 Poster: A snowHead
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but probably the mass media play on that....making us enemy..... but what I read was written in english and was in tha hand of british workers.... it was on sky not on italian television.....the television talk about a strike against the italian and the potoghese workers.... I was just saiyng that also here if you are british you find more work than a french...( in the hotel....the staff is british, in the pub , in the ski schools.....) and so if in every country we start to refuse the concurrence and we start to protect our interest, without thinking on the more important interest of all europe, we will never finish the project of be unificate in europe working everibody for help each other.....
the economical crise is hard for everibody and only toghether we survive.....
about example of british protectionism I have no idea.... I just read on internet and see few emission on tv talking about that.....but i live on the mountain I have not the opportunity to know if what i see on tv is true or not......was for that I was asking .....
maibe there is an interest to make us against each other.....like for example:
last winter the bank in france they refuse to change the pound....I had a lot of cliets having problem to pay cause the bank was not accepting to chance pounds in euros....they were accepting only piement by card....no cash...can you explain me why??? maibe they were knowing before about what happens to the pound in the last 3 mounts???? it is something planned before??? is it normal loose 40% in one year???? or there is a power over us who joke with the life of everibody?????
I'm so concerned cause i have 12 bloody thousabd pounds in my pocket .....and I hope like all of you that the pound come back at his normal place.....but I 'm not sure that gonna happen.....and so I think than if in Italy we have Berlusconi.....also you are maibe not better.....and all the other country the same.......and everibody we have a lot of problem.....but surely nobody have the real true.....and the mass media don't work very weel
skiledge......finally someone understand me.......I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALL THE NOT FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WORKING AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WHATEVER THEIR NATIONALITY....like I think you have no problem with my qualification if I want to come to scottland to work.....but cause it is a full qualification....( sorry for the capital letter.......but is long time I try to explain my point....)
now sorry but i go to sleep that tomorrow I have an hard day.....my first day of holiday.....eheheheheh
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| lungostyle, I think if there were lots of unemployed good local ski instructors in ski resorts in the respective Alp countries that they might resent the employment of British instuctors taking jobs that could be theirs. This is analogous to the current situation where the current employment of the skilled Italian workers has coincided with unemployed workers in the UK. |
That's not a good analogy at all. There is meant to be the free movement of labour across the EU. If you are appropriately qualified you should be able to apply for and be judged equally for the job as a 'local' would be. Preferring locals for no other reason than they are local is just as illegal as not giving locals the opportunity to apply for jobs because the subcontractor prefers to employ people from a different country.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, Megamum may be talking about how people feel, as opposed to what the law is. 'British jobs for British workers' wasn't a very clever slogan either, in terms of the law regarding free movement of labour across the EU.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, I agree. I think it's important to focus on what the law allows not what people feel, because tribalism will inevitably cloud the debate. As far as ski instructing goes I prefer to think of what is the best way of ensuring a good instructor is put in front of the client. That will partly be about experience, partly about qualifications, partly about aptitude and partly about language skills. Sometimes that will mean a local mountain man or woman, but other times it will mean an instructor who is not local and might not be a national of that country.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Most people (particularly adults) find it easiest to learn in a language they know well. I personally prefer learning in French, as I've done most of my ski learning in French (2 weeks in winter, week in summer compared with 1 day in England!). But I decided I preferred French as the first instructor I had was better at explaining what to do in French. The instructor spoke fluent English, and had an English wife, but was still better in his native language.
The sentiments shown by the protestors are not shared by the majority of the population!
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| Quote: |
like I think you have no problem with my qualification if I want to come to scottland to work.
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lungostyle, I'd love to book a lesson if you come to Scotland. Have a good holiday 
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I'd take direction from a VVG skier without a language..
you watch people ski all the time.... you watch a golf-swing in slo-mo...ditto a ski racer..
Maybe a weeks lesson might be a tad too far...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
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I think it's important to focus on what the law allows not what people feel
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So do I! 
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lungostyle,
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skiledge......finally someone understand me.......I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALL THE NOT FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WORKING AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WHATEVER THEIR NATIONALITY....like I think you have no problem with my qualification if I want to come to scottland to work.....but cause it is a full qualification....( sorry for the capital letter.......but is long time I try to explain my point....)
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I can understand that. I too would like to see greater transparency of experience/qualifications from ski schools and it makes sense that this might be reflected in price - I think the market would demand it. I always insist on fully qualified instructors. Unfortunately ski school customers are mostly unaware of the different levels and how that may affect the quality of instruction
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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lungostyle, England is one of the few countries where all the skiing is off piste, on account we don't have any.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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lungostyle, are you the Italiam Basil Fawltey ??
