 Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1, and the fact that you can carry on in the BASI system and get an ISIA stamp if you want would make it preferable 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowqueen11 wrote: |
CSIA Level 1 is an on snow qualification, so mountain awareness, group management etc is covered. Insurance for CSIA Level 1 (and the other levels) state you must only teach to the level you are qualified to teach, which with CSIA Level 1 is up to parallel skiers onsnow.
BASI Level 1 is not an onsnow qualification, so mountain awareness etc isn't part of the syllabus. The two level 1 qualifications are not exactly parallel. If you think about it this way, in Britain, we need an entry level snowdome-type qualification, which is the BASI level 1. In Canada and other snow nations, they need an entry level qualification so that instructors can teach up to an intermediate level, hence their level 1 standard.
If under a CSIA level 1 licence I taught off piste, or something like that, and an accident happened, I expect the insurance company would tell me I wasn't covered as it wasn't intermediate skiing. |
I know plenty of intermediates ski off piste in Canada/USA/Australia ... you forget those countries have resorts with INBOUNDS off piste... It is quite common for folks with only a few days skiing to do introductory off-piste... a few turns maybe or a run through trees... It is a well known teaching strategy to get kids parallel - ski them in a tree run with bumps and tight turns - they close the wedge pretty naturally as they repeat and get comfortable... Sorry - I know instructor trainers who teach instructors to do just this with both beginners and adults... That is a poor example...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would really like to do one of these courses, not even really with the intention of becoming a teacher - perversely enough - just to say I'd done it!
I taught my other half, and she turned out alright 
Who said 'better than you'? Shut up.
I've done about 10 weeks I think. Maybe that's not quite enough...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| RobW, correct, but it depends where you are teaching. Some countries have NO requirements for certification and anyone can get hired, any qualification is seen as better than none and L1's will get jobs in hiring clinics. there are certainly L1's working in the mountains in Switzerland & Australia. |
Australians have to either pass hiring clinic test or an entry level exam...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, what do you mean by they're only recognised in their home countries? Where are you referring to when you say unscrupulous employers? For instance, I don't think there's a requirement for any certification at all in Switzerland, but do you know if in Austria and Australia there is a requirement for at least BASI Level 2? Or are you referring to the insurance provided by the instructor association provided under the certification?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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slikedges, sorry that was a bit of a sweeping statement that's not entirely accurate... CSIA 1 for example would be accepted in the UK on artificial slopes.
I did point out in my original post that countries which have no specific requirement for any certification would accept both (on re-reading it realise it may not have been clear - by "those" I meant to say "those countries"!). An unscrupulous employer would be one who claims they are giving their clients a qualified insutructor when in fact with a BASI L1 they would not be qualified to teach in the mountains. Or an employer who operates in an area where there is a minimum level of certification required. I've seen both.
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curious on this as well as slikedges,
my understanding is that you only need L2 to teach in ski schools (if you wish to be covered by public liability insurance through BASI)
If you want to work as an instructor and be covered through local ski schools it depends on local laws and there may be no legal requirement (swiss, USA Aus etc) and others have additional demands (italy AVMS test, France Test technique)
What i am wondering is if you go out with a group (say an L2 on a snowheads tour to Austria) and do paid for teaching are you covered by BASI liability insurance, cant see why not.
My understanding is that if you travel out and back with a group you can teach anywhere and be insured. This happens with race camps, school tours, clubs etc all the time.
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skimottaret, exactly!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, is this where the coach/instructor debate starts 
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skimottaret,
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My understanding is that if you travel out and back with a group you can teach anywhere
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I think that may be a bit of a myth - it may happen all the time, that does not necessarily mean it's allowed. Like you say, it all depends on the rules in the country where you are teaching. For example in France you need to be ISTD, a L2 is stll not allowed (by the French) to teach there even if they travel out with the group.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 16-06-09 17:24; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I taught Interski with CSIA level 1 this season, and it's recognised in Andorra for sure. Skiing Europe also recognise it as an onsnow qualification.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| CEM wrote: |
| skimottaret, is this where the coach/instructor debate starts |
It sounds more like coaching than instructing to me.
There is nothing to stop those qualified as a BASI L2 coach from registering with SSE to get extra liability insurance.
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beanie1, You don't have to be ISTD to "coach" in France, the FFS has equivalent qualifications to those of UKSS.
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You know it makes sense.
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rjs, would you have to be registered with SSE?
I was only really talking about instructors, not coaches of private clubs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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beanie1, If you want to get SSE insurance then you need to be a member.
