 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| nbtI would (mostly) trust an instructor, though the first one I had took me down a slope way before I was ready for it - took 1hr to get me down 1100m - and at the start I believed I could do it, so it wasn't that - it really was too hard, given the icy/muddy conditions. |
No, really, you were ready for it in tems of your technique. The instructor wouldn't have taken you down otherwise. It's your belief that your technique is good enought that needs to improve at this point, not your technique itself
| Butterfly wrote: |
| I haven't done group lessons before for fear of being chucked off the course |
Butterfly, You won't be chucked off any course. You might be moved to a more suitable group (either up or down, depending on your progession), but you will be offered lessons.
| Butterfly wrote: |
| My only concern is that I have heard a few worrying comments about some ESF group lessons being very large groups working to the speed/desires of the boldest/fastest members of the group |
I've had good and bad experiences with group lessons, with ESF and with other ski schools. I;d very much suggest having a good read of this thread
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=34003
in fact I see you;ve already contributed - just make sure you take action on the salient opints about communicating with your instructor
| Butterfly wrote: |
| As you know I'm one of the nervous ones |
And herein lies the main problem, rather than in any variation in grading. You need to feel comfortable on skis, and while you're nervous you're being tentative, so you're not geting the smooth flowing moves that you see other people doing, which is causing you to work harder, so you're getting tired, and your technique suffers, and you have to work harder and.... and it's a vicious circle.
I appreciate that it's easy for me to say it, and that not everyone can do it, but the best thing to do is relax and pick up a bit more speed. A certain amount of speed helps with making turns easier, being relaxed helps you to stay in shape. As I said, if it was only that easy... Mrs NBT also suffers from lack of confidence, I know her technique is good enough (and other have also taken the same view) but she struggles to follow me when she's feeling nervous. I found my skiing improved tenfold by following better skiier down slopes that I'd never have attempted on my own - and that's right from moving from blues to reds, to moving from on-pisted to off-piste.
Sorry, I'm meandering here. I think what I'm trying to say is believe that you *can* do things rather than worrying about what might cause you to fail, and things will improve
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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taking your first steps on that beautiful road from Butterfly to Caterpillar
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Well, that's not the way it usually works. After a brief, orgasmic, day as a butterfly it's usually downhill all the way....
The serious answer to this question is that it's vital for nervous skiers to go to the right resort. In my experience people are OK with instructors, almost always - but often feel very worried about striking off on their own and end up doing the same circuit over an over again. I have a brother in law who can manage any blue, and most red slopes, fine, provided the snow is not too bad, that he can take his time and THAT IT DOESN'T HAVE DROP-OFF EDGES. They freak him out completely. I spent a whole day last week sussing out where I'd be able to take him when he comes out for a week in March. Several runs I thought would be fine had "edge" bits which he'd hate. I have taken several very nervous skiers around our area, very successfully, in part because I know it very well, but also because as a wobbly snowboarder I really do know how it feels to stand at the top of a blue run and think OMG. But I can sideslip! Some survival skills are essential and that's the top one. You need a good side-slip and supportive friends who know the resort and can tell when a run which was easy last week is going to be very difficult, or vice versa. It's no different from many other sports; a stretch of water which is a piece of cake in certain states of wind and tide can be a death trap on other days.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| nbt wrote: |
You need to feel comfortable on skis, and while you're nervous you're being tentative, so you're not geting the smooth flowing moves that you see other people doing, which is causing you to work harder, so you're getting tired, and your technique suffers, and you have to work harder and.... and it's a vicious circle.
I appreciate that it's easy for me to say it, and that not everyone can do it, but the best thing to do is relax and pick up a bit more speed. A certain amount of speed helps with making turns easier, being relaxed helps you to stay in shape. As I said, if it was only that easy... Mrs NBT also suffers from lack of confidence, I know her technique is good enough (and other have also taken the same view) but she struggles to follow me when she's feeling nervous. I found my skiing improved tenfold by following better skiier down slopes that I'd never have attempted on my own - and that's right from moving from blues to reds, to moving from on-pisted to off-piste.
