 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Folks
Having worked as a ski instructor for 7 years in Austria (but alas no more) I would like to share with you a little of the (at least Tirolean) ski-school ethos.
I have always had a great passion for teaching and always wanted to pack in as much as possible into my lessons, so that after the lesson the student has lots to think about and practice rather than just picking up on one aspect and fixing that one thing. Plus I see skiing a ‘holistic’ thing, where correcting just one thing doesn’t always lead a great improvement. I always assess my students (and indeed ask them) as to how much they can absorb in a lesson, and can usually tell when they are on information overload, when it is then time to consolidate what we have learnt.
I have been told by the boss, quite specifically and, I might say, bluntly, ‘Don’t explain much, just let them ski behind you and have fun with them.’ I found this very frustrating. I have always been open to ideas from sources other than ‘The Austrian method’ including a Video by Martin Hecklemann and DVDs by Warren Smith. I lent Warren Smith DVD to one of the top guys in my ski-school who taught us to teach and, to my surprise and disappointment, he was quite dismissive of most of it. He actually said to me that you can’t tell too much to the students because they won’t understand it.
In my opinion that is patronising the students. I think it is the duty of the teacher to find a way to explain things in a way that can be easily understood by the student. I had many students who said to me that they had had a local instructor previously but felt they hadn’t learnt much because they (the instructor) had just skied down, and then watched them ski down, then said little or nothing. Sometimes, they said they had learnt more in an hour with me, than a week with some instructors.
I myself, when I was a student, had a private lesson in France, and apart from ‘Follow me’ the instructor only told me one thing. Granted it was a good thing, but I could have absorbed much, much more.
I am convinced that ski-schools don’t want to get the full potential from you as quickly as possible, they want you coming back time and time again.
So my advice is this. When you take a private lesson, tell your instructor exactly what you want (he/she should ask this). If you want a lesson to be a tootle around the slopes with a few pointers thrown in – say so, but if you want a lesson packed with lots of information, or targeted to a specific problem – say so. Perhaps something like-
“I feel I’m not advancing with my technique and I want to really sort it out so don’t be afraid to tell me loads of stuff, I really want to learn.”
There are three ways to learn a physical activity like skiing
1. Technically. Have the technique explained to you, - understand it, - do it.
2. Visually. See it shown to you and copy it.
3. Independently. Work it out for your self.
If you are No.1, technically minded – tell your instructor and say you want to understand not just what to do, but why you need to do it. When you understand what it is you should be doing, you will be closer to achieving it.
If you are No. 2, a visual learner – again tell your instructor that you don’t need to understand every little thing, - ‘You show me, and I’ll copy you.’
If you feel you fall into cat. No. 3 it is going to be hard for any teacher to help you. Just know that skiing (unlike snowboarding) is non-intuitive, and you will be on an uphill struggle if you cannot allow yourself to trust your teacher.
It’s your money, so say up front exactly what you want, and if you don’t get it, let the boss know (in a friendly and polite way of course).
The point to be made from the other side of the coin is that when you ask a student to do something (like say, stand in the ‘goalkeeper stance’ when skiing) and they don’t do it, it is very hard to keep correcting them without sounding like a grumpy Sergeant-Major, so a lot of instructors smile and say ‘yes that’s great’ when they don’t mean it at all. So you really have to give 100% effort and concentration to follow the directions given, in order to get the best from your lesson. If you really want progress, you could even say something like -
“Don’t be afraid to tell me off if I’m doing something wrong, even if you have to tell me a hundred times, I want to know.”
Finally, if you are in a group and your instructor says (during class time) ‘Let’s all go for a drink’ and you don’t want to, say so! You’ve paid for his time to ski, not drink. So let those who want to go for a drink while you go round again with the instructor.
In my time I’ve met some great and dedicated teachers, but God, I’ve meet some lazy back bottoms too!
I hope these pointers will help you get the most out of your ski instruction.
FIRST TIME SKIIERS visit me at www.skiday.co.uk for more tips.
