Becoming A Ski Instructor

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pam w, lessons might (no idea) be more expensive, but instructor pay is tiny, and it's usually very hard to actually get any hours. A good guide is the more popular the resort to work at, the less the pay will be...

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Can be fairly big differences between resorts too, ie for an Anwarter in St Anton, assuming a full months work, you get 1300 euros ( minus 90 for accomm). In Saalbach, it's around 800 euros (inc accom). That's after tax etc btw.

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slikedges

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clarky999, I've been told the ISIA requirement is 350 hours training for L3 - I assume that includes all the training for the levels below but I haven't worked it out.

The ISIA inspected the BASI courses taking place in Hintertux recently, I think they'll be working their way through the qualifications.

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Mike Pow, out of interest - how many hours can you get at the resorts you've taught at? For reference, I was one of the higher (highest?) priority kids instructors, and the best I could do was 30-32hrs in a 5 day week, which worked out at $1200 a month. When average rent is $500 and a pint $6, breaking even alone is pretty difficult. Is the US cost of living cheaper? My biggest issue with instructing is that it just doesn't work financially - I love it, but I finished this winter (even) poorer than I started - I have to get my CSIA3 to get on the day rate paid ski school products, when it becomes viable. Wondering if this is just a Fernie thing or is everyone's experience similar?

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DaveC, I work in the US, PSIA L2, and so far I've managed to do quite well. The most I can work in a day is 7 hours of teaching and 1 hour of report, but if there's no work then I don't get paid! I work in our adult ski school doing mainly private lessons for all ages from 2 upwards and I think our kids ski school is a little different in that they clock in and out and have more set hours so probably do get more work, especially at the lower levels of certification. This season I worked 96 days, and probably averaged 4 or 5 hours of teaching a day - there were a few days when I didn't get work but that still counted as work days, and some days I was fully booked and worked all 7 days in the week, which would then give me overtime pay. Financially it works for me, but I do know that it doesn't for many others - I don't free ski much because I'm always working, and others do want to ski. Plus the way our ski school is set up means that I get work because of my ranking which is based on request privates, rather than on seniority or certification levels.

After all it is free

I would just like to clarify now that CSIA qualified instructors can get full time work in France. You just need to get your documents from the right people. Also you need to pass the Test Technique. The Canadian 2/3 with a TT is enough to be a stagiere, yes this is not the best money. Working with ESI in Chatel I get paid 29 euros per hour. I am the lowest in the chain at the moment but next season get better priority (I hold BASI and TT), I was managing 22 hours per week at the very end of the season, the final 3 weeks (I had the qualification in December but no paperwork until March so started work in April!). Next season I am expected to work up to 48 hours (sometimes even more) during the half term and new years weeks. For a stagiere its not all that bad, and the ski school is great.

Document wise for those with CSIA you are best to get in touch with the office (DDJS) in the Isere region (based in Grenoble), they are fairly helpful. They can tell you what you need, with a 2/3 you will need a TT then you can work as a Stagiere, I am not sure on rules for the Carte Pro. I expect the Canadian 4 with the Eurotest would be enough to work independently.

Once working independently thats where the money is. My friend at 24 years old this season made almost 25,000 euros in his 5 months. Plenty of the private instructors in Chatel had all the work they wanted/needed this season at their 50 euro per hour rate. The most worked was just over 700 hours, you have to be thinking purely about money to do this though as you have no time at all for your own skiing (tends to be the older instructors who do this)

I know about the CSIA system as my sister has her L3 (she managed first time) and has taught in Japan/America/Switzerland. She would now like to work in France. So soon I should know the rule for the Carte Pro, but I do know about work as a stagiere which with the right school can be great. She will not be going for the TT but for the Eurotest. She considers the TT too hard to pass by comparison and would ideally like to be teaching outside of a ski school.

Just wondering if anybody knows if you can take L4 Canadian exams in Europe anywhere? Also if there is anyone who can provide training catering for these exams?

Ricklovesthepowder, might PM you sometime, not sure how long Im here, off for a season of DH biking soon.

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R555MAC, pretty sure Andorra has a fairly high CSIA contingent but not sure to what level you can train.

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R555MAC, arv, Instructor Academy, Soldeu

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You know it makes sense.

My pleasure.

All lessons in English.

Clients mostly from Australia, NZ, and Chinese and expats living in Hong Kong.

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Great thread and one I'm following with interest.

I've posted thus elsewhere but we are planning to sell up and move out there with me being an instructor and the missus carrying on her uk job remotely.

It seems that if you can keep living costs to a minimum as we are planning to do but using the equity in our house to buy outright, perhaps instructing as a career choice is more viable?

Anyway, as my wife says, 'follow your dream'.

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Mike Pow, thanks for being so candid.