Sorry, I'm meandering here. I think what I'm trying to say is believe that you *can* do things rather than worrying about what might cause you to fail, and things will improve |
You're absolutely right. I keep getting asked how I can be so nervous when I look so much in control!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Butterfly, can you identify what, exactly, you're so nervous about? I am sitting here typing this with a very stiff neck and slightly pulled stomach muscles from a mighty crash when I caught an edge on my snowboard on Thursday. Smacked my head - was glad I had a helmet on (though I now have the whiplash...). I was picking up speed compared to my usual very slow rate of progress - and I know exactly why I crashed. I dithered about turning - which side of the "slow down" fence to go! So I sort of went one way, and sort of went the other. Hence catching the edge. Nothing on skis (at least nothing I've ever done on skis) slams you onto the piste quite so hard. And the snow was hard, too. I survived. 20 minutes in a deck chair with a cold beer did the trick, though I had felt quite sick immediately after the initial impact. We're not talking couloirs, rocks, bottomless powder, trees. We're talking gentle pistes, at gentle speeds (the speed I was going only felt high because I'm a beginner boarder, but on my skis it would have been nothing). Do you often fall? Are you really worried about falling? The best skier, by light years, in my family is the one who has always fallen - and still falls - more than the rest of us put together. He goes for everything, complete commitment. I'm not suggesting that people like you and me should act like an athletic 30 year old who has been skiing since he was 6, but a few falls can be a big confidence booster, oddly.
nbt is right about picking up a bit of speed and relaxing. Have you tried skiing to music? Being more relaxed can help a lot. And you can turn in time to the music! Just try not to sing on button lifts; you get funny looks. Especially if it's Monteverdi....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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pam w, I am indeed scared of falls which could result in injury - that's the key issue. You see I have some permanent damage from a serious ankle break/dislocation that I did 5 years ago and which caused immense worry and hassle for the family tool. On that occasion, a week before Christmas, I simply got my foot caught in the dark, in a churchyard of all places, and fell backwards. I ended up in hospital having 2x surgery, getting home on Christmas Eve.
I have not fallen many times as I have taken care not to, but actually after a fall I have been more relaxed because it has happened and I have not hurt myself - am sure you know what I mean, If I was pretty certain I'd bounce straight back each time, I'd be a lot more relaxed. Hubby (non-skier, not coming on the trip) too is very worried that I will hurt myself - and has bought me a shiny new helmet to take with me!
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I simply got my foot caught in the dark, in a churchyard of all places, and fell backwards.
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That just goes to show that injuries can happen anywhere, anytime. In an icy ski resort I am much more nervous about injuries falling on the pavement than on the piste. More accidents in the home - on step ladders etc - or on the roads - than on the piste! It's really hard to relax; I don't underestimate it at all. But being a learner snowboarder, I have found it essential - some advice I got on Snowheads (from Masque) about just sort of sagging into your boots when you have to do a long stretch on one edge of the board, helped me immensely. I find the music absolutely essential, too, and have a series of "snowboarding tracks" (which don't include Monteverdi....) which get me in the groove. I'm sure being stoned would help.  In the absence of the means to get stoned, have a vin chaud! If you do fall, the more relaxed you are, and the less you fight it, the better. I kid myself that I LOOK like a relaxed snowboarder - I even have the baggy trousers as they are the only ones that will go on over my Dainese impact shorts! If you look and feel the part, it does help. Get some music, and dance down the slopes.
I hope having your helmet will help you feel more confident that a fall will not result in a severe injury. You can cope with a minor injury! A skiing fall is unlikely to result in anything as complicated and painful as your ankle injury. The fact that you have felt more relaxed after falling suggests that this psychological barrier is the biggest one for you to overcome. Maybe (and this is a really serious suggestion) you should have an introductory private lesson on a snowboard. You would fall a fair bit, and you would almost certainly hurt, and you would almost certainly do yourself absolutely no injury whatsoever, with a good instructor and wrist guards. You two legs are firmly strapped to the board, so no horrible twisty knee things (which are the injuries which I'm scared of) are likely. Getting up after a fall (onto your toe edge) is hugely easier on a board than on skis.
Two hours on a snowboard would quite likely put paid to your fear of falling. You would also enoy the feeling of mastery when you get back on your skis! Just don't tell the old man...
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SNOWBOARD, PamW??? Eeek!
I can see where you are coming from, but think I will stick to skis for the moment. I have not yet actually skied properly for a full week's holiday so am really hoping for some major progress this time and some nice soft stuff that will be forgiving of falls rather than the ice/mud combination I faced on my first attempt last year.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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the ice/mud combination I faced on my first attempt last year.
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that's really horrible. The conditions make a big difference. One thing about going a bit faster - you sort of slide along a bit if you fall, rather than going down with the kind of thump you did in the churchyard! Just make sure your bindings are set really, really, light. When are you off?
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I was told when away to have bindings set at 4, though Xscape disagreed and said 6, so after that I just confidently asked for " 4 please"! I go next Sat, 16th.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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What about?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yep, a slope isn't necessarily graded at ideal snow condition.
Ice and mud are much better than rock, gravel, grass, tree roots, water ....
