMan, first two paras - no argument
Third para (counter and pronation) - don't buy that. If I put my left foot on the ground, the main pronation happens just by virtue of my weight falling on it. If I then rotate my right hip forwards, pivoting about my left femur, yes there's a slight forward movement of the CoM, so a slight additional pressure on the forefoot, but the rotation causes a load of eversion and supination which counteracts that. I get a much stronger pronation effect, and loading of that big toe, by moving my whole pelvis diagonally forward and right, holding it square.
It seems a strange concept at first that countering the pelvis towards the outside foot should promote pronation, but that's exactly what happens when walking. As you take a step your new lead foot, the foot your stepping onto, is initially aft loaded with the pelvis rotated away from the foot and pressure directed to its little toe side. As your pelvis moves forward, up and over that stance foot, it rotates towards the stance foot (counter) and moves your weight forward on that foot, which acts to pronate the foot, rolling pressure to the big toe side. The same process happens when skiing.
Quote:
When you are countered, your outside hip is necessarily further back relative to your CoM. So if you want to have the CoM balanced over the force vector coming from the ski, your leg and hip have to be behind that line of force - so it actually encouranges a bent leg to avoid an excessive fore balance. This is also accentuated by angulation using a forward bend - your hips are necessarily then even further behind the CoM.
Graham, look at the montages I posted again. Notice that even though they (Ted, Bode, Hermann) are strongly countered and angulated their outside legs are well extended and they're perfectly balanced fore/aft. There always needs to be some flexion in the outside knee. A locked outside leg will indeed put a skier too far forward, whether square or countered, as well as provide for a very bumpy ride, with the leg having no capacity to absorb and react to undulating terrain. Employing counter really does not have an adverse affect on fore/aft balance to any significant degree. By skillfully managing ankle and knee flexion/extension states a skier can execute a turn in any fore/aft balance state they desire while countered. If you were having trouble with getting stuck aft and inside while countering then there was something amiss in what you were doing, and I'm simply encouraging you to sort that out, for your own skill versatility development. I know you're currently really stoked with what you've felt while striving to ski square, I just don't want you to throw the baby out with the bath. It's not a one or the other situation. Counter is a very valuable tool, which as you can see in the montages I've posted is still used extensively on the World Cup. I'd really like to see you sort out the problem you encounter when using it so you too have it in your bag of technical options.
Quote:
To get some knee angulation it needs to be a bit bent, then you can get that in-swing by moving the femur and lower leg, rotating in the hip and ankle joints. But as I do this, my pelvis stays exactly square. Driving the outside hip forward and across gets the outside leg to go even straighter and the knee angulates less. There is a tension along the inside of my leg, but that's the adductor muscles being stretched as the upper leg angulates in the hip joint.
Exactly. that pulling of the adductor you feel is the reason the pelvis naturally wants to rotate with the knee when you knee angulate. It keeps the hip/femur joint in a more relaxed state. When knee angulating, that more relaxed state of pelvis rotating inward with the knees is what the body naturally gravitates towards. Rotating the femur and pelvis to the inside as a unit does not limit the ability to knee angulate. To the contrary, it actually enhances it, because you never stress the range of motion in the joint, you allow it remain more neutral and relaxed.
I remember a number of years ago, in the early days of the shape ski, this square stance theme made a big run in the PSIA world. Suddenly counter was not needed anymore, they thought. The result was a bunch of ski instructors skiing around double knee angulating, in their attempt to stay square to their skis. Hey, they don't ski that fast, so the angulation needed to stay outside ski balanced had to come from somewhere, didn't it? Well, over a decade later now and the WC guys are still using counter, and the instructors here have rediscovered that it does have useful purpose.
As to your montages, yes you have some good examples of less counter there. I didn't use them because they're all pivoted transitions, and pivoting changes the balance equation a bit by introducing a big force spike at the time of engagement that reduces the amount of angulation needed. In more normal situations it's as you say you say; the more square you remain, the more lateral hip angulation is needed in replacement. It's quite impressive the way these top level athletes can assume those laterally angulated positions at such large edge angles. I'd guess it's a position the majority of recreational skiers, especially us old ones, just don't have the physical capacity pull off.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rjs wrote:
FastMan, I don't think anyone would argue that there was no counter present in the montages. The question is whether they got to that point by trying to increase or decrease the amount of counter from what it would otherwise have been.
