 Poster: A snowHead
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I agree with all those that prefer the word dynamic. You do have to be dynamic to a degree to be a truly good skier, but you absolutely don't need to be agressive. If in a race then clearly agression is important, but for everyday skiing - NO! There are too many agressive skiers on the slopes already - replacing technical skill with agression, to the detrimental experience of everyone else on the piste.
Interestingly I had exactly the same comments as Beanie 1 while working for my Grade 1. When I asked how to achieve this none of the trainers was able to tell me!  I had to work it out for myself. However I also agree with rob@rar, when he says you need to dominate your skis sometimes, but certainly not all the time.
ski Simon asked about the definition of 'good skier'. It is clearly technical proficiency and skill. Just getting down something at the limit of your skill level is not good - just lucky!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I agree with easiski, there is too much aggression without technique or control shown on many slopes. A lot of skiers are fast and aggressive, but don't have good technique. A lot of skiers also seem to have lovely technique but aren't aggressive. I particularly enjoy watching those skiers and boarders who seem to be able to glide down all kinds of slopes without it looking to be an effort.
That said, I've never been told I lack aggression, but then again, I'm only at BASI Alpine Level 1 standard aspiring to Level 2, so a long way off easiski's standard. However I'm only happy to apply aggression AFTER I've got the technique to use it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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docsquid, how are you defining aggression?
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| docsquid wrote: |
| I agree with easiski, there is too much aggression without technique or control shown on many slopes. A lot of skiers are fast and aggressive, but don't have good technique. |
Do you think there is a difference between men and women here ? "Bruit force and ignorance" is a classic male approach to a problem 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I particularly enjoy watching those skiers and boarders who seem to be able to glide down all kinds of slopes without it looking to be an effort.
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Ah yes! On my first holiday, surrounded by struggling Brits in daft outfits (well, it was the '80s) I saw two elderly Austrian women, in their Sunday best church coasts and hats, snaking their way down the slope looking totally in control and relaxed. They became my role models. I aspire to be like that when I'm 80. Gliding quietly and competently down the blacks smiling indulgently at all the young folk indulging in "aggression".  I've a few years left to get some more lessons in....
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rob@rar, I'd say that aggression is actually a state of mind - it is the state of mind that is slightly angry, and channelled into putting more force into your skiing movements. If those movements are technically correct, then the outcome is graceful, and often fast skiing. If it isn't technically good, then the result is often pretty ugly.
If the OP was "do you have to be aggressive to be a good skier", I'd say the answer is No, but if you have to be a good skier for aggressive skiing to look good and be effective, the answer probably is YES.
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| docsquid wrote: |
| it is the state of mind that is slightly angry, and channelled into putting more force into your skiing movements. |
I don't think of it as a state of mind, especially not being angry, but I do describe putting a lot more energy into your skiing as an aggressive style.
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pam w, that's an experience that Mr DS had as well - spurred him on to get involved with BASI instruction and improve technique. One day I'd like to be able to ski like that but I suspect the elderly Austrian ladies that you and Mr DS experienced had probably been skiing since they were 2 years old!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I find that if I get too gung-ho my skiing resembles a bag of "shhhh you know what" rolling down hill. I then have to stop and start again having tried to find the inner peace which comes from the ying, or is it the yang? (Maybe I should take up telemarking).
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| putting a lot more energy into your skiing |
Hurrah!
I was waiting for someone to use the word energy!!
You can be a good recreational tennis player just putting around on a sunday afternoon, in the same way that you can be a good recreational skier just relaxing and turning down the slopes.
However, if you want to play tennis as a sport at a high technical level, and if you want to ski as a sport at a high technical level, then the utilisation of energy becomes all important, both as an input into the equipment, but more importantly harnessing the energy output from the equipment. This is where it becomes intrinsically linked to aggression.
You will never see a centre court wimbledon final, both men and women, played without aggression, in the same way that good dynamic skiers that harness the energy from the equipment will be aggressive, both mentall and physically.
Note that because skiing utilises a large invisible force (gravity) you will not necessarily see the skier "aggressively" work to get energy into the equipment, but nevertheless the technical skill involved in dealing with, harnessing and redirecting this energy will require an aggressive outlook and application. A good skier will often make this look as if he/she is doing nothing, but the very opposite is true. There are lots of things going on that require considerable energy from the skier, it just won't be apparent to the casual onlooker.
