 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Megamum,as I've tried, but obviously failed, to make clear, I'm not really interested in grading, but rather in a disciplined/regulated framework for achieving gradual progress. So far as grading is concerned, I think it's a pretty simple matter to address the grading system of whoever is teaching you and fitting yourself in accordingly. It doesn't need to be a super-exact science. Thus I know more or less where I stand in Rob and Scott's grading system, and also in that of Inspired to Ski, with whom I also take lessons. That seems to suffice and, frankly, it doesn't matter if I get it wrong, they'll make their own assessment of my ability in any event.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| ... And there's the rub, there is in reality no easy fix. ... As a relatively late-starting skier, with limited access to snow...it doesn't really compute. |
Easy fix here - the secret to skiing. You heard it from me first. Or maybe second. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
slikedges, that's a very understated sort of brochure. Should I have heard of these people?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yoda, no just a phantom in your mind
Hurtle, now don't tell me you missed this short but sweet little gem? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
slikedges, ah, the eccentric Mr gravystuffing! I did boggle briefly at that thread, but had forgotten he had undergone his Damascene moment with the chap in Val d'Isere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
I don't think you can sensibly bracket Harold Harb with those "90% of first time skiers never ski again" guys. They sound seriously demented. And they don't seem to have done Mr Gravystuffing a power of good. Has anyone skied with them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
If i read this right hurtle was looking for a definative set of tests to perform to determine a skills "level" as opposed to a self check like SCGB, Snow and ROck etc... Yes we have a level system and to be honest it is mainly there just to avoid having groups of wildly varying standards being put together. For us indoors we really only need to know if the client is able to ski the main slope without killing themselves. levels are useful in the mountains for terrain selection and setting groups together but past that not of much use to the individual... why worry if you are a silver purple plus double whatsit.....
There are skiing skills tests out there but mainly aimed at racing and team selection criteria. Husky snowstars is the CSCF canadian version for clubs to track athlete progress, Snowlife awards in the UK are being revised to be a bit more higher level and there are national team selection tests.
Hurtle, if you want we can put you all through some drills i have developed for ski MK race team skiing skills awards. We dont "rank" people with this (the clock does that for us very well) but the drills are set to to address most aspect of skiing skills and performance is subjectively graded (by me) on a 1-6 scale. a total is given and we use this to determine individual progress and overall group weaknesses to be addressed.
there is one measured test i really like which is a timed skate. I can pretty much rank a ski racers results by this test.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| as opposed to a self check like SCGB, Snow and ROck etc... |
No, if you ski with an SCGB rep you get graded (at the end of SCGB holidays you are given a piece of paper with your grade on). However this is quite subjective based on seeing you ski and is separate from the tests for Bronze, Silver and Gold badges which are formal tests. The first two can be done by any Club Rep, but in practice they have now given up doing the Gold tests since it was so hard to get the two gold judges needed for the quite time consuming tests (about a half day each of (a) piste, including moguls (b) powder (c) variable snow - including heavy snow and breakable crust. Plus also (d) a race - normally the Fleche).
It is only if you want to go on a holiday but have never found out your standard that self-judging comes into it (and most people over-grade themselves).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 24-11-09 12:51; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowball, thanks I stand corrected !
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| snowball wrote: |
and most people over-grade themselves
|
I managed to undergrade myself, and I was quite pleased with the uplift at the end of the trip.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
there is one measured test i really like which is a timed skate. I can pretty much rank a ski racers results by this test.
|
 how interesting. Does skating ability translate into general skiing ability then?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
under a new name, not really thought about it before, but it makes sense: as it requires balance, coordination and dynamic strength - that's about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
DaddyLouLou, Ah, modesty rewarded for a change!
In my experience it is most often female skiers who under-grade themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
Does skating ability translate into general skiing ability then?
|
certainly does in my amateur book. I well remember watching an ESF instructor, from a chairlift. He was skating uphill carrying a huge pile of slalom poles. Deeply impressive. Watch an instructor on a flat "ski nursery" area, skating apparently effortlessly from toddler to toddler, with no poles.