What works for GrahamN (and me) is to try and reduce it.
That's an interesting question, rjs. Specifically, the "what would otherwise have been" part. That comment/question seems to suggest you believe a natural amount of counter occurs while turning. In a skier possessing a broad skill base to the degree of these guys in the montages, there is really no natural state of counter their body will naturally assume of its own accord during a turn, other than that built into their highly refined movement patterns, the nature of which I'm attempting to point out to the readers here. Ultimately, the skier himself will decide upon how much counter they use, and it will vary from turn to turn, and person to person. There's really no overriding of natural, there's just execution of functional.
Some recreational skiers will have too much counter, or poorly created counter, built into their default skiing, to the point of it being detrimental. For these folks it can be very helpful to move them back towards square and rebuild more functional movements patterns and countered positions.
skimottaret, yes, you did tell me I was overly countered, and yes I didn't agree - so you are one of the instructors I can hear wetting themselves over this . I don't agree with the "more inclination and less angulation" prescription though - that angulation (now laterally at the hips and the waist where necessary) is still required to prevent falling to the inside of the turn and testing the taste of the snow today, something with which I'm all too familiar.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Just to creep into this.... when I was practising pushing the outside (of the turn) hip more forward (something Fastman had told me to try, after we'd been working on angulation) I think I was still countered - certainly still had ITL - but I did feel more strongly planted on that outside ski, maybe because my outside leg was more extended by that effort to get the outside hip up and forward. So combining this with extending the inner leg, I had the feeling of pushing up and then strongly forward onto the outside leg. I probably wasn't really doing very much at all, and less than it felt like, and perhaps all I was achieving was avoiding dropping the outside hip down/back. Which was no doubt what I'd been doing and maybe why Fastman suggested that I focus on feeling that the outside hip was pushing forward. It did feel stronger.
I suppose that what we ought to be aiming at depends on our starting point - and lovely as those montages of the World Cup racers are, it's hard to relate to those edge angles.
GrahamN, i would say more inclination less angulation for medium sized turns at speed not SL in gates where quite a bit is needed... i suffer from too much counter as well so not really laughing too much
pamw i think we are all singing pretty much off the same sheet but it depends as you say what your starting point is and your typical flaws are that you are working to iron out.. some counter is a very good thing indeed, too much in unskilled hands causes more problems than it solves..
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skimottaret, yes it was common theory, good biomechanics lecture by D M. The rest of this post is very good reading.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Dang Internet in my little mountain town here crashed out for a day, so just now getting back to this excellent discussion. I want to respond to this:
skimottaret wrote:
FastMan, i dont have time to compose a well thought out reply but I think this is a hugely important topic and poor hip control is a root cause for a lot of problems i see in the late intermediate and early advanced skiers we work with. (some of which are probably reading this thread!)
A little early counter is a good thing for all us rec skiers when trying to carve some turns and anticipation/bigger counter for moguls, steeps etc.
to start with the world cup skiers, they absolutely do have a lot of counter but I think a lot of the counter these guys exhibit is down to the massive edge angles and angulation they achieve along with huge long leg short leg we see. BUT, whe rec skiers try to emulate this they rotate the shoulders and the hips collapse and get weak.
your hip drive ILE move is a good one for advanced skiers but one i would be very very cautious of introducing to the skiers we work with. They typically have lagging outside hips, shoulder swinging and too much counter manifesting in heel pushing and pivoting transitions. Asking them to drive the inner hip forward tends to exasperate this problem on medium radius turns and they rotate the pelvis not drive it down the fall line. We try real hard to square them up on skis before working on early phase 1 functional counter. even so when we first do this they tend to swing and rotate the hips, waist break and lose core and dont have enough flex extend. (not that i am being harsh )
on medium radius turns I try to get them to instead use a strong core waist steering type of move actively extending the new outside leg driving the hips up and forward and keep the outside hip from lagging. more inclination and less angulation.. Interesting to hear that grahamN was working on the same thing recently, i was one of the guys who told him he was overly countered ( and by memory didnt agree ! )
skimottaret, I very much acknowledge that trying to emulate the degree of counter and anqulation seen in WC skiers can be a self defeating proposition. Just as you say, those guys are employing edge angles most students we're working with are not yet ready to attempt, and thus the amount of counter seen in these montages is not needed by most of our students at the recreational skiing level. But as coaches we do have an obligation to set them on the proper road to aspiring towards larger edge angles at some point down the road.