As an aside... I am sometimes often deliberately allocated super timid nervous women never ever skiers on private lessons........ mainly because they know that I get them skiing super aggressively both mentally and physically in a very short space of time, and their progress is super accelerated when compared to handling said super timid nervous women with kid gloves 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| There are lots of things going on that require considerable energy from the skier, it just won't be apparent to the casual onlooker. |
That's a good observation. In the first off-piste lesson I ever had I felt I was skiing very badly. I was constantly struggling to stay upright, was being buffetted around by the terrain and the snow, didn't have much control over line or speed, it just felt awful. Then I looked at my instructor who was gliding down the slope as graceful as a swan and I knew that I could never be a good skier. I said this to him and he laughed at me and said it felt exactly the same to him: he was having to work hard, to ski aggressively, to use lots of energy to ski as gracefully as a swan. He then showed me video of me skiing, and while I didn't look swan-like it certainly didn't appear as awful as I felt. In those kinds of conditions he said I needed to dominate the skis, not have them dominate me, and to do this I needed to considerably up the energy levels from regular piste skiing. To me that's not a state of mind, just using a lot more grunt to stay in charge of things 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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veeeight, a physics-based answer that I completely agree with! 
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| Quote: |
In those kinds of conditions he said I needed to dominate the skis, not have them dominate me, and to do this I needed to considerably up the energy levels from regular piste skiing. To me that's not a state of mind, just using a lot more grunt to stay in charge of things
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Maybe it depends on what level you are at, but its not only off piste that rob@rar's, obervation might be true. I know I have made the statment many times regarding me skiing the skis, not the skis skiing me. I went from one phase to the other this year, and I largely agree with rob@rar, it was also to do with a state of mind with me, but I believe the major factor was increased fitness which enable to use of more 'grunt' to stay in charge of the skis. Perhaps its a lack of skill, but I don't think I can get the skis to hang onto the snow with their edges without applying some degree of force to the process. A little aggression may direct this force to the task in hand too.
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You know it makes sense.
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How does "energy" differ from "dynamism"?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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david@mediacopy, Yes - it's called testosterone. One of the reasons (IMO) why there are not so many high level female instructors as male is that the governing bodies want us all to ski the same - like a man!  Obviously many women who ski technically very well will never be able to do this, Testosterone increases the 'fight' tendency and lack of it increases the 'flight' tendency. Putting energy into the ski can be done with touch and fine feeling etc. Agression is not required.
I can only use myself as an example, but, while I consider myself a lazy skier (more so now I'm older), I'm often surprised to find that I must put a lot more pressure/energy into a ski than I think. I know this because soft skis break away, and because I like skis that many people find too stiff. Consequently I have little tolerance for 'ladies' skis!! 
rob@rar, Agreed about the work. I'm again often surprised that people think I'm gliding effortlessly when it feels like bl**dy hard work to me! However putting energy into/onto the ski should not be confused with putting lots of energy into your movements (flapping, leaping up and down and so on).
eng_ch, I don't think it does really.
veeeight, I find that if very timid/frightened terrain selection is the most important thing. Certainly just pushing them, or saying 'confront your fear' or whtever doesn't work. I use the kid glove approach but with gentle pushing from time to time. To be fair though, most of the timid people I teach have already been frightened and are trying to get over it. Total terror is very difficult to deal with other than with kid gloves!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| However putting energy into/onto the ski should not be confused with putting lots of energy into your movements (flapping, leaping up and down and so on). |
Absolutely! Using that energy efficiently is the key to being a good skier. Probably not flapping about unnecessarily, not adopting certain stylistic approaches just because your Austrian instructor 30 years ago used to ski with his legs bolted together and it looked cool, and certainly not expending energy being aggressive in the wrong testosterone driven way
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| How does "energy" differ from "dynamism"? |
To me:
The opposite of dynamic is static.
ie: someone who just stands on their skis, maybe at a set edge angle, and holds it there throughout the turn. That is a static skier. A dynamic skier will not hold a static position, nor the same edge angle throughout the turn, he/she is either increasing the edge angle, or decreasing the edge angle. The skiing joints are continually in motion. No position is held in a static position.
