 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... could lead to false searches and wasted time only to find a broken cord ... |
I do not think that is a problem. The first search of avalanche debris is with the eye to look for any part of the buried person. The reports I have read often say that some part of the person or their gear was visible. Looking should continue when doing other (ie transceiver) searches. If the searcher finds a cord then they will pull it expecting one end to come free and (hopefully) the victim is on the other end.
It just occurs to me that I have no idea how firmly an avalanche would grip onto a cord. Would it be possible to pull 5m or 10m of cord out of an avalanche? Do people using avalanche cords test the slipperiness of their cords against hard packed snow?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, there is no doubt about it the transceivers/radio systems are def. technology providing the sort of service it should. However, I don't know much about avalanches, but I get the impression that some can be huge and carry skiers hundreds of yards. I also don't know how difficult/hazardous the snow that they result in is for rescuers to clamber over. I guess an ideal system is for something to complement a transceiver - narrowing down the search area by means of a visual clue if the skier is not visible on the surface. Time is important isn't it? I often read the threads about them, if the area is huge, which I assume it can be, then a system that might help narrow down a search area I guess could be helpful. I've done survival at sea training and although the snow doesn't have the fluidity of water or air to spread such material, a large visual clue is often deployed, like smoke, or dye in the water (remember Maverick and Goose in Top Gun in the sea) to help find people. It was with this in mind that I wondered about liquid dye, or even a large quantity of orange/red powder in something breakable. A cord clearly has disadvantages - IMV its not going to be big enough to be found easily in a large area and as I mused earlier could be come detached. However, a colour indicator might help help shave valuable minutes off of the time spent combing a large area with an transceiver, even with a good search pattern.
N.B. I'm just thinking in typing here I was just interested in the concept, and your further information on the range of the technological solution made me think that although it was more than useful it was possibly still not ideal to deal with the, possibly huge area of an avalanche (though I could be wrong - how big could the area be?). Could a system that combined a 'good' visual clue, i.e. more than DG's red cord be useful?
N.B. If anyone now develops the dye/powder system the initial idea is now logged firmly in a thread on the internet with a time and date stamp - now that IS liable to wind DG up  (Sorry DG, but you must know you are target for that sort of comment)
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Megamum, I skied with a bloke 2 years back who got found by his mates buried about 300m down an avalanche track. WIth decent search technique and a single burial, the main delay is now the digging... the bit for which DG I believe said he had never carried a shovel.
Adrian, did you read the article embedded by Davidof above on the history of cords and what actually happened with them? Almost nobody uses a cord these days. I have seen one person skiing with the avalanche ball system. Lots and lots with the ABS - and that is proven to work.
No conspiracy here. Just DGs biannual stir,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| ... the bit for which DG I believe said he had never carried a shovel.... |
Ah, yes, the Goldsmithian dismissal of shovels.
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| There is no inherent duty (in my view) of an independent skier to carry rescue equipment (e.g. shovel, probe) to save another skier if the independent skier doesn't expect reciprocal help. |
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Megamum, Top Gun is merely a slightly rubbish film - it's not real, you know.
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| stoatsbrother Mon 22 Mar, 10 18:08 wrote: |
George W. Bash, funny how you disappear when proven wrong...  |
Only to the extent that I'd vanished up my own .....
..... actually I was at work the Royal Festival Hall (not listening to avalanche chords) when you posted that slightly waspish comment. I'm looking forward to reading the article that davidof has posted here, later this morning. It's good to see the debate being advanced with some fresh sources.
Megamum is quite right to draw attention to lost skis in powder, and the obvious logic of powder tracing leads. Logic would seem to be a useful starting point, plus lots of experimentation to evolve devices that work.
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George W. Bash, Hope it was something nice... I think you should be able to read the article in less than 5 minutes, and see the point about the dangers of cords. Hopefully we can then move on and explore innovation rather than history?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| plus lots of experimentation to evolve devices that work. |
Are you trying to say that the current devices for locating buried victims don't work?
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Nnnnnngggghhhhhhhhhhh. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Nnnnnngggghhhhhhhhhhh. |
Yes, sorry, I shouldn't have bitten. Nothing in this thread adds anything new to a sadly well worn path so pointless to get involved.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle, You might want to take the gag off...
Seriously - I do think this garbage, stated from a point of professed expertise does need challenging. However in future we will just be able to lonk to Davidof's excellent post and let people make their own minds up...
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stoatsbrother, you lonk if you want to. This sH is not for lonking. I know, picking up on typos is naughty - but I really do like the sound of 'lonk' 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I thought of this gent whilst reading that last bit .....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| George W. Bash wrote: |
| plus lots of experimentation to evolve devices that work. |
Are you trying to say that the current devices for locating buried victims don't work? |
No. I'm trying to say that it's best not to close off any option, because they're complementary. The things we know about avalanches are that significant numbers of skiers die, and no preventative or search methods work brilliantly. Speed of search is so important.
