 Poster: A snowHead
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Bernard Condon, A valid point, and I wonder how the French (for example) would cope given their track record with recognising the international qualifications of ski instructors? Would they be handing out nursery slope passes to those who happened to learn to ski/get assessed in another country?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowbunny, not if they wanted the custom (which of course they would). For the same reason, the scheme would have to be launched everywhere at once, because there will be loads of people who wouldn't want to take the tests, either because they feared failing or because they considered it an affront or a waste of time. Policing is the way to go, because launched locally or nationally, it would attract as many people as it would repel.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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D G Orf, Agreed. It was a 'Light-Bulb Idea'! After mature reflection, I believe that it would be a very cumbersome tool. Just as a question though - Does piste safety and skier responsibility on the slopes, form any part of Ski instruction in resorts?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Does piste safety and skier responsibility on the slopes, form any part of Ski instruction in resorts?
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It should do, but most of the time these days seems to be spent getting skiers to carve at which point most of them no longer want to pay for lessons
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agree with DG Orf's comments about forcing the long term law abiding to prove they are law abiding.... madness.
Can i remind folk that even with a mandatory full vehicle and driver registration regime in place, here in the UK, we still have dreadful cases of reckless drivers who dont even have a licence or a registed and insured car killing people through bad driving. They steal or use a banger. Enforecement is never ever 100% in coverage, either geographically or over time. You cant legislate behaviour out of existence.
I'm afraid its up to us, people on the piste, to address/confront/get-along-side-of those skiing or riding dangerously. Its a community on a mountain. When we leave it to others to enforce, skipatrols or pistepolice, we loose something. Sharing some of our values (good ski guide) technique and skills with teenage tearaways may one day prevent an accident. I've encountered people out of control - beginners out of their depth up a too severe piste, people heading unaware towards hazard - and offered them some help.
Watch for the insurers to drive any code of conduct/access to mountain equation.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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SussexSnow, I agree with your comments, but in addition to 'Self-Monitoring', it must surely be worth having some sort of a 'Safety Induction' for skiers & boarders etc. Most Piste Maps carry a 10 point 'Rules of Behaviour', but I imagine very few actually read them. None I have seen actually mention consumption of alcohol! I reiterate my point, that a good deal of dangerous behaviour is through ignorance - there will always be the reckless/nutters either on road or mountain that have absolutely no respect for others, but I believe that a simple safety plan would greatly reduce unsafe behaviour. But how to do it in a simple but effective fashion???
On restaurant place mats? In cars, gondolas, etc. Where are the marketing people??
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SussexSnow, Bernard Condon,
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Enforecement is never ever 100% in coverage, either geographically or over time. You cant legislate behaviour out of existence.
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True, and I thoroughly agree with your points about education for self-regulation on the slopes.
But I'm not clear what position you're coming from on this, as it looks like you're intending to say that there's no real benefit in state enforced safety proceedures so why bother with legislating for it. (ignore the rest of this if I misunderstood your posts). That position defies logic. Sure, no legislation is ever implimented perfectly in all places all the time, but enforcement of safety proceedures certainly does reduce the level of risk and harm caused. Are you really saying it's possible to acheive the same end solely by relying on education? 
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Manda, I am certainly not saying that education is the sole tool. I am a bit of a cynic and living in the world that we do, I do honestly believe that an enforced, legislated piste policing system, Europe-wide is not going to happen anytime soon. I have a feeling that the resistance to this would be discreet, but immense. The current 'losses' are acceptable, just like those actuarial loss predictions for rail, road and air travel. I do stand to be corrected!!
The 'Education' tool is an easy option, if you like, but if implemented with some enthusiasm, I feel that it could make a big difference to the majority of piste users, in the long run, especially if it is implemented at the ski-learning stage, along with other more subtle promotions, like the suggestion of safety induction on restaurant place mats.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think a lot of us are wasting time here thinking of education, enforced and legislated piste policing system.