Successful guiding of students towards functional counter is all dependent on the progression of skill development used. There's a proper time to introduce counter, and a proper manner. The basic edging and balance skills should be first developed. Default pivoting should long be a thing of the past. When the time is right, various rotational states should be explored, while at the same time combining with fore/aft balance. When inside hip drive is mentioned, it should first be a minor movement, and a strong emphasis should be made to focus the movement at the pelvis. Hands on hips works well for that. When done properly, inside hip drive actually promotes edge roll, and discourages any pivoting. Combining it with fore/aft balance nicely avoids any outside hip lagging issues. Combining with lateral balance drills, such as airplanes or the extended pole touch drill nicely avoids any falling inside issues. When presented in this manner the problems you site are easily avoided, and the skier is put on a path towards developing the broad base of rotation and angulation skills they will find valuable to possess down the road.
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FastMan wrote:
When done properly, inside hip drive actually promotes edge roll, and discourages any pivoting.
Prior to and during edge change, so it becomes the new outside hip?
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Pam, thanks for chiming in. Yes, at Les Deux Alps last summer we worked on various states rotational states. We worked on both driving the outside hip forward during the turn (left hip during a right turn), the waist steering version Graham and skimottaret are speaking of here, and driving the inside hip forward (right hip during a right turn), the countered version I've been primarily discussing here. I worked on both versions with you guys, as well as skiing square, to enhance your versatility and awareness, so you'd always know what your doing and how they're skiing, and be able to vary it at will, as desire or need dictates. Getting to that level of skill versatility represents the golden egg I encourage all my students strive for. It provides so much competence and confidence, in any situation and challenge the mountain presents.
Back to our L2A camp, I remember with a big smile Rachel's enthusiastic statement at the end of the day on the deck, the day we first worked on rotational states, "COUNTER ROCKS!!!". She had such a big breakthrough that day when she discovered the power of counter. It was as much fun for me as it was for her.
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rob@rar wrote:
FastMan wrote:
When done properly, inside hip drive actually promotes edge roll, and discourages any pivoting.
Prior to and during edge change, so it becomes the new outside hip?
Sorry for not being clear. Inside hip drive means driving the NEW inside (downhill) hip forward as you transition. It serves to eliminate the counter that was present in the prior turn, and begin to establish the new state of counter that will be used in the coming turn.
It eliminates pivoting for 2 reasons.
1) It makes impossible the rotation pivoting (aggressive upper body twisting in the direction of the new turn) that many skiers do, by requiring the pelvis to rotate in the opposite direction.
2) It naturally unwinds the anticipated position (body facing down the falline) that counter at the end of a turn naturally puts a skier into. That removes the tension from the spring, the power source that during anticipation transitions causes a pivot to happen.
This is why I like starting skiers down their learning journey, especially though the of period of developing basic balance and edging skills, having them ski more square to their skis. During that period they are using very low edge angles, so counter is not yet an important element. Better to square them up so they limit their focus to basic edging/balance skill development. Introduce the rotational stuff later, when the basic skills are in their pocket, and they're ready to move on to more advance skill development.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 12-06-10 20:03; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FastMan, thanks for the clarification, that's what I thought you were talking about but just wanted to make sure.
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FastMan, I've been reading this thread with great interest, but not daring to comment, as it's technical way above my knowledge. But I'd wanted to post to say what a difference it had made to me when you taught us the movement last summer, and now I see you've posted exactly what happened! I was so excited about the way that counter changed my skiing that day, especially when skiing fast - it was so much more stable in the turns - a real light bulb moment for me!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
RachelQ, yep I remember feeling like that... and same feeling when I got the inside hip drive too...
