 Poster: A snowHead
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I don't know if pistes have become less safe, or if I have just become more sensitive to the situation, but I have recently had time to reflect on this subject. It occurs to me that many people, boarders and skiers, are not aware of the mountain etiquette which relates to safety!
For example, I skied with a friend last year who commented that I always stopped below her on the slope. It had never before occurred to me that I did this, but it was indeed what I was tought to do!
I have also often observed, "weekend skiers" tackling pistes, or indeed off piste on terrain which was obviously beyond their ability. In the past I have merely taken an academic interest in such people, watching for an accident, but since I've now been temporarily incapacitated myself, I take the problem more personally.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| There's an easy answer to this which is if you feel a slope is dangerously overcrowded ensure you have the skills and tactics to avoid being a victim or simply don't ski there. |
That's not an easy answer in some cases. The dangerously overcrowded slopes in a lot of resorts are the home runs that are used both as high-speed throughfares, and also as beginner slopes.
Beginners, by definition, don't have the skills and tactics to avoid being a victim, but I don't suppose that 'simply' not skiing there is often an option. So the onus isn't necessarily on the people without the skills and tactics, but may be on those that do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| paulio wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| There's an easy answer to this which is if you feel a slope is dangerously overcrowded ensure you have the skills and tactics to avoid being a victim or simply don't ski there. |
That's not an easy answer in some cases. The dangerously overcrowded slopes in a lot of resorts are the home runs that are used both as high-speed throughfares, and also as beginner slopes.
Beginners, by definition, don't have the skills and tactics to avoid being a victim, but I don't suppose that 'simply' not skiing there is often an option. So the onus isn't necessarily on the people without the skills and tactics, but may be on those that do. |
Fair point - most places I've been have relatively separate pure beginner area/the bunny hill, so I assume we're really talking about those who feel like they can be a bit more adventurous by trying "the green" that also doubles as the only cattrack returning punters home. Perhaps one skill they could exercise is asking their instructor whether it is an appropriate run for them. For the resort they can then chose to terraform and snow cannon an alternate more direct route or discourage traffic by clealry identifying the run as a gongfest and suggesting downloading would be more pleasant. I can think L2A, Engelberg, GM/Le Tour all as examples of places that would benefit from this.
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I remember stumbling around in a snowplough stance on the acres of green in Alpe d'Huez, with people schussing past me at 60mph close enough to smell them.
Now I'm learning to snowboard, I'm experiencing it all over again (with extra 'being pompously shouted at').
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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paulio, Now that you're learning to snowboard you're obviously a menace to society and deserve to be shouted at 
Actually all skiers as a condition of being able to call themselves "advanced intermediate" should have to try snowboarding so
i They can appreciate what a properly sore and bruised ar$e feels like
ii They can experience the full horror of the slo-mo toe edge catch
iii They are more inclined to give a whip on flat spots
iv They get off their high horse about snowboarders
v They actually understand and gain rudimentary anticipation of turn shape and size etc
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Fatbob - you forgot vi - lame skiers might suddenly find that they can actually snowboard better and have some fun rather than doing the stunned giraffe. I have to say though that I've had a few goes and consistently sucked so hard I blew, so promptly canned it and got 2 planks back, but that's another thread.
Pistes are safer now that I've given up trying boards.
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| fatbob wrote: |
paulio, Now that you're learning to snowboard you're obviously a menace to society and deserve to be shouted at
Actually all skiers as a condition of being able to call themselves "advanced intermediate" should have to try snowboarding so
i They can appreciate what a properly sore and bruised ar$e feels like
ii They can experience the full horror of the slo-mo toe edge catch
iii They are more inclined to give a whip on flat spots
iv They get off their high horse about snowboarders
v They actually understand and gain rudimentary anticipation of turn shape and size etc |
This is all true. I used to be a particular offender as (iv) is concerned. Something I now gladly take back, meekly.
Honestly though, being a snowboarder sucks. I've had my public dignity thoroughly pillaged both on the slope, and in the lift queue, for doing nothing in particular in either case.
Basically, skiers are a bunch of [connection interrupted please try again later]
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 13-01-09 23:19; edited 1 time in total
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Half of my mates board and I can honestly say that I've never had a problem with blind spots whilst skiing with them. We all just make ourselves aware of what is going on around us. B@$t@rds still expect a tow on the flats though 
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It probably is more dangerous now because of the risk of serious collision but I'd like to see the actual evidence.
If it is true then I assume its because of higher capacity lifts/more congested slopes, much, much fewer moguls (speed humps) and shorter, easier skis.
