 Poster: A snowHead
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| I know that hire shops are only allowed to set up to 6 |
I didn't know that. Is that worldwide, Europe, or just a few countries?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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TallTone,
Din 6...???
Not heard that one or ever experienced it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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vetski, you just click on it. can take a while as they're quite big.
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vetski, JT, that's every French hire shop I've ever been in. Some have advised me that if I want to up it, I can, but they're not allowed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| TallTone wrote: |
| vetski, JT, that's every French hire shop I've ever been in. Some have advised me that if I want to up it, I can, but they're not allowed. |
Sounds like utter drivel. Best avoiding hiring skis in France.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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snowbunny, tricky if you're skiing in France and don't have your own skis...
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| TallTone wrote: |
| snowbunny, tricky if you're skiing in France and don't have your own skis... |
The solutions to this seem quite simple to me.
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The chart says 7.5 for myself (70 kg 5' 11'') yet I ski 8.5. Always thought that there should be more definition in the skier ability section, for example a 1-10 or something similar. Guessing this would overcomplicate matters but it seems to make sense.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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TallTone, On the rare occasions I've hired recently (always in France) they've asked my weight, but I've then told them the DIN I wanted (nowadays 9 on heel and 8/8.5 on toe) and they've set it to that. Only occasion I can remember when that didn't happen they didn't ask me anything and sent me out with skis set on 5  . Took about half a run before I got my screwdriver out and set it to something sensible.
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| spyderjon, do you mean that skiing with the weight too far back puts strain on the knee ligaments irrespective of whether you fall? |
I'm not spyderjon, but I will point out:
http://www.vermontskisafety.com/kneefriendly.php
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Three types of situations can lead to the Phantom Foot syndrome:
* Attempting to get up while still moving after a fall.
* Attempting a recovery from an off-balance position.
* Attempting to sit down after losing control.
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Also you mentioned me specifically "middle-aged (no, no, please no!!) unfit female novice" - what ought such a person do to improve fitness in a way that helps protect knees? |
Jump (hop really) training with soft landings.
http://www.skinet.com/article.jsp?ID=1000038470
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In explaining the gender inequities of ACL injuries, researchers point, in part, to muscle differences. "When you examine how women and men recruit knee muscles, you find significant differences," says Dr. Deborah Saint-Phard, a jump-training advocate and assistant professor of rehabilitation medicine at Cornell University. "The hamstrings are critical knee stabilizers. Studies have shown that men, when actively stabilizing the knee, recruit their hamstrings first, whereas women tend to recruit their quadriceps first. Add to this anatomical differences like hip width, joint laxity, and ACL size, and you have a recipe for disaster."
Jump training may help avert that disaster --not only through soft landings but also by building strength where women need it. "A healthy and safe knee demands that the surrounding muscles are strong," says Dr. Saint-Phard. The bottom line, she says: "Jump training is the only intervention proven to reduce ACL injuries in female athletes." |
Yes, that means that strong quads can help you rip the knee faster.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, that's really interesting stuff - so doing loads of squats might be counterproductive as we could really do with improving hamstrings. When I spoke with a trainer at the gym about pre-skiing stuff the main recommendation was squats using a large gym ball to roll down the wall. I didn't carry them on though because I started to get pain in one knee on starting to rise - the side I have a damaged ankle. The reason was deemed to be there could be a slight "wrong" angle somewhere in the joints. Instead I used the leg-press machine with no bother - the one whre you sit and push a plate forwards away from you with both feet. Which exercises I wonder strengthen the hamstring and are most beneficial for women skiers of a certain age?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Butterfly, strengthening hamstrings is a quite common goal and there are a number of exercise programs one could follow.
The article above has a slightly different focus, however, in recruiting hamstrings to respond to a specific situation, not in strengthening them. The idea is that you already have ham strength, just don't use it for best knee defence. Hence, the soft-landing jumps, hops, whatsits: "Let no one hear you hop".