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OK, next round
So I've spent a load of time over the last two days walking up and down and twisting hips one way or another - and I'm even less convinced of your contention that counter aids pronation and (more importantly) edge engagement. I think it's actually a diversion from the main argument, but as it's one you've raised twice so far.... . Yes, you get some counter and pronation in normal gait, but I think you've fallen into the classic fallacy that two correlated activities are also causally related - as there's a load of other stuff going on when we walk. The principal actions seem to me to be 1) fore-aft balance changes 2) lateral movements and 3) countering of the hips. Of those three, it seems to me that the one action that does NOT lead to additional loading of the big-toe area of the foot, and so enhance ski-edge engagement, is the countering. So I walk along using fairly short steps with hands on hips to ensure there's minimal countering of the hips going on. As I move my body weight forward it loads the fore-foot and big toe - clearly not counter-related. If I take larger steps then the hips start countering, to extend the stride length, and yes the big toe gets loaded more, but the body weight has moved much further forward too. If I sidestep, or take up a banana body position such that the hips displace sideways, then the inside of the outside foot gets loaded - a very stong effect, that again is not counter-related. And of course, if the feet are splayed outwards that loading of the inner/medial margin of the foot is greatly exaggerated - but that's not something that we see in skiing, untill we start skating. If I isolate the movements so I just get hip counter, with minimal body weight transfer, the knee rotates slightly to the outside and the fore-foot actually supinates - loading the little toe and the inside of the heel. And that additional pressure on the heel sounds to me as if it actually is contributing to skiing aft.
So no, I don't buy your thesis there at all. Rather than counter resulting in additional edge engagement per se I think this shows counter leads to pronation and additional edge engagement only because of the angulation it allows, but we've already been saying that angulation can be achieved in other ways, and this is not the second independent result you state. That additional engagement is achieved through the hip drive (whether that is inside or outside hip) not the counter.
As for the rest of it, there may be a difference in conclusion largely through a difference in context. About 90% of my piste performance skiing is SL-related (and greatly more where negotiating courses are concerned), and you say that SL tends to result in less counter anyway. I did notice vary similar effects in free-skiing on my more fat-GS-y off-piste skis as well though. The other important points are those regarding the "natural level" of counter (if any), and the level at which active counter-management is introduced. On the subject of "natural counter", gait mechanics seems to come into the argument again. Since we naturally counter when walking, surely there is then a natural tendency to counter when weight is transferred to the outside leg and the inside leg is shortened to allow angulation. As you say, when we start talking about international level athletes, their movements are isolated sufficiently that they may no longer have a natural level, but that would not apply to recreational or lower level trained athletes.
On the level at which counter should be introduced as a significant contributor to performance technique, the sessions at which we were doing this included skiers who would probably ski down to about 200 FIS points (they sometimes include skiers down to about 80), up to decent recreational level skiers. At this level, pretty much everyone felt that this "waist steering" resulted in much better stability. At "normal" recreational levels, the turn forces are sufficiently low that the risks of mismanaged counter are not particularly obvious - I've not noticed much of a problem with countering in my "normal" skiing, although I of course get it wrong from time to time and end up making "less than voluntary close-range tests of the snow quality". As it is certainly more comfortable getting angulation through counter than lateral hip angulation, it's certainly an atttractive option for this type of skiing. At the other end, it may be that with even better performance skiers than we see, reintroduction of deliberate counter allows that next step to be made, as they have the skill to manage the downsides. I think skimottaret's points are well made.
But to cap all that, in the (dry-slope) course we had this morning, the key two gates required such rapid edge changes that there was little else you could do beyond ramming the knees over and let the hips follow as best they could!
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Poster: A snowHead
GrahamN, check out some podiatry/physiotherapy websites... I think you will find it is pretty standard gait mechanics - pelvis does counter with each step... and it is in the phase with the foot pronation occurring as it aids this.
I've shared houses with a few physios and IIRC this is pretty standard. I first heard it from my race coach instructor - who got it from a podiatric surgeon in the USA. (Long story but we were babbling about our dysfunctional feet as well - so I may be confused. Since had it from David M and a few others as well)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
little tiger wrote:
GrahamN, check out some podiatry/physiotherapy websites... I think you will find it is pretty standard gait mechanics - pelvis does counter with each step... and it is in the phase with the foot pronation occurring...