Given that one device - the ABS (Avalanche Balloon System) is designed to reduce the chance of burial at all - the assumption of 'burial' could be reduced in the first place, if that device works to some degree. It might be highly effective for all I know. Obviously the first thing is to avoid burial - or avalanche exposure - in the first place.
The Avalung - as claimed - might help somebody breathe and survive under the snow. A transceiver might locate the victim quickly, if it's on, and if the batteries are good, and if other members of the group are skilled at searching (some transceivers just get handed out by guides, with very little training). Wearing a Recco reflector (transponder) could help if a helicopter or Recco-equipped search team turn up.
And an avalanche cord could supplement all or some of the above. In some circumstances, the trace of a red cord might be the first thing discovered, especially in the shocked and confused scene of an avalanche site. For those on a low budget, skiing alone or in a small group and choosing not to expect a lot of rescue, it's one option.
I'd argue that a skier has a right to ski on a low budget, take responsible risks, and use whatever equipment they choose.
I'm not convinced that a cord would coil up around the victim in most cases, and there seems to have been relatively little study, testing and experimentation of cords. Davidof mentions the status of the author of the interesting article posted - I couldn't comment. It seems to be pretty informative, but it suggests that a lot more testing of cords or floating tracer devices could be done.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard, I didn't say it was, but the concept of the dye in the water is a valid observation. Its also linked to why, if you can, you tie orange lift rafts together - to make a bigger 'splodge' of orange in ocean. A large spot of colour in the middle of a different colour is always easier to see. It's why a thin red cord, isn't such a good thing to see.
Back to the anlogy of the lost powder ski on a powder ribbon,. In this instance the idea (as I understand it) is that the skier is linked to the ribbon and can therefore easily find it. The same wouldn't be case if a skier was lost in an avalanche - they would not be tied to their rescuer's in the same way and I think the cord would therefore be difficult to find. Another option is to consider a sound bleeper. How much would snow muffle sound? esp. if not burried deep. I think there are a number of options (with at least as much going for them as a thin piece of red string  ) that could help with physical discovery or to limit a search area (though I take the point that nowadays finding the person may not be the time limiting factor), the dye and high vis powder already suggested, maybe something based on sound (after all the avalanche is already triggered), a smoke source based on a light gas - could it rise through cracks in the snow or does it pack solid? (I've never seen avalanche snow) and I'm sure there are others which could be explored. Another point is does the industry still look for improvements to finding victims now it has technology at its disposal?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, I haven't read any of this thread but your post above so I have only this observation to offer - it's the ski that's linked to the ribbon, not the skier. And the ribbon is usually easy to spot even if the ski has travelled a way and is deep. Frequently you can see the colour in the snow even if the ribbon is not on the surface.
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Yes, the idea of being tied to your skis (either on piste or off it) went right out of vogue when ski brakes became popular in the mid-1970s. It would technically be an advantage for a powder skier to be leashed to his/her skis, but skiers were generally delighted to be rid of leashes because of the danger of injury from a released ski tied to the foot.
Ironically, it seems that some ski areas are insisting on snowboarders being leashed, to avoid runaway boards.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Couldnt resit it, 2 statements I noticed
Some of these people may not have wished to invest in a transceiver......Because they are idiots, not an opion a statement of fact.....
An avalanche victim can potentially be dug out with bare hands.......If is buried about 5cms deep, having dug someone out from a depth of about 1 metre trust me hands are no use at all, a decent sized metal shovel (non of that plastic cr* on the market) and a fair dose of luck are needed.
As for your cord how do you propose to get to end of it, trust me in most circumstances pulling on the bit on surface aint going to help much, it simply wont move. You will spend your vital 10-15 mins digging out the cord not the person you are supposed to be saving, genius idea 
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Yoda, I hadn't realised that, I assumed that one end of the ribbon was tied the ski and the other was attached to the skiers ankle - thanks for the updating that assumption  .
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adie, on the hands thing you're obviously right in the vast majority of cases. I used the word "potentially", but it would have been better not to have said it.
As for the cord, if you're visually surveying a wide debris scene then a short section of visible cord could be very valuable in narrowing the search. I'm suggesting that it could only have supplementary value to using a transceiver. I've not done a transceiver search for some years, but it takes a while to get bearings on a large field of debris.
On your last point, no, you don't want to be digging out the cord rather than the victim, but if the cord says you are 3m from the victim you will know that this is a maximum distance (if the cord's bunched up it could be a lot less, but it could never be more).