Fernie works like this - you have to show up at 8:45 in case you get a private if you're scheduled on. You get paid for the hours you spend on snow. There's a daily training session that you can go on until 9:45, and the first each week is paid (if you work). Lineup lessons go from 10-12:30 then 13:30 to 4. If you don't get work all day, you get 2 hours standby pay for being at both lineups, but supervisors have to do all they can to avoid paying standby pay. This generally boils down to getting paid 5 hours a day most days for being around and available 8:45-4pm, and a private will often take precedent over a group lesson. I did a 3 day camp, a weekend club (which was 9-4 with the kids all day, so 7hrs paid), and a day usually on privates or daycare if I could blag my way in there (that's also a full day of 7hrs and super easy). $12 an hour, rarely get tipped (recession + lots of brits?), though nearly always after privates with Canadians. Maybe made $400-500 in tips, $1000 a month paid for working 20 days a month on average, as in quiet periods it's hard to maintain 30 hours a week. We could potentially get 10% commission for requests, but actually selling to kids is almost impossible - I did alright, but between Inghams selling most of the lessons for the week on the bus and parents knowing their kid is likely in good hands in Fernie, they don't tend to mind.

Looking at my final paycheque, I made $3500 this season - admittedly missed 4-5 weeks through injury, but it's easy to see why making a living in Fernie is so difficult given I spent $2500 on rent! On the plus side, with my CSIA3 there're some day rate paid courses ($120 a day) that I could eventually get on to, which would mean vaguely respectable paycheques - but right now, I have to temper my love for the place with how little RCR actually pay...

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R555MAC, Off topic, but is Stefan Renard still at ESI Chatel?

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DaveC, do you have CSCF? Know a few people that race coach at the weekends and get paid very well for it. Guaranteed income too (for the duration of whatever programme).

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easiski, there is still a Stephane at the school, not sure what his last name is though. I only just met the rest of the team at the end of the season really. I wasnt sure that I would be working with ESI but got very messed around by the ESF so asked Steve if he would take me on. So just met everybody right at the end of the season and dont know them all that well yet.

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I suspect there's a huge difference between being a driving instructor and a ski instructor. Assuming the OP is a normally competent and experienced driver, the training to become an instructor is going to be a matter of tidying up your own bad habits (like driving with hands below the centre of the wheel, etc etc etc) and learning about how to teach beginners to drive. But a "normally competent" holiday skier (which I would count myself as) is a long way below the standard needed to get a reasonable saleable instructor qualification. You don't have to have a passion for driving to be a driving instructor - and it's a year round job, modestly but fairly reliably paid. But being a ski instructor I do think you need to have a passion, and be prepared to spend a lot of your own time and money getting to the level where you can expect to be paid a modest living wage for just part of the year. In that regard it's very like becoming a full time sailing instructor. I know several people who have made that leap and are now "living their dream" trying to make a living out of sailing. It's hard work and they have to be very good. Not just technically, but socially and business-wise, too.

For someone who just wants to spend more time skiing, being something like an IT contractor would probably be a better bet. I skied with one, on an Inspired to Ski course. He was young, unmarried, so free to come and go. He'd get something like 4 weeks of skiing in each year, between contracts. And all the time he was building his skills and experiences in a well-paid industry which would provide a career until he was ancient. Which, on the whole, ski instructing won't.

I suppose it's different for people brought up in the relevant parts of Austria or France, where their own skiing skills are of a high order anyway, and keen youngsters can train in the local ski clubs every weekend throughout their school days. I think a lot of the highly qualified British instructors have come up the racing route too, haven't they? Honing their skills on dark wet nights on soggy plastic through the years?

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arv, CSCF1, planning on doing my 2 at the start of next year. There're day rated programs for that too, run by an external club - it does pay well, much much better than the mountain's ski school. Just got to get on to teaching the program - I'd likely get a day a week with them for my rookie year coaching. (they can't sponsor either, but I have an open visa brewed up anyway...)

pam w, I have been/am an IT contractor, which was fine (besides the fact it crushed my soul a few times) until the recession - last summer was miserably quiet.

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DaveC, ah cool. Let us know how you get on. Do you ever consider changing resort?

After all it is free

arv, the internal training and people I've got to know in town mean nowhere else really makes sense right now - I've always wanted to go to Japan, so that's my "season after CSIA3/CSCF2" plan. For the moment though, I've just started permanently for a company that I have a lot of time for and basically fit my description of an ideal IT job, so instructing might be on the back burner for a while if I do settle into it. Not sure yet, but 18 months of low income/no income from the worst of the recession/low income have taken their toll. Still love skiing, no regrets, but got to find some financial stability now...

DaveC, if you do settle in there is always Interski for the holidays Wink

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pam w, I think that becoming a driving instructor is also quite hard, just maybe not perceived as being as glamorous as a ski instructor. Nevertheless, just because you can drive doesn't mean you can teach someone else to drive and pass their test. Similarly with skiing it is becoming clearer to me that competency at something does not mean you will be a good/effective teacher. In fact, I believe that the teaching part of being a ski instructor is probably more important than the technique part. How many times have people had poor lessons from instructors who are quite likely to be excellent skiers just bad teachers.