Yes, and I said as much, but I think those are correlated, not causal, which is what FastMan is asserting. I.e. the fact that A and B happen at the same time in a particular context does not imply either 1) that A and B always have to happen together or b) A causes B.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The movements are smaller I think than you are looking for... you are looking for excessive counter - counter only needs to be appropriate... square is NO counter(at all) and is very awkward (well I find it so) as body does not work that way.
GrahamN, one source of the information I'm sharing here about how gait mechanics relate to skiing comes from a high level invitational think tank on ski technique I particpated in about 5 years ago. We delved deeply into the topic.
The main expert on the subject in our group was David McPhail, from the Whistler/Blackcomb area. He'd run extensive tests during the design phase of a new type of ski boot he was working on. During those tests he placed sensors throughout the boot that measured and recorded pressure readings across the sole of the foot (amoung other locations) at every moment through turn and transition. He was not only testing his boot, but simultaneously testing this gait mechanics theory. His test dummy riding the boot and providing the pressure readings was Steve Podborski, one of the most successful of the Crazy Canucks squad.
The readings he collected in those tests consistently supported the contentions I've been making here about the relationship between counter, fore pressure and pronation I've been sharing with people in this thread. I'm always eager to consider and explore new ideas when it comes to ski technique. It's how I happened to end up in that think tank group, and stumble on this valuable bit of learning. Between the scientific readings collected from a world class skier, the extensive studying I've done on gait mechanics, from souces of the sort that little tiger posted for you to inspect, and my own personal sensory observations on snow, I'm for the time quite comfortable in my current beliefs on the subject. Keep exploring though, GrahamN. If you come up with solid and scientifically tested ideas that might add to, or overide, my current understandings on the subject I'll be all ears, and greatful for your contribution to all our educations.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FastMan, there is limited access to McPhails work, which is a real shame, the bird cage experiments were amongst the best biomechanics studies ever done in skiing
GrahamN, and i struggle to go back through this lot to quote the exact post but you said that eversion and supination were happening.... simply not possible, supination is made up of 3 motions inversion, plantarflexion and adduction....pronation is the oposite 3 motions, eversion, dorsiflexion and abduction... the two cannot happen at the same time
FastMan, i dont think we disagree. as you say it is all about how and when you introduce counter and the starting point of the clients. Definitely a good skill to have in the armoury but i tend to see too much counter and this causes a huge amount of problems so i am pretty cautious to introduce it at the level we typically teach.
One problem we also have that you dont have to contend with is when training indoors on a 150 metre steep ish slope it can make introduction of counter drill progressions difficult for clients. It is also tough to demo effectively (for me) the subtle ILE hip drive you mention, I have tried it recently and there was a lot of confusion and they couldnt see what i was trying to do. when i exaggerated it the clients ended up throwing the hips around which i didnt want to see, but this could be down to me as i struggle with hip control myself and probably dont demo this stuff well enough! We definitely work on different forms of counter when in the Alps and we have done full day sessions on early engagement indoors and they focus on the things you mention fore aft, hip control and lateral balance...
I agree with your summary on counter creating some pronation and it is good way to get early early engagement, especially on longer radius turns.
As we have both worked with RachelQ, she is a good example of a strong skier but did have problems with hip control. On our first session she was very hippy and i remember telling her she skied like a "chalet girl" which got her dander up a bit ! in subsequent sessions we have squared her up a bit and she is skiing quite powerfully now and the counter that is present is strong and effective. i am considering asking a few clients permission to show some before and after video for MA and she would be a good candidate....
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
CEM, do you have any links or copies of his work. i looked into a while back and as you say there was little on line...
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret, wish i did ...might be something on epic...i will take a look in the backshop
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
i remember telling her she skied like a "chalet girl" which got her dander up a bit
I wonder why?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
skimottaret wrote:
.... in subsequent sessions we have squared up a bit......
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
- my defence is that the application here has changed 
, so the solution has too).