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| but if the cord says you are 3m from the victim you will know that this is a maximum distance (if the cord's bunched up it could be a lot less, but it could never be more). |
Avalanche probe
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A popular Fleet Street word, but probably best avoided for avalanche stories e.g.
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| Government launches probe into avalanche disaster |
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Fatbob
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George W. Bash wrote:
Avalanche cords disappeared from manufacture/sale for no clear reason.
International conspiracy. See also 9/11, death of Princess Di etc.
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In fact I think you'll probably find they were withdrawn after 3 skiers were strangled by a prematurely released Avalanche cord, high in the Andes, in 1993.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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An avalanche cord is not 'released' as such. It would be interesting to know more about this, as I've not heard about it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| Megamum, I haven't read any of this thread but your post above so I have only this observation to offer - it's the ski that's linked to the ribbon, not the skier. |
Risk of confusion here. A ribbon attached to ski binding and stuffed up the trouser leg was (and maybe still is for some) a device to help locate a lost ski in deep powder but, as far as I remember, yer actual traditional avalanche cord was tied around your waist and literally trailed behind waiting for the inevitable. Red wouldn't go with anything I own so it's a no no for me.
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| Quote: |
In fact I think you'll probably find they were withdrawn after 3 skiers were strangled by a prematurely released Avalanche cord, high in the Andes, in 1993.
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Didn't their mates eat them?
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You know it makes sense.
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No - that was a plane crash, Swiller. Similar to an avalanche in some ways, but it involves a plane.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's not going to work, you can come up with what if's and maybe's until the cows come home, and guess what if my uncle had "tits" he would be my aunt.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| .....Rocker skis - what a joke. |
Maybe not, from what spyderjon who has skied them has told me. There was an occsion in deep powder on a shallow-ish run when my Missions had to be unnaturally weighted backwards, otherwise the ski shovels dug in. I suspect following discussion with spyderjon, and looking over his rocker skis in his workshop, that they would solve the rear weighting problem. So although I don't have a killer reason to change my skis (generally the Missions are fine, including in deep powder) I am inclined to believe that rocker skis may work. Of course, I gained my impression talking to a skier who has skied a lot in deep powder this season, and has rocker skis. OTOH, if you can tell us about your similar experience this season, and explain why rocker skis were not a benefit you, it will be a fascinating read.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 31-03-10 14:48; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
Skiing has a habit of dumping simple elegant solutions to problems (rear-entry boots, one-piece skisuits and monoskis are other concepts that don't currently fit the 'fashion doctrine') because there's something more expensive or new to promote.
Rocker skis - what a joke. |
I fear you're betraying your generational attitudes here. I would guess that its very little to do with "fashion" that your "simple elegant solutions" have been dropped but more to do with basic functionality e.g. rear entry boots do not afford the same degree of control as a modern overlap boot, fartbags are practical at keeping snow out but impractical for layering/toliet stops etc, monos are very difficult to ski competently. Ironically the most "fashion" influenced have adopted some of these things e.g. Analog's hideous fartbag collection and there is nothing more hipster in the US than to shred lines on a vintage Look monoski with SX91 boots.
I'd suggest you try rocker skis before you express a technical view on them.
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There's been a lot of deletion of earlier posts today, so the Dubbya quotes above have lost their context. However ...
Rocker skis are a joke, because skis aren't supposed to be bent. A bent ski used to be regarded as a damaged ski. Now they are sold at a premium price - such is the cynicism of the ski industry, with engineering replaced by marketing. If you want stability, don't buy flappers. If you want versatility, don't buy flappers (or fat skis, for that matter).
And long skis truck, short skis suck.
The recent spectacle of the Olympics was marred by athletes using cropped skis, performing unimpressive turns with no style. Slalom's been turned (sic) from a sport of elegance and precision into a thrash/burn contest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
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I'm launching a range of variable geometry[PATPEND] skis next season. Rocker for blower (I always thought that was okey-doke but I'm told by the gnarly dudes of TGR that is means deep and light powder), straight for steep chutes (that's a couloir to you and me) and shaped for the groomers (erm pistes).
They will have fully integrated ski boots called the FISK[tm] system.
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There's been a lot of deletion of earlier posts today, so the Dubbya quotes above have lost their context.
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Don't worry I doubt it will detract much from this thread.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 31-03-10 15:24; edited 2 times in total
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| Quote: |
skis aren't supposed to be bent
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Says whom? Those particular skis are clearly supposed to be bent, since they're deliberately made that way.
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long skis truck, short skis suck.
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*Yawn* Gosh, are you still with us, Grandad? Amazing.
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| Quote: |
skis aren't supposed to be bent.
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Never seen a straight ski in my skiing life (25 years) when were skis unbent?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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He's standing on them?
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FAQ
xxx