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Frosty the Snowman,
Couldn't agree more about Santons - this year was the first time I haven't actively hated coming down it. The snow was good so the moguls were soft rather than icy and we skied it in the morning at the end of January so we weren't fighting for space with everyone who doesn't want to come down Epaule du Charvet trying to come home on it, making it a bit like King's Cross Station on a Friday night. Because it tends to get so crowded, it is difficult to get up much speed safely at the end, meaning some major poling to get back to the village.
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You know it makes sense.
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Butterfly, OT comments, but relevant to your confidence problem - which ISTM is the underlying reason for this thread. You need to know that you will be able to "get down" any slope you find yourself on by accident. As pam w said (and we may also have said elesewhere), the sideslip is your friend here. I think it's the most important skill a skier will ever learn, and feel it should be taught in every skier's the first week. We've had some heated discussion on this here before, but I can't stress how important a skill I feel this is. It's also one that can get missed out nowadays as it's not one that fits into the current obsessionof "using the shape of the ski". If you've not learned how to do this yet (and even if you have had an introduction), try and get your next instructor to spend some time on this as a matter or urgency. Not only straight down but half forwards, and if possible half backwards too. Once you can do this you need never feel the "oh poo-poo, I'm stuck" moment again. If your group man won't do it, well kick up a fuss....or maybe hire someone for a 1hour private to get that sorted.
Second thing is to get some falls under your belt. Once you've done so, you'll find they're not so bad after all and have one less thing to worry about. Like Pam's son, I normally fall over more than the rest of the group put together, and I think not having that fear of falling is one of the reasons I've progressed pretty quickly. It may sound silly, but even at expert level one of my instructors always goes through a fall-recovery exercise on the first or second day of a course (although that's actually about self-arrest to stop a slide on a steep slope). Find a soft bit of snow at the side of a not too steep piste (but not too flat or deep, as it'll then be harder to get up again) and practice falling over. Uphill [u]and[/b] downhill, sideways and forwards (I won't recommend deliberately falling over backwards because of the risk of damaging your knees). Probably worth doing with a friend to help you back up to start with, but you do need to learn and practice how to get back up by yourself. When you fall, keep your feet together, and if possible up from the snow, so your legs don't get twisted by the ground. (Different rules if you're on a steep slope though - but that's not the issue here). Also probably helpful if you can soften the body to roll into it a bit, and fall to the side rather that straight forward (my former hobby of skydiving probably helps a bit here too). When getting back up again, manoeuvre your skis directly downhill from before trying to get up, as you're then working with the slope to get you back up again and not against it. You are highly unlikely to be able to lever yourself up from lying on the tails of your skis (sylph-like teens and fit mountain-men can, but it's a bit tough for the likes of us), so if you do get in that position roll around until you can move your skis to being below you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| the sideslip is your friend here. I think it's the most important skill a skier will ever learn, and feel it should be taught in every skier's the first week. |
What he said.
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, thanks for that - yes indeedee - confidence is something I am lacking, but the enthusiasm's there to make up for it!
Sideslips - no, never been taught - had a go myself once or twice and just ended up sliding off forwards or backwards - couldn't get the sideways bit! Hoping to fill in that gap next week.
Falls. Have not taken many such that I remember most of them! Nobody has ever shown me how to fall, but several have had goes trying to teach me to get up & failed, with me resorting to the skis off method! Interesting what you say about not falling backwards because that is exactly what I did the 1st time I fell. I was going too fast to risk turning and couldn't stop so just sat down - had no idea what else to do! Then there was the failure of the legs to raise me to standing getting off a chairlift - and I ended up flat on my back and my knee hurt, but not seriously luckily. Hopefully I might get some help next week on that too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| I was going too fast to risk turning and couldn't stop so just sat down - had no idea what else to do! |
If you elect to fall it should be sideways onto your hip/side, never backwards (which could result in speeding down the mountain as you sit on the tails of your skis).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| me resorting to the skis off method! |
it can be very hard to get up - it's far easier on a steep slope, of course. On the flat, it's easy to feel like a stranded whale. Nowt wrong with taking the skis off if you have to. It's quite nice to have a friend give you a hand - saves a lot of energy.
Butterfly, if you've not had a full week's skiing yet, don't be too hard on yourself - it should make a big difference. With the side-slipping, it's an easy thing to practice just on your own. Not rocket science. I tend to fiddle around sideslipping whilst waiting for people to adjust their boots, find their lipsalve, read messages on their mobiles, wipe their noses, faff around. If you experiment with moving your weight forward and back (which will make you slip forward and back) you'll soon find the mid point, and go straight down. Give yourself some time, it will come. Need to do it from the ankles. And don't worry about being demoted; you could well find you are one of the stronger skiers in your group. Also, having done quite a few group lessons, my experience is that they are more usually geared to the slower members of the group, rather than the faster/bolder ones. Else there would be a string of bodies left across the mountains. If you do feel uncomfortable you can ask to be moved.