To use a piste there are conduct rules. Many skiing map has conduct rules already printed on the back or the front. If they are not printed the rules will be prominently on display at every ticket office or at scattered around the information boards in the mountains.
I have checked and found the following ski maps of Verbier, Chamonix, Megeve, Flaine, Tignes/Val D'Isere, Les 2 Alpes and Courmayeur listing the standard 10 conduct rules with the first 2 being
Rule (1) Respect for others - A skier must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others.
Rule (2) Control of speed and skiing - All slope users must adopt the speed & behaviour to their personal capabilities and to the prevailing conditions of terrain, snow and weather as welll as to the density of the traffic.
Any piste user who is concerned about his/her own safety would have read the conduct rules for using a piste. Endangering someone's life is a complete disregard of the first conduct rule.
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saikee, the problem is that many of the unsafe skiers seem to either be incapable of reading or feel that they have some sort of diplomatic imunity when it comes to obeying the rules, what is needed are a few more people to be banned from the slopes (widely publisised) for breaking those rules, if people heard of a rash of such bannings taking place across the alps it ought to have a noticeable effect on the poor performers
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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saikee, I think we are all in agreement that there are 'rules' , wrtten, or unwritten - I have already mentioned the 10-point rules on piste maps. It would appear obvious that they are ineffective - the question is how to 'improve' behaviour on the slopes. I have suggested education, as I feel that it is unlikely that a full piste police system will be introduced. Do you have any ideas?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Education in their first lesson is what's needed with repeated reminders and questions during teaching, coupled with the public humiliation (being caught having lift pass removed) for the most dangerous/reckless of the offenders in resorts
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Bernard Condon,
Personally I think if the ski map is to be handed out to a skier purchasing a ski pass the cashier can remind the purchaser of the conduct rules, in a similar way he/she remind the need of personal accident insurance, then the conduct rules will be much easier to spread around and enforced. The conduct rules and the insurance can be made related too. Although I have no connection with the legal system I would have thought in the current case the victim has a valid claim against the snowboarder by basing just on the snowboarder's noncompliance of resort's published guide lines. At the very least the legal system can take its course by the law enforcement agency as it is done at the moment. In the current case the culprit is in N America and I am not sure how their conduct rules work though.
It appear to me the conduct rules, which appears to be standard throughout the big resorts in France and parts in Switzerland, are common good practice for the skiers and can act as the potential catalyst for claims against personal injuries suffered from behaviour that can be identified as a deviation from the common good skiing practice. If a resort is seen to facilitate a few of such claims through then I would certainly have more confidence to go there knowing the system is being implemented and enforced and therefore a safer place to ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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Manda
I work as a civil servant and see both sides of the regulation fence.
As a 'outdoor enthusiast' I read about the potential creeping regulation of our private lives - this debate is evidence. I also recall the dreaful leisure pursuits accidents like the Lyme Bay tradegy. However, I also remember that a rather wild PE teacher enthused us to learn to ski, to go up Saturday after Saturday to Glen Shee, Cairngorm etc and instilled a passion for the sport. Would he be allowed to do it today? He was a qualifed teacher and PE teacher. Didn't have BASI, no one mentioned insurance....., parental slips - perhaps a purple roneo copy?
As a civil servant I see our attempts to regulate. It's taken say 50 years to develop the systems and processes that make driving regulated. It probably does improve road safety as it affects 28m vehicles and 50m motorists. But it doesn't prevent all accidents. The issue is proportionality. 20% of the population are active in wintersports in the UK. They are active mostly abroad, in other legislative domains. It's bad enough trying to regulate a majority behaviour like driving in our own country let alone a minority puriuit mostly conducted often in someone elses. Politicians are more interested in regulating other stuff
Saikee's point about the 'conduct rules' acting as a catalyst for insurance actions, talks to my point about the potential power of the insurers. When they put there mind to it they can influence behaviour - Thatcham Alarms, higher premiums for young drivers..... At somepoint in the winter sports industry there will be a move by resort insurers first, to make it safer.
Really enjoyed the discussion, everyone. Thank you all for contributing.
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