How is the example given by skimottaret different to a coach of a private club ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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rjs, which example, the L2 travelling out on a Snowheads trip and doing paid work? Arguably, the Snowheads group, tour operator, school group etc being taught by a L2 who's travelled out with them are taking work away from local ski schools. A club or national team with their coaches are not. Perhaps the difference lies there somewhere but to be honest, i didn't even think there was an exception for coaches, more of a blind eye being turned, i'll try and find out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| beanie1 wrote: |
rjs, would you have to be registered with SSE?
I was only really talking about instructors, not coaches of private clubs. |
An SSE Coach carries with the award an IVSI Licence which allows for coaching in France also, if you're part of the group you're coaching.
AFAIAA only SSE has the IVSI Certificate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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beanie1, It is difficult to become a Level 4 race coach, there are too few potential candidates to run the course, the last one was over 3 years ago. A fair number of people just have L3.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rjs, by the look of what is on the SSE website though, that would be the only way for a coach to be allowed to coach in France?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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beanie1, My understanding is if you're a Level 4 Coach elsewhere, i.e. BASI you can obtain an IVSI Licence from SSE.
SSE award IVSI status for their Development Coach Level. The skiing standard required isn't much better than a BASI L2 Instructor. A good pass L2 would walk it.
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Right, apparently club coaches can work in France if they are race training, as this is not seen as instructing. So skimottaret, going to coach his club (race traning, not beginners or teaching them to do anything other than race) is allowed, but going to France to teach a bunch of snowheads would not be allowed (unless they were race training!).
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beanie1, I'd be interested to know where it says that CSIA I is only valid in the UK in a dome and only valid on a mountain in Canada? As far as I know (and I'm prepared to be proven wrong) it's an on-snow qualification recognised not just in its home country but anywhere else that's prepared to recognise it. And even though BASI L1 is not supposed to be an on-mountain qualification, I'd imagine there will be places that will recognise it for on-mountain teaching - I'm afraid it's up to whoever's got the right/responsibility to make the decision in that region, obviously as long as they take on the insurance implications.
I'd agree that where there's no minimun certification, an employer who claims they are giving their clients a qualified instructor and is using a BASI L1 (as opposed to a CSIA I) on a mountain is being disingenuous. If it's where there is a minimum certification above BASI L1 or CSIA I, and an employer is nevertheless using one on a mountain, that would clearly be unscrupulous. Where have you heard of or witnessed an employer who operates in an area where there is a minimum level of certification above CSIA I, and they are using a CSIA I? Do you know of anywhere where there's a requirement for at least CSIA II or indeed BASI L2?
Spyderman,
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| ...SSE award IVSI status for their Development Coach Level. The skiing standard required isn't much better than a BASI L2 Instructor. A good pass L2 would walk it. |
That's what I've heard too, but IVSI in Europe is usually ISIA standard and BASI Alpine Devpmt Coach L2 is supposed to be ISIA (piste!) standard.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, You're right - Fastman is a coach, not an instructor so there is no problem with him working on the camps.
rjs, Sadly the FFS are not interested in dealing with any equivalence - I tried to get it for ssh a couple of years ago when he came over for the EOSB - he's level 2 PSIA which I figured was a little bit higher than the 'Moniteur Federal', but they wouldn't play. I was shi**ing myself all week. 
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slikedges,
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I'd be interested to know where it says that CSIA I is only valid in the UK in a dome and only valid on a mountain in Canada?
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My second post corrected my inaccurate statement of my first post, and I used UK artificial slopes as an example, I wasn't saying that was the only place. See:
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slikedges, sorry that was a bit of a sweeping statement that's not entirely accurate... CSIA 1 for example would be accepted in the UK on artificial slopes.
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| Quote: |
And even though BASI L1 is not supposed to be an on-mountain qualification, I'd imagine there will be places that will recognise it for on-mountain teaching - I'm afraid it's up to whoever's got the right/responsibility to make the decision in that region, obviously as long as they take on the insurance implications.
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I think it's up to the awarding body to decide what a qualification does or does not qualify the holder of it to do. Sure, it's an employer's own decision whether or not to employ that instructor, but neither they (nor the instructor) should then claim they are qualified to do something they are not, or make any reference to the qualification they do have (to teach on artificial slopes) or the body that gave it to them. I have worked with such an instructor who was claiming to his group that he was qualified to teach them in the mountains. He was not, and he was truly awful, people like that give BASI a bad name.
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Where have you heard of or witnessed an employer who operates in an area where there is a minimum level of certification above CSIA I, and they are using a CSIA I? Do you know of anywhere where there's a requirement for at least CSIA II or indeed BASI L2?