With regard to snowboarders, where have they all gone ? There seemed to be very few left in Val D'Isere/Tignes before Christmas and I'm not expecting to see that many in St Anton. Is it dying a death ?
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Guys , relax who cares what your sliding on, just observe the rules & look down hill . The folks who dont observe the rules, stand around are the problem .
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stanton wrote: |
| Guys , relax who cares what your sliding on, just observe the rules & look down hill . The folks who dont observe the rules, stand around are the problem . |
For what it's worth, I agree.
This isnt a get at borders or skiers issue. I just see too many incidents and too people who dont appear to have the basic slope skills. Some one posted earlier about always stopping below people, never above. How can people not be aware of this? At the very least its common sense.
This was taught to me during week one lessons and reinforced in later tuition. Is it training? Or as a society are we just becoming way to selfish to even consider others?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| paulio wrote: |
| Spyderman wrote: |
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| However I have noticed snowboarders rarely travel as fast as skiers and are less likely to be out of control, but one thing they do which can be construed as dangerous is sitting in big groups at the side of the piste effectively narrowing the skiable area... |
Surely you mean in the middle of the piste, under a blind crest, so as to be totally invisible from above. |
I have a new respect for snowboarders having now tried it a bit.
"We" don't just sit about under blind crests for a laugh. We fall over a lot, and have to regain composure before undertaking the tricky task of recovering all the splinters of coccyx that have just come out of our noses.
I daresay there is the occasional loon who thinks that sitting in the freezing cold in the middle of, effectively, a motorway is a good idea. Most times though, please extend your perhaps reluctant sympathy to the winded snowboarder with the pulverised buttocks. It might be me.
A snowboarder sat down is only the same thing as a skier standing still. It's just that standing still on a board is pretty much physically impossible, so whenever you need a breather there's no option but to gracelessly crumple into a heap on the floor. |
Everybody falls over. My gripe is more, groups of Snowboarders sitting in a line under blind crests. I know why they do it on the steeper section, because it's easier to get up and it's more comfortable, but it's bloody dangerous.
If you want to have a rest, fine, collapse in a heap at the side of the piste and where you can be seen.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't know whether the pistes are more dangerous or not - some numbers would be useful - but for Snowheads the fact that we can read about significant accidents so easily probably increases the perception of risk. In the same way that people are absolutely convinced, despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary, that more children are killed by paedophiles nowadays. I would not have known about any of the bad accidents this winter if I hadn't read about them on Snowheads.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Spyderman, I think you should give it a go. You'll soon see.
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Poster: A snowHead
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What Spyderman says is true to an extent, but I don't think snowboarders sitting on the piste are that big a problem when you look at the percentage of accident reports - most, especially recently, feature skiers (and the odd boarder) colliding at speed or it's a case of someone doing off-piste and dying in an avalanche. Certain sectors of the alpine sports community like to moan about boarders sitting around because it's an easy target...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was skiing in Alpe d'Huez over Christmas and new year with the Christmas week being the "quietest" time. The difference in my perceived safety on the slopes was enormous between the two weeks. The second week it was carnage! This was for one main reason: the increased numbers of people the second week. However, the gravity of a collision would have been augmented due to other contibuttory factors: namely drinking and a distinct lack of anticipation during skiing and boarding from people of all abilities. On one ocassion we were in a lift up to the glacier where a group of seasonaires were discussing their antics the previous night. It transpired that they'd been drinking all night and well into that morning. They were talking about how drunk they still were and one guy even said he ought not to be out! Yet they carried on regardless. Later we saw the same drunken individual launch himself down the Tunnel with wild abandon and not surprisingly he fell spectacularly. It was simply good fortune that he missed the other people on the slope at the time. The other thing I noticed is that a huge number of people fail to anticipate potential accidents. People simply do not look ahead of them. They do not scan the slope. They are not taking into account the number of slope users, the gradient, changes in snow, slope intersections, etc. Whilst I am skiing or snowboarding I am vigilant about my surroundings. I don't leave it up to others to take evasive action. Ski/board defensivley, just as you might drive a car or motorbike you assume that everyone else is an idiot! What the answer is to this problem I do not know. Certainly tuition helps but for some, once they've learned the basics it is prohibitively expensive so they fend for themselves and probably over time forget any safety values that may have been instilled in the tuition stages. Ski police is something I've heard people talk about but understandably there is resistance to this. It is nice to have romantic notions of the mountains being one of the last places where you have total freedom...but then this may be part of the problem. There is one thing I know for sure, the situation is not likely to improve unless there are less people on the slopes. Sadly for me I am unable to ski/board outside of school holidays.