Energy:
One of the main reasons for flexing and extending in skiing, is to control the ski/snow interaction. This is achived mainly through pressure control. Two main reasons why many ski schools get their students to "go up and down" (this is a whole new topic and can of worms) is 1. To flatten the skis at transistion and 2. To alleviate the pressure buildup at the end of the turn. A skilled skier can utilise this pressure buildup to do many things, of which one is to help get the skis from one side of the body, to the other, a racer will build pressure in the fall line (using resistance of their joints and gravity) to help accelerate his/her skis out of the turn, enabling them to generate speed and win races.
Now: I can ski dynamically, and continually increase the edge angle throughout the turn. BUT. I can choose either to build pressure in the fall line and therefore load the ski up with "energy" - and the result of this will be an explosive acceleration out of the turn, OR, I can choose to absorb the pressure (by flexing my joints through the turn), and won't be left with any acceleration out of the turn from the skis.
Thus, Energy and Dynamism are two totally different things in my book. They are sometimes related, but definitely not in all situations.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, good description. The two things can happen in tandem (and should if you're skiing well) but you can also have one without the other in which case you're not getting the most out of your skis and the forces which are generated.
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I am dynamic in the sense there is movement in my skiing in the way veeeight, describes. But I'm not aggressive.
easiski, I think I would like a lesson with you! I can't remember the last time I was taught by a woman.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
veeeight, I find that if very timid/frightened terrain selection is the most important thing. Certainly just pushing them, or saying 'confront your fear' or whtever doesn't work. I use the kid glove approach but with gentle pushing from time to time. To be fair though, most of the timid people I teach have already been frightened and are trying to get over it. Total terror is very difficult to deal with other than with kid gloves!
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I wish I knew and/or could articulate how I overcame the fear this year, then I want to be able to put it in a book and sell it to nervous skiers and make a fortune
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| easiski wrote: |
| One of the reasons (IMO) why there are not so many high level female instructors as male is that the governing bodies want us all to ski the same - like a man! |
Good point. Raises some interesting questions....
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david@mediacopy, I hadn't spotted that - are there inherent differences between the methods used by women and men that go beyond the natural differences in the respective centres of gravity? If there is, then Easiski must have a valid point. Should women be taught by women and men by men? Or at least if taught by a different sex should people be taught in a manner that is sympathetic to the the respective gender that is under instruction? Does this already happen? It's a point that I hadn't considered, but I was taught by a woman for the first time this year and it was a different teaching experience.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The first 3 instructors I had all happened to be women... pure chance. One Aussie in Canada, one French and one Easiski. I've had one lesson from a bloke (Euan) and I must say that they all hit the spot. It may be that women are more adept at tailoring their manner to the audience's requirements whereas some men may not pick up on this. But that may be more a thing of the past as there now appears to be more emphasis placed on two way communication in sports coaching techniques.
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veeeight, Good description of energy vs dynamicism you studying for your CSCF 3
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, I think easiski was referring to psychological differences. Skis work the same way for men and women so while there are obvious physical differences both are trying to achieve the same thing.
skimottaret, Sounds like you were in competition there
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I don't think it's necessary for women to be taught by women and vice-versa, but I'm more concerned with the non-professional or 'formula' ski teachers trying to get women to think and ski like a man. Firstly the physiology is different, and secondly the psycological factors are quite different. Many women are mothers and that influences their approach too: 'who's going to get the kids off to school if I hurt myself?' even if not conscious these influences are still in the back of the brain. The sad thing is, is that many women are made to feel inadequate if they are not aggressive in their skiing, do not want to hurl themselves down that steep black run etc.
skimottaret, I suspect what you've been taught has less to do with male or female instructors than with the stage you're at in your skiing. You've tried to damp down the wildness and may have become passive as a result. I absolutely don't agree that the best skiers are charging hard all the time. The whole point of having very good technique is that you can ski however you feel like (assuming you're not teaching at the time of course).
veeeight, Good description and I agree, but I think many people use the words interchangeably anyway. In general, I don't think that the word agression in skiing is used as it would be in normal life, but therefore is misunderstood and certain men take it to mean attack anything and everything (including children) in their way!