I can skate a bit - limited in part by my lack of dynamic strength and cardio-vascular fitness as well as technique - and have found that my ability to skate has improved as my general skiing has improved. Conversely, people who can't skate on skis, even on the flat, generally seem to be pretty weak skiers.
Those cross country skiers who skate, of course, have the most superb
| Quote: |
balance, coordination and dynamic strength
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| levels are useful in the mountains for terrain selection and setting groups together but past that not of much use to the individual... why worry if you are a silver purple plus double whatsit..... |
I think we probably rehearsed most of the arguments in that thread from years ago, but don't dismiss the importance of those two uses. If you're planning on joining a group intending to undertake some particular task, it's very important to know that that task is within your capabilities. Otherwise you waste your own time and money, and that of the others in the group you're holding back - to say nothing of the safety issues. If you undertake a route that has a descent down a cliff through a 3m wide 50 degree couloir, or have a 300m 40 degree icy slope with a gaping crevasse at its bottom (e.g. the Grand Envers) then it's probably important to know you have the skills to manage it - and also important to be able to assure the guide who's taking you there that you can do it as well.
For personal development it's also useful to be able to see progress. Whenever you're in a learning environment, particularly if extending over a long period, it's very easy to see what you can't do, as that's what's in the moment, but you tend to forget what you've mastered. Hence the analogy with the AB music exams: you know that you have to be able to do single hand scales at level X but scales in contrary motion at level Y, or double-stopping or whatever. There's something similar for the BASI instructor ladder, and racers have seed points, but there's not a lot (or actually rather too much: too many schemes, and the levels too ill-defined) for recreational skiers. Maybe this snowawards scheme could become that - but it's only really of use if everyone works to the same scheme.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
If i read this right hurtle was looking for a definative set of tests to perform to determine a skills "level" as opposed to a self check like SCGB, Snow and ROck etc...
|
No, levels are what I was precisely NOT looking for, but never mind! See my post in reply to Megamum at 23.03 yesterday, which may or may not make sense. I don't really care about levels for their own sake, it's more a question of taking a graduated approach to my learning, as opposed to 'scattergun' lessons here or there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hurtle, in your original post you asked "(I) was wondering if there were any tests/exams one could do in this country just to measure skiing ability?" In your 23.03 post you say "I'm not really interested in grading, but rather in a disciplined/regulated framework for achieving gradual progress".
Are you able to articulate (I'm sure that you are!) what your inner vision of "skiing ability" is, and give us any pointers as to how it could be measured
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cathy,
Give him a break - he's from Texas!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
beanie1
a rather delayed thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Hurtle, bear in mind that all instructor qualifications start with a higher base level of skill than 0.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yoda, a good post - one that resonates with me! I'm very aware that although my technical skills may be improving through instruction at Hemel, will this actually translate to out on the real mountain, where one of my hang-ups is confidence on steep slopes  I'm hoping that the overall improvement in confidence and technique will help - but we'll see!
I also think that the videos that Rob and Scott do at Hemel are really useful, especially as I have them at home on my computer and I can see for myself the difference in my skiing - and my faults....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
will this actually translate to out on the real mountain
|
YES
| Quote: |
| confidence on steep slopes |
is best addressed by getting a solid foundation of skills on easier terrain. You managed some quite difficult athletic drills this week on a blue gradient at hemel that with practice will transfer into tougher conditions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
cathy, yes as skimottaret says a solid foundation will serve you well and will give you the confidence to tackle steep slopes, slush, powder, bumps and all the other stuff that gives people trouble out on the mountain, so you can practice in those conditions. I'm just trying to understand where Hurtle is coming from with this "grading" idea. To use another analogy, I knew folk who got a 1st Class first degree in Chemistry but were totally useless when it came to the practical skills required for a "hands on" PhD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Hurtle, One of the games I used to play with my instructors was "how long does it take us to ski the run" We had a route that included a run through trees with bumps and tight turns, exit from there to cat-track, exit cat-track to main slope, duck into race course area,run down besides race course(or round gates if any were set and not used), short turns down next short steep section, skate around bottom of lift, jump into private lesson short cut, get on chair...