I guess if I wanted tuition in chopping of horses heads, i'd look for an Italian instructor 
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I think we are almost on the same idea......recession give problem.....and it is very nice to know that the country of my wife is still good like I know before........a part few problem of misaundertstanding yesterday night you show me that we can talk also if we don't agree .....and that is very important for me.........
concernig british instructor here.....don't worry are more than necessary they will never loose the job.......french doesn't speak english......and all our tourist speack english also if theyaren't british
concerning the problem of the not full qualified ....I have no problem with them....my job don't depend from them.....was just like someone say that is not correct that the customer have no idea about the qualification of their instructor....and was not against basi.....but against everibodi use the system...of stagiaires...
rob rar......think that easyski is one of my friend here......I know her and I never say that she's not good.......(infact she's a full qulified......with a lot of year of experience more than me.....) .....and also her she know that I always say that john (one of our friends working here) is for me the best instructor we can have in les 2 alpes.........he is british, not young, stagierie( from 25 years.....and that give him a lot of experience......)..... so I'm not razzist......I'm just concerned cause it is my life.....
yes ....I'm the owner of Fawltey towers hotel.......there are rooms available if you need...........
for who think I'm not good enough for explain him the very little feelling we have on skiis with my english.......writting is more difficult.....speacking is different.....think that only with my words my wife loose completely the control and leave england for stay in mountain all the rest of her life........probably my words means more than what yoiu think.......
aniway the fact the differnt than a lot of people here......you can notice that I never write my web site.....I never try to sell you lessons......I'm not here for find clientas.......I'm here for find people who love the snow like me......and chat with them.....helping if I can or making polemic when is necessary.......
I have already teach to people form snowheads......and that I know every clients easy ski pass me .....they alwais enjoiy my tuition......so easyski tell me ......I hope was true.........
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You know it makes sense.
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| lungostyle wrote: |
| is not correct that the customer have no idea about the qualification of their instructor....and was not against basi..... |
If your concern is clients being charged at the same rate for partly qualified instructors rather than having a problem just with BASI then we can agree on that. But if you think the problem is only BASI or British instructors then we will have to disagree.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ringingmaster wrote: |
I am not saying your English is not good. As I said earlier in the thread it is a lot better than my French. But I am saying that it would not be good enough to accurately communicate with me if I was paying you to teach me the nuances of some specialised process or technique. Advanced off-piste skiing technique for example.
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actually I think you're wrong - he can communicate fine in English. Just read his posts with an italian accent - My written french is much worse than my spoken french, but most people consider me fluent, and I think I teach just as well in french as in english. Grammar does not make communication.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think we can all agree that the placards on show during the recent industrial action were more than regretable. Many more brits work in the rest of europe than other europeans in britain. I also agree that the public should know and have a choice about qualifications. Do most of them care? Probably not really. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges, I am beginning to recognise the skiing qualification acronyms because I see them on these threads, but despite being a regular poster here and far more informed now than I used to be I am still a skiing punter who couldn't say which qualification is better than aonther, I don't know what the acronyms stand for, I don't know if the levels climb in number with advancement or whether they fall - is level III a higher or lower qualification than level I. I wouldn't mind betting that I am not alone.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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lungostyle, I think your English is absolutely enchanting - and perfectly easy to understand, as easiski says.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, you and me both, but we don't have to worry our little heads any more, we've got snowHead recommendations to rely on!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Colin B, very, very true.
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Megamum, like I say, you're in very good company. Generally the levels climb in number with higher levels of attainment incld the new BASI Level system. In fact the only system that comes to mind with the numbers going the opposite way is the old BASI Grade system where 1 was the highest level of attainment.
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lungostyle, TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK.
That will get you more sympathy straight away.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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offpisteskiing, eh, ......he's turned them off, for the last two posts at least
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Lorenzo, lungostyle's "stream of consciousness" posting style (nothing to do with his language skills) inevitable means that his posts are a mix bag, likely to contain - as they do - errors and prejudices, as well as grains of truth.
Who is the "they" in your "very xenophobic messages" sentence? Normally, it would refer to the subject of the sentence (us), which would be unfair in my opinion. If you meant the strikers, I agree. However that sort of protectionist instinct is hardly unique to Britain in a recession.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, thanks - I have edited the post. Don't want to cause more offence than is necessary!!
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rob rar.....we agree.....is all my life I'm contrary to half instructor independent where thay come from....
Lorenzo.....probably the italian origin of your name help you to understand my point.......but I think it is normal stay on defense with a foreign who write on a british forum......
like for the italian.....there's no problem if an italian say that we are a mafia country......but no one italian will permitt to a foreign to say the same........we can say Berlusconi is an idiot......not you....we become protective.........we wash our laundry home......