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You know it makes sense.
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| easiski wrote: |
| In general, I don't think that the word agression in skiing is used as it would be in normal life, but therefore is misunderstood and certain men take it to mean attack anything and everything (including children) in their way! |
I think you're right, unfortunately!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Horses for courses... you want to attack something that can trip you up in the wrong place..????
No hard and fast, just think about it.
I do think people want the whole thing down in writing..and to ski by numbers, sometimes.. you can't always get this stuff out of a book or on the internet...
If you can, you do, if you can't, or don't want to..your call.
A good skier is a safe skier you weigh up the risks.
To me it is all about the level of commitment as and when....... and who wants to be charging all the time. Aggession is too strong a word, IMV Men tend to be a bit more gung-ho..which sometimes works... and sometimes it doesn't.
Womem tend to ski within..and that sometimes holds them back.... but does it REALLY matter..?
Competition is another thing entirely, IMO
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think assertiveness rather than aggression is what's called for.
If you take control of the skis and 'tell them' what to do in the right way, there's relatively little effort required and aggression doesn't come into it.
Since it's the front of the ski that you really need to be in command of, the assertive skier tends to be on the balls of their feet and directing the show while the timid skier sits back on their heels and lets the skis lead the way with more frustrating consequences.
(Apologies of this repeats anyone else's comments above, I haven''t had time to read the whole topic but I thought the OP was an interesting question)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you're skiing on piste, you can be fairly relaxed about the whole business - your technique sees you through. I find though, when I get to mogully/cruddy pistes, I have to feel stronger with my position/legs etc. So I wondered whether, say, mogul skiing would require an aggressive (I suppose I mean stronger/grit your teeth) attitude. I do find moguls harder work, but this could well be my lack of proficiency.
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erica2004,
I find the opposite. Moguls, powder, breakable crust, even steeps i’d say, do not require aggression. To ski well on piste however, does. And by aggression I mean power, energy, NOT recklessness.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, I think on piste you feel the power and energy of the skis.
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I find the need for aggressive/assertive skiing when I'm skiing manky snow, by which I mean 10-24 cm of heavy wet snow that can push your skis around then giving a growl helps me tighten up and puts me back into the drivers seat, even when tired. It also works with big soft moguls.
Zipping down a piste is not the time for a growling, tight, hard charging stance, unless there are gates present, or it's afternoon and you just need a little extra to pump up the legs to get to that beer/wine IMO.
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I totally disagree, and the reason being that it's very easy to cruise down easy pistes with zero effort required. You have to make a concious effort to inject energy into your skiing. Bumps, steeps etc are not for cruising, harder to ski and hence less concious need to inject energy.
Does that make any sense at all?! I know what I'm trying to say!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beanie1, pinhead I really don't know what you mean by "energy", "aggressive", "assertive"?
Is it about extending the skis away from the direction of CoM travel?
Is it about steering the skis away from the direction of CoM travel
Is it about holding the steered course of a ski as the snow attempts to throw it around?
Is it about rapidity of edge sets?
Is it about picking a line as far away from a fall line as you can sustain speed on (thereby asserting yourself as more than just a ball rolling downhill?)
Is it about speed along the line of travel?
Is it about greater turn forces (shortest turns possible, close to the fall line)?
An example: Imagine Mt. Hood in early June this year. The day would start with 6-9 inches of fresh, wet large grain snow that would, over the day, incorporate into the underlying slush.
The "energetic*" skiers would all too often get plain stuck. Their skis would point in a different direction from the direction of travel of their CoM. The good ones wouldn't fall over just stop. The speed freaks just straight lined everything looking for harder snow patches to do quick edge sets on. Can't say I would have called either of those "good skiing".
The "lazy" skiers who kept their skis and CoM on the same line were able to go anywhere on the mountain. That was some good skiing even though some would have called it "park and ride".
????
* what I think of as "energetic", as I don't understand what you do.
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| comprex wrote: |
| Is it about extending the skis away from the direction of CoM travel? |
Wrong way round?
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