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LucieF, to some extent I may be guilty of what you say. Not the drinking bit, I am usually sensible about that (believe it or not), but familiarity breeds contempt. The piste on which I was hit is one I have skied hundreds of time, and could probably ski with my eyes closed. My eyes were not closed and I do not possess any in the back of my head unfortunately, but perhaps I was not as vigilant as I could have been. It was very crowded and last time I skied it out of school holidays I practically have the slopes to myself.
In future I will adopt the adage I heard whilst learning to drive- if you presume that half the other road users are about to do something stupid, then you will be half right!
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FWIW I was never told in lessons about stopping under other skiers that were part of the same group and it never occurred to me to do so until a friend suggested that was what I should be doing  The reason it didn't occur to me to think about is because I was worried about the skiers I was planning to stop below deciding to slip down the slope moments before I stopped and fill the space I was intending to use. Therefore it always seemed safer to stop above people in a space that I knew wasn't about to be filled. Also, if I wanted to have a conversation with the people in the group it always seems hard to stop at exactly the right distance away to be able to speak - whereas if you stop above someone you can always sideslip down to where they are, but it is not as easy to get back up the hill. What you do need to know is that I am aware that my hockey stops are still 'unpredictable' and I always give a far larger margin of error to other users wherever I stop than even I probably need to. To be honest I can still see the logic in both approaches, but will now stop below other people that I'm with if this is considered the safer approach.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, always stop below a group on piste, but if you're following a guide it's probably best to stop above him/her unless you fancy dropping off a cliff or into a crevasse
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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There are a lot of people skiing above their limit.
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| One guy in particular who had only had lessons in the UK on indoor slopes and preferred not to 'waste' his holiday with tuition... |
I had a friend who said the same thing before he went. He was 6'5" tall and 18 stone. I told him he was an idiot before he went and I didn't feel sorry for him when he came back with bruises and sprains from crashing after being so out of control he couldn't tay on the piste.
| Spyderman wrote: |
| Surely you mean in the middle of the piste, under a blind crest, so as to be totally invisible from above. |
I've seen some good skiers do some stupid things though. Standing chatting about 30 foot from a big jump (one of the ones you can't see over before you jump it and land in the "keep clear" area) at the bottom of a snow park. The group were annoyed when I almost hit them and shouted at them to get out of the way.
At least, most of the time on the piste, a lot of people will take it easy coming up to a blind crest. A couple of reasons are that you don't know what's beyond it and there are lots of people standing above it. But in a snow park, it's crazy. The funny thing is, my brother and I got told off by the police for not wearing helmets, so maybe we were just as bad?
| rambotion wrote: |
| The most serious accident I've ever seen was caused by a boarder and it wasn't pretty. |
Ive found that boarders don't/can't stop as quickly as skiers which can be dangerous.
| paulio wrote: |
| We fall over a lot, and have to regain composure before undertaking the tricky task of recovering all the splinters of coccyx that have just come out of our noses. |
You can do that after cautiously making it over to the side of the slope on your board/backside/face/etc.
| easiski wrote: |
| less respect |
Definitely
I think it comes down to the same points as drivers. If you stay aware of your surroundings, keep your distance, stop only on the hard shoulder and slow down if you feel out of control, then you'll be fine. Otherwise, get off my road/piste!!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| thebronsonite wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
| We fall over a lot, and have to regain composure before undertaking the tricky task of recovering all the splinters of coccyx that have just come out of our noses. |
You can do that after cautiously making it over to the side of the slope on your board/backside/face/etc. |
Not until after a few minutes you can't, sometimes. And whilst you're doing so...?
| thebronsonite wrote: |
| I think it comes down to the same points as drivers. If you stay aware of your surroundings, keep your distance, stop only on the hard shoulder and slow down if you feel out of control, then you'll be fine. Otherwise, get off my road/piste!!!! |
Learner drivers usually get somebody sat next to them with a brake and a clutch, otherwise they'd generally crash at some point - especially in the earliest few hours of learning.
Where do you propose people learn their trade when a beginner skier/boarder then? Their imaginations?