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| skiledge......finally someone understand me.......I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALL THE NOT FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WORKING AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WHATEVER THEIR NATIONALITY....like I think you have no problem with my qualification if I want to come to scottland to work.....but cause it is a full qualification....( sorry for the capital letter.......but is long time I try to explain my point....) |
Ski schools REALLY should differentiate prices according to instructor qualifications. An ISTD equivalent gets a higher wage then an entry level, and an ISIA equivalent gets something in between. Thats fair. What is definetly not good is the ski school makes more money sending out an entry level then when sending out an ISTD.. A school will like to send the lowest instructor that is unlikely to upset the customer.
5 quid an hour less if you want an Anwarter, current price for an ISIA, 5 quid more for an ISTD.... Makes things so transparent, and economically it should be about the same.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ronald you are my god.......that will be very good.......infact tha half instructor the gain also less.......so it is not agaist them......but who gain on that are the owner of the skiscools.......
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Poster: A snowHead
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lungostyle, Unfortunately I don't see it happen anytime soon ;(
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| lungostyle wrote: |
| .....probably the italian origin of your name help you to understand |
Not my real name, I'm afraid. Born in Scotland, but from English parents - so I do think across borders.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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lungostyle, How much training in off piste do the Italian instructors do?
Part of the reason for the inclusion of off piste courses in the BASI system (ISIA followed by EMS) is so that instructors can assist with civil disasters (avalanche in the village or in the ski area). As you will know the emergency services will need as many people to assist who understand how to use an ARVA and a probe, and follow instructions from a disaster coordinator. This is our commitment in BASI to safety it is not to make our instructors in to mountain guides. Also with some information instructors can advice AGAINST skiing off piste to customers and snowsport holiday makers.
In the Italian system are the off piste course much much harder?
PSG
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Ronald wrote: |
| Quote: |
| skiledge......finally someone understand me.......I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALL THE NOT FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WORKING AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE FULL QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR WHATEVER THEIR NATIONALITY....like I think you have no problem with my qualification if I want to come to scottland to work.....but cause it is a full qualification....( sorry for the capital letter.......but is long time I try to explain my point....) |
Ski schools REALLY should differentiate prices according to instructor qualifications. An ISTD equivalent gets a higher wage then an entry level, and an ISIA equivalent gets something in between. Thats fair. What is definetly not good is the ski school makes more money sending out an entry level then when sending out an ISTD.. A school will like to send the lowest instructor that is unlikely to upset the customer.
5 quid an hour less if you want an Anwarter, current price for an ISIA, 5 quid more for an ISTD.... Makes things so transparent, and economically it should be about the same. |
When I worked in Scotland a Grade 1 virtually put you out of a job.  One per school and that was that. we were too expensive. the good thing about working in France is that the 'Nationale' is valued and that includes Maestro and Grade 1 etc. etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| slikedges, I am beginning to recognise the skiing qualification acronyms because I see them on these threads, but despite being a regular poster here and far more informed now than I used to be I am still a skiing punter who couldn't say which qualification is better than aonther, I don't know what the acronyms stand for, I don't know if the levels climb in number with advancement or whether they fall - is level III a higher or lower qualification than level I. I wouldn't mind betting that I am not alone. |
they all have different names though, but you can differentiate by finding out which level the awards are from the ISIA - ISIA stamp is our Level 3 currently and ISTD is the top level, but not all countries have their top level at ISTD - some are only ISIA - clear as mud???
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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now ......I have no idea......when I pass my exam(1992) I remember that they put me like ev rione else for 2 hours and half under a simulated avalanche......waiting for the dog.....naturally with special sute.....all that during the 2 years of course was during around 3 weeks......
now I have no idea.......
i know it is not a lot......but you have to think that in italy the simple ski instructor is not allowed to bring people of piste........off piste in italy is proibited.......you can go just with "guide alpine" .....alpine guide are completely another categorie.....
here in france simpèle instructor can bring people off piste...(40% of my job)....
aniway 20 years ago I think was not necessary cause at the time tje profession was closed for people who don't live in the mountain.......and in this periode there was so mucgh snow than everibodihave few experience of avalanche.......
personaly I think that the course don't teach us nothing......Ive been twice in an avalanche.....one time for 8 minutes!!!!!I was 12......but I still have nightmare of the dog saving me.......aniway I apologize .....but when happen it is not a problem to know in wich way we use the arva or the shovel.......but it is a problem about how much we are able to use our brain staying calm.......the firs problem of avalanche is the panic of everibodi thinking to their frinds under the snow.......and that only years and years of experience can halp......not a course........but bee someone who live in the snow since young help......normally they know better what to do.......