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So does the silent soft jump cause you to recruit the hamstrings rather than the quads? Very interestingly a ski instructor at Tamworth (Stef) that my sister & I had a lesson with last summer asked me to do precisely that exercise with skis off at the bottom of the slope - bloomin' hard in ski-boots! He didn't give a reason for it though but it was in response to me being a bit stiff when skiing (which I still am  )
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sorry guys but i found this regarding women and hormonal levels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cruciate_ligament
basically it says:
Hormonal Levels
According to Dr. Kurt Spinder, "Females have an increased frequency, or in other words a greater risk to tear their ACL at mid-cycle ovulation." [2] Spinder recently conducted a study focused on the stage of the menstrual cycle for 65 women with ACL injuries and his discovery may mean there is a correlation between a woman's hormones and her susceptibility to an ACL injury. Increased production of estrogen and other feminine hormones may cause a woman's motor skills to decrease and/or relax the ACL and surrounding ligaments
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| So does the silent soft jump cause you to recruit the hamstrings rather than the quads? |
Yes.
It also compels one to stack the upper body in a front-to-back balanced position, which is what I think your instructor's goal may have been.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i think i'll be jumping a lot when i'm allowed.
hows the leg Al Phorn
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This thread is a bit like looking up ailments on the net: I'm now thoroughly confused and slightly worried!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, there are things it is good to copy from cats: agility, limberness, worry levels.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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comprex, 
Al Phorn, taratibu2, hope you both recover really quickly.
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Al Phorn, so you are starting physio soon? i've put a post on that link. I think having physio last week did a lot of good for me.
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Hurtle, thanks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have a little to offer here. Keen skier and somewhat less keen doctor. I dont believe cruciate failure is caused by posture. The binding release is dependent on the torque applied. The comments relating to slow and steady as apposed to quick and dramatic may have some validity particularly for older bindings. Ladies have looser ligaments and more joint laxity,smaller ligaments also explain their injuries. Therfore age, sex, sole plate length, experience and style are all important, not to mention ski type, stiffness and snow conditions.
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pwahlrab, not sure where you're going with that, but welcome to the forum.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pwahlrab, LOL just great. I'm hypermobile.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| taratibu2 wrote: |
| ...his discovery may mean there is a correlation between a woman's hormones and her susceptibility to an ACL injury. Increased production of estrogen and other feminine hormones may cause a woman's motor skills to decrease and/or relax the ACL and surrounding ligaments |
My osteopath (female) said there is a similar correlation also between cycle and backs "going". Advice was if you feel less than on top form, it may be your body has a good reason for saying take it steady, so listen to it.
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| vetski wrote: |
| .......I'll stay on the Type I settings....... |
That's fine till you get in to heavy off-piste snow like you were skiing at VT last week. A type I setting will mean you'll almost certainly walk-out of your bindings when you don't want to. My type III chart setting is 7 but my bindings were set at 9 last week, which was reasssuring when Phillippe said "don't fall here".
Whilst it could easily be misinterpreted (so I say it with caution), for type III/III+ skiers a setting of 1 DIN per 10kg of body weight is usually a good starting point - but this could leave you vunerable to a slow rearward twisting fall.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Fri 2-05-08 20:50; edited 2 times in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Butterfly, its funny coz i had a bad feeling about it anyway. I had a bad back before i went. I told Karen and Ken that my left foot just wasnt coming round to meet the right, and i hate the Plein Sud. All things that should have said dont do it. Then i went down the Plein Sud and couldnt get my left leg round and voila!!!!! a snapped ACL. I should listen to my gut instinct.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Did my knee a little damage on a frozen mogel a few years ago.piqued my interest in the DIN minefield. It is true that oestragen loosens the female ligaments and lower settings should apply. Not only in France is six the top rental setting as Austria seem to have similar rules. Ischgl 08. Sitting at home bemoaning the end of season Elton John concert there tomorrow.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Whilst it could easily be misinterpreted (so I say it with caution), for type III/III+ skiers a setting of 1 DIN per 10kg of body weight is usually a good starting point - but this could leave you vunerable to a slow rearward twisting fall. |
Do you think this is valid for everyone ? There are three cases to consider:
Weight and height both selecting the same skier code,
Weight selecting lower code,
Height selecting lower code.