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I won't say on an internet forum, sorry.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Each county will have different laws on who can teach skiing. However, this will be down to whether the instructor is being paid for their services or not. An example would be it is very unlikely that I would be prosecuted anywhere in the world if I decided to give my wife a ski lesson whilst on holiday (forget for the purpose of this post that I am a professional ski teacher)!
Austria has different laws on teaching skiing depending on which Provence you intend to teach. To work in the ski school you will need a qualification that matches the Anwarter, and it will be at down to the ski school director (some BASI L1s work in Austria total legally). To teach independently (as a paid professional) there is a protocol to follow. However these laws are “the provincial ski school rules” and not the law. Therefore it would be difficult to enforce them or prosecute an individual. However, if there is an accident and the instructor is proven negligent, this is where the fun would begin. Also, as the law about teaching skiing is a “rubber” law, the authorities are more likely to get you on tax evasion.
If an instructor from the UK wanted to teach his / her own group in Austria, it would not be illegal, however seeking approval from the local ski school directors is advisable. The ski school and the tourism federation work hand in hand, get them on your side and you will have no problems. You must however teach within the remit of your qualification.
France are members of IVSI as is Austria, Germany and the UK to mention a few. The IVSI recognises amateur ski instructors and coaches and unites them under one international licence. Strictly speaking, an instructor/coach should be working with an organisation or club (as apposed to a commercial business). Provided this is the case, and the instructor/coach works within the remit of their qualification no laws would be broken. The laws generally apply to the Profession of ski teaching! Each country is different, in France the coach must be an unpaid volunteer and member of the club.
IVSI technical standards vary around the world. It would be fair to say, from what I have seen, a strong BASI L2 is about where the standard sits. It is unrealistic for an organisation affiliated to IVSI (amateur) to expect their technical level to match the ISIA (professional) level. However, depending on where you take the award, some organisations are race orientated at IVSI level, so you may need to be poo-poo hot! SSE IVSI is about BASI L2 IMO
In the UK it will be the organisation or facility that decide on what qualification is necessary. We have no national laws that dictate the levels of qualifications. Each awarding body will have a set of recommendations for each award.
PSG
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, sorry but still not clear  but I guess I didn't pose the question very well. What I meant to say is "I'd be interested to know where it says that in the UK CSIA I is only valid on artificial slopes or that CSIA I is only valid on Canadian mountains and not mountains elsewhere." Do you believe it not to be a valid on-mountain qualification outside of Canada?
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I think it's up to the awarding body to decide what a qualification does or does not qualify the holder of it to do. Sure, it's an employer's own decision whether or not to employ that instructor, but neither they (nor the instructor) should then claim they are qualified to do something they are not, or make any reference to the qualification they do have (to teach on artificial slopes) or the body that gave it to them. |
It's semantics really but it's up to the awarding body to decide what a qualification is intended to qualify the holder of it to do. It's up to clients/employers/legislative bodies to decide what they will accept. I'd agree though that they shouldn't say/intimate that the qualification covers on-mountain teaching when it doesn't.
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| I have worked with such an instructor who was claiming to his group that he was qualified to teach them in the mountains. He was not, and he was truly awful, people like that give BASI a bad name. |
Such first level qualified only instructors also give Austrian, American, Canadian and probably most other ski instructor associations a bad name, not just BASI! I don't think the level of skiing required to pass the BASI L1 is any less than that required to pass most other entry level qualifications even if it's doesn't entitle you to teach on-mountain.
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I won't say on an internet forum, sorry.
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Not at all asking you to say which company or even which town  just which country! I don't know of anywhere (though I might just be ignorant!) where there's a specific requirement for CSIA II (without additional bells) ie CSIA I is expressly insufficient.
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gilleski, good post!  Clears some things up! I understand things in Finland (maybe Norway also?) to be the same as in Austria and UK, ie no national legislation, just up to the ski school? I certainly know a BASI L1 who works there.
Couple of points:
Many UK professional ski coaches do take athletes out to train in France (mainly Tignes, LDA, Les Houches etc) when they themselves are neither volunteers nor "members". It's very common and I'm told (though I don't really know) that they're not in breach of the rules and they of course need to declare themselves to the local authorities in order to get training lanes etc.
IVSI may be amateur but as it's race orientated should not the expectations be higher? For instance I believe the Level 4 coaching award in either BASI or the Home Nations bodies surpasses BASI ISTD, doesn't it?