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I have been skiing for thirty years, and whilst it's purely anecdotal, my feeling is that the slopes are becoming a trifle more dangerous. This is partly down to sheer numbers but another important factor must surely be piste design. The confluence of home runs into resort centres at the end of the day, coupled with fatigue, an element of rushing and 'gnawed' technique all contribute to accidents. Some of the major French resorts are epsecially bad at this: runs in to Meribel Mottaret are notorious, as well as Val Thorens and the alleged green runs in to Val D'Isere.
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You know it makes sense.
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| paulio wrote: |
| Not until after a few minutes you can't, sometimes. And whilst you're doing so...? |
Whilst you're doing so, at least you're trying. It's fair enough the odd occasion when you can't physically move, but that's not as frequent as the majority of cases.
| paulio wrote: |
| Learner drivers usually get somebody sat next to them with a brake and a clutch, otherwise they'd generally crash at some point - especially in the earliest few hours of learning. |
Yes that's right, but I haven't seen too many nursery slopes and greens/blues with completely blind crests to be honest.
| paulio wrote: |
| Where do you propose people learn their trade when a beginner skier/boarder then? Their imaginations? |
Nursery slopes and greens/blues.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Let's stop being so PC regarding snowboarders. Many of them are a fecking nuisance and mobile accident zones. Plenty of crazy skiers out there too, but your average group of inexperienced yoofs on boards is something to be very wary of. The same yoofs on skis would no doubt be a menace too, except the majority of these kids are drawn to the dark side. Plus skiers and boarders tend to take quite different lines, making collisions more likely. Finally boards don't stop or change direction as quickly as skis do. Rant over
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, having spent the past ten years working with such 'yoof', I maintain that your stats are rubbish. Ratio of skiers to boarders has always been about 50:50 and is quite possibly changing in favour of skis as the 'nuskool' thang becomes the cool fashion. Idiot dangerous behaviour is generally the preserve of young males regardless of their mode of transport.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Idiot dangerous behaviour is generally the preserve of young males regardless of their mode of transport.
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hear hear.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In the last couple of years I've seen more dangerous skiers than boarders.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Idiot dangerous behaviour is generally the preserve of young males regardless of their mode of transport.
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hear hear. |
Indeed, although yoof females aren't far off at times. Not malice, just ignorance. The two chalet staff where we stayed in April were both boarders as it happens, and they had no qualms about going onto steep off-piste, alone (not even keeping sight of one another when in a group) and with relatively lowly technique, at level 4 avy risk and didn't even know what a transceiver was - they were fascinated to look at ours. Scary scary
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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eng_ch, those ones are dangerous largely to themselves, which is their own problem.
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| a.j. wrote: |
Anyway I'm always horrified by the number of friends I send off to lessons who come back not having been told any of the basic rules, or not hauled up by their instructor for skiing beyond their abilities, in all honesty it seems to be encouraged as 'brave' I'm sure thats a part of it.
aj xx |
Hmm ... the instructors I know will soon find a pitch to acquaint the over-confident with their limitations (in a safe kind of way).
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I think the problem with boarders is when they are sitting down another slope use has to be closer to them, esp. if close to a crest before they see them being, a standing skier due to their added height can often be seen sooner. However, if, as Paulio says, standing on a board in the same way as you can on skis is difficult then they don't have any option, making it even more important for them to sit down somewhere sensible. The other option may be to purchase a probe (which I note fold away when not in use) with a flag on top and to raise this when seated on the piste, thus making them more visible earlier
I also think that learners of any snow using group are liable to be more unpredictable and less stoppable than their more more experienced counterparts. I wonder if such people were to voluntarily wear the equivalent of an L plate or a tabbard of a known colour, whether that would encourage other more experienced snow users to give them a wider berth where possible. The result being increased confidence = increased learning curve = increased competence sooner.
I wonder what more experienced snow users think - would you give more ground to someone marked as a beginner/learner? Could/would it help slope safety.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| eng_ch, those ones are dangerous largely to themselves, which is their own problem. |
And to anyone below them and the mountain rescue teams. If it was just themselves, then fine. But it ain't.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| I wonder if such people were to voluntarily wear the equivalent of an L plate or a tabbard of a known colour, whether that would encourage other more experienced snow users to give them a wider berth where possible. The result being increased confidence = increased learning curve = increased competence sooner. |
I will definitely be wearing an L plate when snowboarding in Morzine later this month, as this ^^^^ here ^^^^ is a great idea.
Although people might mistake me for a member of a hen party, since I shall also be wearing a faintly sluttish replica of a bridal gown and a pair of Christmas tree baubles on stalks.
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FAQ
In fact they were pretty scathing about their abilities not only to teach, but to ski beyond a fairly rudimentary level 