There's a lot of talk with reference to instructors/instructing (on here) about technique but only a little on teaching strategies. How do you get someone to learn, to progress, to go from falling over all the time to being in a snow plough? It does not follow that because you do a perfect plough that they will - a ski instructor will need to be able to transfer the skill in an appropriate and differentiated way to their learners. This is not easy, whatever you're teaching, and no matter how good you are at what you do it's not automatic that you'll be able to show someone else how it's done.

I think anyone wanting to be a ski instructor would be well advised to look not only at their own skiing but also at how they might deliver/cope with teaching. My view is you need to be confident in your ability/skill/technique (or subject area) if you're a teacher, so that you can concentrate on your learners' needs. Your core knowledge of what you are teaching needs to be second nature, that way you can give much more to the lesson and make your learners enjoy the subject and actually progress and learn.

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johnnyh, Totally agreed...

But... To pass the certifications, you need to be a competent skier (During Anwarter (Austrian entry level) I spend the better part of a full day learning to snowplow in style, another day for wedge christies), passing the methodology (what and in what order to teach) and the various background parts in comparisan is relatively easy to pass...

If you manage to get yourself a pretty flexible employer; For example basically a part-time job working fulltime hours in summer, you get lots of time off during winter months... This is more or less how I do it currently. (over 6 weeks on snow, 1 week training, 3 weeks teaching, 2 weeks snowHead

bashes)

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DaveC

The Land of the Rising Sun is calling snowHead

Mike Pow, Do you speak Japanese ?

You know it makes sense.

Basic conversational.

Not needed to instruct where I am. Non-Japanese english speaking clients.

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Mike Pow, cool, Japanese is apparently pretty hard to learn ?

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johnnyh, I think the intense focus on your own skiing allows you to develop a better mechanical understanding to teach it - that's how CSIA aim their development anyway. Discussing how you'd teach stuff is difficult, but the Movement Analysis thread is a good insight into teaching. Discussing technique is actually working on isolating the root of problems too - once you understand those it's pretty easy to address the issue.

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johnnyh, It would be good if driving instructors had to do a lap time around say Donington Park. A 1 min 42 should do the trick, 118% of the current touring car lap record wink

Car control is pretty much ignored in current driver training, which is a pity.

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DaveC, same for the Austrians...

"Discussing how you'd teach stuff is difficult" - Very true, but isn't this about as important as having the technical understanding what happens on a pair of planks, once you intend to teach?

All the technical training and understand may make easy for the instructor to see whats happening, what is wrong, what is right, but its useless if he cannot explain it to a customer in a way the customer can do something with it.

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Someone recently told me that BASI 1 could be converted to CSIA 1 with some paperwork. Can anyone confirm that as I've not found anything from my own research on that one

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david@mediacopy, Toofy Grin

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DaveC, I slightly disagree with you about a mechanical understanding allowing you automatically to be able to teach skiing. Yes, you certainly need the analytical skills (some of which are being displayed in the Movement Analysis thread) but ultimately none of that would make a particularly "effective lesson". By effective I mean that some learning takes place and the learner progresses.

I'm with you completely on the need, at instructor level, to understand the mechanics of the body and the forces at work in skiing. What I would argue, though, is that teaching that appropriately is a *separate* skill altogether.

I'm very much in agreement that instructors would need a high level of technical skill. But there is also a common thought/discussion in teaching about whether you would for example allow David Beckham to teach football since he doesn't have a teaching qualification. Obviously as a practitioner his skill level is not in question but that is not the same as teaching.

I'd be interested to know what ski instructors views are on the imparting knowledge skills vs the being able to ski technically well. I appreciate that demonstration/performance is vital to ski instruction and being able to explain what you did or indeed what others did/did wrong is essential. But I'd also argue that the the process of imparting your knowledge/teaching is also as important on the path the ski instruction.

What do those who are paid to teach think? Is it something which is natural to some and not to others and does it require more work than one might expect?

Ronald, your point is what I think too; in a client focused way an instructor will need to be able to pass on their skills effectively and differentiated for all the skill levels in their group.

How does ski instructor training address this?

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david@mediacopy, My first ski club was run by several driving instructors who had also all qualified as ASSIs. I remember them having trade days at race tracks to try out new cars for work, I would have expected all of them to have been able to put in good lap times.

After all it is free

david@mediacopy; I get your reference to the Eurotest/speed test!!

But as an analogy surely car control at the level of race track driving is not as important as real world driving?

Similarly, fast slalom times would not necessarily equate to a great technical skier who could teach snow plough. I'm biased since I'd probably never pass a Eurotest so I will see it as unrelated test which weeds out older/slower skiers from teaching. I can't see why being older or *slightly* slower would equal bad ski instructor.

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pam w, Plenty of people just potter along at 30 on A roads, the skills needed to go a bit faster are exactly the same as those needed for track driving, the links between performance skiing and racing are just the same.

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Becoming A Ski Instructor

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