Stop worrying; this is supposed to be fun. You can make really good progress in a week.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks Pam - I am a touch apprehensive, but so so excited! I suppose part of me can't quite believe I will make the progress I so desperately want to make, but I am determined to do my best! I am at the moment trying to resist the urge to start packing, though I confess I have started to collect a few bits together on the spare bed!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yoda, Given that the issue was taking skis off because it is hard to gte back to your feet with them on, I hardly thnik it is likley to be a steep slope 
As Pam said, it is much easier to get back to your feet on a steeper slope than on a shallow one (plus by the time you are skiing slopes of that steepness, you will have had a lot more practice at getting up after falls).
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...... for me the choice has ended up as either take the skis off, stand up, put them back on..... or stay put on the deck unless someone strong is there to give me a hand up! It is partly not having developed the knack and partly the lack of the right strength with which to elevate myself, but I am sure these will come eventually. Maybe I should try it in a safe area, rather than be in the position of having fallen and being a touch stressed to start with. Some people have said their instructors have done sessions on falling/getting up - sounds beneficial.#
On the topic of falling, you've all said to fall on your hip. I think there's been a reluctance in me to do that, because the last time I fell onto a hip it resulted in a break to a pelvic bone followed by 6 weeks off games! This was as a result of an "unscheduled dismount" from a large nappy horse when I was trying to learn to ride about 15 years ago. I'd got as far as being happy in the trot and was taken out on a "gentle hack". My bloomin' thing decided it had been far enough, did a rapid u-turn which dislodged me sideways, losing a stirrup and it then set off back homewards at a gallop dumping me out of the side door! We were a few miles away, in the middle of nowwhere. Having dumped me the horse had stopped in the next field for a snack, so someone retrieved it & although I couldn't stand I was hauled back on board for the most painful ride I've ever had, back to the stables. As the pain didn't subside & I still couldn't walk several hours later, I was dispatched to A&E!
I guess however that falling sideways whilst sliding, hopefully onto soft-ish snow, results in far less impact than coming off a 16hh horse at some speed onto a stubble field.
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Butterfly, if you've had a fall like that off a horse then falls on the snow are absolutely nothing to worry about. I've just got back into skiing after a 5 year break and have been the last 2 weekends to braehead. The first week i got quite confident picking up speed and stuff but was still snowplowing, so this week decided to try and correct some of that which ended up in me gathering too much speed and hitting the deck quite a few times. I too struggle to get up with my ski's on too, but it is easier when you get on steeper slopes as you are almost vertical anyway 
I'm another nervous skier though and do have a go at blues and greens i don't know but get a bit panicky. Last time wewent away we were in ADH and set off on a few nice looking blues only to find a supersteep bit, but i actually found i could get down them as long as i took my time and then the 2nd time i did it it was much easier.
I hope you have a nice holiday
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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charlichops, thank you
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GrahamN, I think you are totally right about fear of falling. My wife doesn't like falling. When she does (very rarely) she always hurts herself somehow. I think it is because she gets so tense. Naturally she denies this
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Butterfly, experiences like those you have reported will of course make you nervous, which is why I suggested you need to get a few skiing ones under your belt - to see that (in general) they are not that bad. If you tend to bruise/break easily it may be worth investing in some impact shorts, as pam w (and I) wear. I doubt it's really necessary, particularly at your current level, but may save a bit of pain if you fall over on a hard piste, and will take away a bit of that fear. Won't do anything for twisting injuries though, so you still need to get practice at learning how to fall with your legs together (ooh er, missus ) which will result in more falls onto your hips. The downside is that impact shorts don't do a huge amount for your silhouette  (well, they do, but not in a good way).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just to back up what people are saying about it being much easier to get back up on a steeper slope. My instructor practised falling and getting back up and I just couldn't do it at all without someone giving me a hand, however this was on a completely flat bit. After that I decided I just didn't want to fall as I couldn't get back up. It was only when i got a bit more confident that I started falling and discovered how much easier it is to get up on a slope, on a pretty steep slope you can basically just stand up, I still can't get up on the flat and would just take my skis off there.
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FAQ
Hopefully you will get someone as kind & considerate 
As you know I'm one of the nervous ones - I haven't done group lessons before for fear of being chucked off the course because of not being able to keep up and this still concerns me. I booked NewGen as they have smaller groups and so that risk seemed less. Still, I am keeping an open mind and am determined to have fun and make progress!
On glaciated terrain you may find that what seemed like a solid enough surface under your skis is nothing of the sort when your weight is transferred through the much smaller surface area of your boot soles 