My type III+ setting would be DIN 8 according to the Salomon chart while your formula would put me on 7.5 (75kg).
For male racers, DIN = weight in stone seems to work fine. I got a ski the wrong side of a slalom gate in January and the binding released without really feeling it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rjs wrote: |
| .....Do you think this is valid for everyone ? |
No I don't, hence the caution, but it works pretty well for those that aren't particularly tall/short for their weight. I'd day the same for your DIN/stone guide which puts users at an even higher setting. I've a couple of racers customers who've always used that method with no problems. Usually (but not always) higher level skiers tend to have gleaned a better understanding of the impication of binding settings during their learning & so have a sensible approach making adjustments progressively & with plenty of testing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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taratibu2, hindsight's wonderful, but we live our lives & stuff happens eh? I am so glad to hear that you seem to be making good progress though and hope you (& Agenterre & Alphorn) have speedy full recoveries.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rjs, so do you set yours to your stone weight of almost 12 when racing?
spyderjon i asked this earlier but no one answered. Would you know if DIN should be set to you weight kitted out in boots, backpack etc or do they assume your "dripping wet" weight and make an allowance in the charts? I havent weighted all my gear but i am guessing it could be substantial...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, sorry, didn't spot your question. The DIN chart is designed to be used with the skier's stark boIIock naked weight as that's what everyone knows. So the more clobber you're carrying have the more on the side of safety the setting will be.
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spyderjon, merci  the original Q wasnt directed at you just a general remark but thanks for clearing it up for me, i have never really been sure about that one, but it certainly makes sense in terms of being on the side of safety as you rightly point out.
I like this link as it has the III+ setting as well http://www.dinsetting.com/
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skimottaret, IIRC there are some race bindings that don't even start until 12. I keep mine at about 9 - so that's pretty much on spyderjon's rule of thumb - with maybe a bit lower for plastic - and that's probably fair for a decrepit old fart racer. If I were 20 years younger I'd be expecting to up them by probably about 2 settings. I probably still ought to up the heel though as that does take a bit of a pounding at the start (and we had a couple of guys jump out of theirs on the start last weekend).
I think once you get to a reasonably advanced skier level then the DIN chart is really just a guide, and you get a pretty good feel for what's required. I've racked mine up about 1 DIN over the last year or two, as I'm now skiing harder. There's so much room for fiddling the figures anyway with skier type (viz type 3+: "For skiers who desire visual indicator settings higher than settings for a Type 3 skier.", a.k.a. "do what the hell you like") it's clear there's nothing hard and fast. At beginner/intermediate levels it's probably fair to stick with it pretty much verbatim though.
If it's going pear-shaped at low speed, never discount the opportunity for a strategic dive - and try and keep your legs together in the process to avoid any of that nasty twisting stuff.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 3-05-08 0:41; edited 1 time in total
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rjs, so do you set yours to your stone weight of almost 12 when racing? |
They are set to 11 all the time, they won't go below 9 anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rjs, Interesting, I think the stone = DIN rule of thumb may work for young fit racers but i was curious what you do as you are (I am guessing) more in the "Masters" age group... Me I am 15 stone and definately not fit, nor young and wouldnt consider a 15 DIN
I recon graham has it right in that once you get into 3+ territory you are using your own judgment. Interesting for me is the difference between recomendations between 6 4" and 6 5", is 2 full DIN points with weight making little/no difference (i am 6 4). I tend to go with 9 on piste and 10 for off or more agressive skiing. if i was 6 5" thy say 11.5
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At 5"11, S&R set my bindings to when I was a weedy 11 3/4 stone to 6. At 15 stone, I set mine to 7 and 8 respectively.
Anyone wishing to give me a din setting. Sole length 315 (size 9 boots) and I ski as fast as terrain will let me.
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FAQ
I reckon you've hit the nail on the head. I also think it follows that everytime you put a pair of planks on your feet and confront your body with potentially adverse random events, you run the risk of injury. You either adopt a responsible attitude to risk versus your "skill", or you pack up and do something less dangerous. Getting the DIN "right" is only part of the rich tapestry that is skiing. 