surely it is not giving a shovel and arva to a feller who spend a week everi season on the snow you sort out the problem.......I'm aniway happy about they teach something about that.....but I'm worried cause after there can be people thinking......"now I know why tha avalanche and in wich way I can find someone ....." and under calueting the risk......personally I prefere discover the area with the old people of the village........after 13 years that I leave here maibe I can say that I know the area.....but cannot be enough....but it is something
if you are interested aniway I have the diploma of alpine guide......but I don't think they teach more than the 2 time happen on my head.......
so I don't know if it is harder......but I don't understand the question.......are you still trying to involve me in a polemic against the basi???? I say already that I have no problem.......but probably if so many people are concerned mean that here you have a problem.......with your qualification........me I have only problem with people teaching without finish all the level......can I have an idea different than the people of this web site....or here we accept only pèeople who lick your ass?????
when people say I 'm a mafia feller cause I'm italian .....I accept....I know my country......if someone criticize something maibe you can try to see if is it the true and not only defending your point.......because here we arrive already from few days to understand each othoer....and you look like someone is not happy.....stop this now pleas......
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And some grades of qualification are changing year to year... E.g. CSIA IV was ISTD last season, now no longer.
Have the ISIA Performance Levels been fully implemented? In them: CSIA III to become Performance L1; CSIA IV to become Performance L2; and CSIA IV + ISIA Mtn Safety Test + Technical Test (e.g. Euro Test) to become Performance L3 (ISTD)...
| CSIA E-Blast wrote: |
ISIA Minimum Standards
During the last ISIA (International Ski Instructor Association) meeting, the minimum ISIA standards were clearly defined. The ISIA described its 3 performance levels based on the number of hours of education and the course curriculum.
ISIA Performance Level 1 = CSIA Level 3
ISIA Performance Level 2 = CSIA Level 4
ISIA Performance Level 3 = The 2 requirements which must be passed are: ISIA technical test (racing or euro test); ISIA safety test (trained to take guests on off-piste runs and to be familiar with equipment such as compass, altimeters, avalanche transceivers, geographic maps etc…) |
That list does not include the other courses required to be eligible to attempt the CSIA IV course/exams.
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| lungostyle wrote: |
| me I have only problem with people teaching without finish all the level...... |
Isn't that a bit chicken and egg though? By definition someone with a top-level qualification ought to be a great teacher, but great teaching comes from experience. If you don't have the teaching experience, how are you going to be a good enough teacher to get the top-level qualification? Are you suggesting that all but the fully qualified should be shadowing? But is it really a good idea to claim that someone is top-qualified if they are still learning the teaching side on-the-job?
I would agree that the "misrepresentation" and lack of differentiation is the key issue. But it might need a professional organisation such as the ISIA to impose pricing differentials to implement such a thing - after all, from a business point of view, the price of anything is what people are prepared to pay and if clients don't specifically ask for a level of qualification, then it's hardly surprising that ski schools don't make the distinction.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| lungostyle wrote: |
| but when happen it is not a problem to know in wich way we use the arva or the shovel.......but it is a problem about how much we are able to use our brain staying calm |
There is a degree of logic in this. However, I feel that the two go hand in hand - one is better than neither, but both are the best.
As my analogy... When I was in the Navy we did lots of training for fire fighting and damage control. When onboard one ship we were doing more training (practice is vital of course). As we were finishing a real emergency happened, there was actual flooding on one of decks below the waterline. I happened to be near the closest response point so headed straight down. The training was vital. I could have been in flooding situations before and been quite calm, but if I hadn't been taught what to do I would have been useless (this is of course better than being a hinderence, as you would be if you freaked out). As it was, we dealt with the situation and everything was okay in the end. I've now got a better understanding (from doing as well as training) and know what to expect (one of the reasons why 'live' drills are included on courses), but if I hadn't previously been told not just what to do, but how to do it and when to do it I would have got in the way, however many times I had done it.
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yes now I'm a chicken.....thanks.....probably someone tell me that 's a compliment......if you have to go in hospital cause a real deseas.....you will prefere have a doctor or someone is studing to be doctor????? if the second one come in italy to have your intervection....that in my country we have no doctor working.....them they are on holiday all the time .....but you can have a student......don't worry he is making experience....but is a good feller.......maibe you die....but him he's doing his experience........
you have no idea about what you are talking about........
ITALIN SYSTEM IS THE WORST OF THE PLANETE......IN ITALY WE ARE ALL poo-poo PEOPLE........basi is the best way for become instructor in the planete......thereis nothing at all to change.....even when they go to the toilette for a big one......if they are basi instrucltor ....DOESN'T SMELL.....
is ok now.....can we pass to other matter???? are you happy......
fortunally rob rar that I'm booring.........
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FAQ