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowqueen11 wrote: |
| I taught Interski with CSIA level 1 this season, and it's recognised in Andorra for sure. Skiing Europe also recognise it as an onsnow qualification. |
Not sure who told you it's recognised in Andorra. Andorran law requires any snowsport instructor to have received a certain number of days receiving official training towards a certification. CSIA I is a four day course. CSIA II is (usually) a five day course. The two combined to not add up to enough days. However, the local authorities have agreed that an 'extended' CSIA II, as run by the the Instructor Academy in Soldeu, meets the required standards (CSIA were involved in the design of the extended course). Therefore, the minimum required to teach in Andorra would be the extended version of CSIA II, or the normal CSIA III.
Anyway, sort of answering the first question... (I say sort of, I didn't go down the BASI route...) I took my CSIA I after nine weeks on snow. My CSCF I after about twelve weeks on snow. And my CSIA II, this April, after about seventeen weeks on snow.
I think that anyone should be able to attend an instructor course if their skiing is up to scratch, however many weeks they have been skiing. It should then be up to the trainer to decide, throughout the course, whether the candidate is capable of teaching to the level/standard set by the awarding body - even if they ski way beyond the required level; even if their analysis and delivery of instruction is excellent; if they can't get their heads around class management and safety (be that in a controlled environment or a mountainous environment) then they are not of a suitable standard to qualify at that level of instructor. Unfortunately, I get the impression that this aspect of qualification is somewhat of a lesser concern when deciding who passes and who fails - safety above all else, and I'm sure that it is the way that all instructors and schools wish lessons to be conducted, but perhaps a bit more consideration at qualification too?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skisimon, yep, CSIA II extended is what I was thinking of when referring to CSIA II with bells on above!
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Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, thought it must have been. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skisimon, you're correct, and I should have said the extended CSIA II programme for Andorra. I'm pretty sure you could get a job teaching tiny tots out there with a level 1 though (I may be completely wrong about this).
To answer the first question, I did my ASSI at Wycombe Summit (ahh....) after about 5 weeks on snow over a period of 3 years, did my CSIA 1 after about 5 months dry slope instructor training every week and another 3 weeks on snow, and then my BASI 2 earlier this year after about another 15 weeks on snow. But, I'm a qualified teacher as well, so I found the teaching bit easy. My skiing improved immeasurably by having to go back to basics and learn how to demo central theme, and fast track to parallel etc, so for anyone that's thinking of doing an instructor course - go for it! You might not pass it, but you'll have heaps of fun, and you can always retake! Your skiing will only benefit from it, for sure.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowqueen11 wrote: |
| so for anyone that's thinking of doing an instructor course - go for it! You might not pass it, but you'll have heaps of fun, and you can always retake! Your skiing will only benefit from it, for sure. |
Excellent point, and describes exactly my view going into my CSIA I. I wasn't sure if I could pass it or not, but looked at it as a great four day course working on core skiing technique, with some other stuff thrown in for interest. I passed, though didn't exactly set Whistler alight with my skiing (it was good enough is about all that could be said about it).
Then I did my CSCF Entry Level course - I went in with exactly the same attitude (it's the best way to approach anything new, I think). Had a great week learning to ski in a completely different way and grew hugely in confidence. It helped having one of the best coaches in the world lead the course. Definitely the best week of skiing I've yet had (sorry to any I've skied with). Scraped a pass for the skiing again (quite pleased actually, as the standard is a lot higher than one might expect).
My CSIA II is the only course I've gone into with the main aim of passing (and expecting to do so). It will almost certainly be the last time I enter a course in that mindset too, with the leap beteen CSIA II and III and CSCF I and II. It was, though, the only one I passed with some breathing space on the skiing front*...
*Despite what anyone might have thought at HH last week... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges,
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What I meant to say is "I'd be interested to know where it says that in the UK CSIA I is only valid on artificial slopes or that CSIA I is only valid on Canadian mountains and not mountains elsewhere."
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Sorry if I didn't make myself clear - I may have implied that in my first post, but I have now three times corrected myself and said that was not what I meant to say. Perhaps it would be clearer if I said that CSIA 1 is not "widely recognised" outside Canada, rather than not allowed. I don't think many people would argue with that - the higher level of qualification you have (from any awarding body), the wider your employment opportunities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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david@mediacopy, The document is here.
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rjs, thanks for the link. For BASI Level 2 it says you can gain IVSI Level 2, plus direct entry to Level 3 assessment. What does that mean? Does SSE run it's own IVSI L3 assessment, and if so what does that entail?
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rob@rar, Recreational Level 3 isn't an IVSI qualification, it is just a UKSS course.
More detailed descriptions are here.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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paulio, old news, there's already a thread on this
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FAQ
)