Instructor had the lap time for this run with me in tow timed... Each week and year I would decrease my time to ski this run - the lift ran pretty consistently unless windy - so we could even average 4-5 runs... My instructor would report my progress back as a speed increase over the previous lap time I held... Not my idea as I dislike speed but it did nicely measure my improvement as I needed to keep the speed up in flatter areas and maintain consistency down the tree run (once described by my friend as "an icy luge") so as not to ruin time for the run... As we always altered turn shapes through the terrain changes it measured all round ability nicely...
I really tended to just pick quite short term goals mostly with a couple of longer term usually set with my instructors helping me... it was kind of fun picking them off through the seasons
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Yoda,
| Quote: |
I'm just trying to understand where Hurtle is coming from with this "grading" idea.
|
As I said
| Quote: |
| I don't really care about levels for their own sake, it's more a question of taking a graduated approach to my learning, as opposed to 'scattergun' lessons here or there. |
little tiger,
| Quote: |
I really tended to just pick quite short term goals mostly with a couple of longer term usually set with my instructors helping me... it was kind of fun picking them off through the seasons
|
Excellent idea. That's probably the best answer - but, equally, tests/exams are quite good for the less disciplined or self-motivated amongst us. I didn't have to do music exams, and of course they didn't of themselves make me a great pianist, but I found them a handy framework within which to progress, as I picked off the Grades one by one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
there is one measured test i really like which is a timed skate. I can pretty much rank a ski racers results by this test.
|
how interesting. Does skating ability translate into general skiing ability then? |
I think I'd probably throw that one off. A combination of having skated a fair amount as a kid and wrist issues meaning that poling has always been to be avoided where possible means that I am a lot faster than my OH when I skate on the flat. That way I don't have to pole, which puts unnecessary strain on my dodgy wrist! I've skied 2 winter weeks (+ 1 week in summer, while being scared of everything and unable to keep my boots done up for more than 30 minutes so not doing too well!), OH has skied about 6 weeks or so and is happy on any piste (including moguls smaller than the size of a car). He looks workmanlike without being effortlessly elegant as he's not had a huge amount of lessons. I can get down most reds and some blacks (prefer steeper and wide to narrow) so long as there are no moguls, but have a hint of a stem if I don't concentrate on avoiding it, and a big wuss about going fast.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I've never played tennis nor piano so I'm not sure if the grading system they have help produce better players or not. One of my girl friend played tennis for a few years before attempting to get a first time grading. As suspected, the grade was not at all flattering, having missed some basic skills that are rarely used in actual game playing.  Basically, she can beat a lot of the higher ranked players! So it begs the question of who's the "better" player?
Having said all that, I can see Hurtle's point. It's a great motivator to have a long list of set goals to work towards. Especially a set of specific skills, one more difficult than the previous ones, to accomplish one by one.
Myself for example, I can ski comfortably off-piste, as long as it's not overly steep and narrow, or full of car size moguls. But I'm terrified when I found myself sliding backwards, a simple skill that could be a lot of fun and useful in tight spots. Others I saw as otherwise pretty accomplished skiers who refuse to jump a 2 foot drop (hip height)! So I think a list of set skills to be examed and passed could be a fairly fun and useful thing to do, which in the end do produces a reasonably well-rounded skier, if not on the way to world championship.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
) The teaching stuff eg for BASI, seems to work in a normal graded fashion ie by ratcheting up the requirements gradually through the levels ie just like music exams. I was simply wondering whether there was the same sort of thing available minus the teaching aspect. That's all.