Andrew Day
‘Skiday’
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skiday, we need more of your kind out there on the slopes! I was lucky enough to get a really good instructor for a day at the end of my first week. He was an old pro and started me on the track of understanding the reasons for movement (I am logically-minded). I was even more lucky to get my second and fourth week on the slopes with snowHeads instructors - that really got me flying!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skiday, fair play but if you get the saturation point wrong you could just confuse matters.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Andrew do you have tips for me? I fear that the group lesson I am booked into will make faster progress than I am capable of achieving. I'm definitely booked into the correct level for my current ability (with NewGeneration, Vallandry), according to their very useful video clips. The trouble is I am a timid skier, frightened of hurting myself, but I want to succeed. 5 years ago I broke/dislocated an ankle (not skiing), and have no wish to suffer that again, or indeed to inflict the problem of being me being injured on my non-skiing family.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skiday, thanks, a very useful post. Depressing, too, in terms of the ski school boss's attitude. Very good to be able to point people to it, if they come to Snowheads and ask about lessons, too. Skiing with our favourite easiski is a good example - if you do it wrong thirty times, she tells you 30 times! Your advice about telling the instructor exactly what you want, and how you like to learn, is spot on. It's difficult to do, sometimes, if the rest of the group have a different approach. I suppose that really, the answer is to have private lessons and go for quality, not quantity.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I am reminded of a teaching maxim we used when I did my PGCE: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." Seems to me every learner needs to receive information 3 ways, through hearing, seeing and doing. However what's said about learning styles is entirely right - different people do have different learning styles and there is supposed to be a gender bias in that women are more word-based and men more image-based. One test question that was used (of many) was how do you remember a set of directions which you are given? If someone gives me some on the phone, I sketch myself a map while listening rather than write the instructions - so much for that being a male trait - hmm!
Seriously though, I have seen a few single-sex ski courses advertised and I am wondering if that is sensible - do people think men and women learn to ski differently or is it more down to the individual's nature/confidence/sportiness?
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NewSkier, I did a womern only course in Whistler, and didn't enjoy it. I don't think I do the group lesson thing well, regardless of the sexes in the classs.
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Got a good instructor this year.
He explained everything technically and visually through excercises.
What i wanted him to do more of was for us to go down seperatly and then watch us. Afterwards it would have been really good if he could have then given us all tips on how to improve.
I'll probably get someone telling me that i need private lessons now! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Christopher, Try private lessons, they are exactly what you just described. 
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| NewSkier wrote: |
| I fear that the group lesson I am booked into will make faster progress than I am capable of achieving. . |
For all you know, every other member of the group will be thinking the same thing of himself/herself. So don't assume you are alone in having anxieties and don't assume in advance how much or how little you can achieve. An instructor worth his/her pay will have various ways of ensuring that individuals in the group make maximum personal progress. And take Skiday's advice to keep your instructor informed of your needs: tell him/her of your earlier injury and of your consequent concerns so that he/she can accommodate this and help your confidence along all the more. Relax your mind so you can enjoy: you are in the class to improve your enjoyment of your chosen sport, not to prepare for an exam. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yoda, How about a couple of big mirrors at the top of the nursery slopes . Would be a cheap way of letting beginners see how they are really standing? 
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| Quote: |
Is there a use for instant digital photography as a feedback tool now that camera screens tend to be a reasonable size and more visible in daylight than they were?
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I have been doing that (off my own back) since small enough digital cameras came out. It's great. Ask your instructor when having a private lesson, if they don't do it, at least your helping to create the demand.
Glad to see a positive reaction to my post, and thanks CCL for answering NewSkier - I agree.
NewSkier - Although Helen didn't have a good experience, when, by chance, I ended up with a single sex group (usually timid ladies) it worked well, but then again, not all men are gung-ho about skiing, and vice-versa. So just because a group is all women that doesn't guarantee they will all be timid (To use the word 'timid' is not a criticism here, just being realistic)
I'm off to Breckenridge on Saturday so might not be able to answer any questions posted. Perhaps you can ask CCL?
Are there more instructors in this forum (current or former)?
Don't forget to prepare for your holiday - I'm off to the gym now (every other day for three weeks, then every day for a week).
Skiday
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You know it makes sense.
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Have a great time in Breckenridge! Is it work or a personal holiday?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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CCL - Pure Holiday - Whoopee!!!!  Then 2 weeks in Skiwelt (Scheffau) where wifey will work/run the Kinderland of Ingrid Salvenmoser and I might do a bit of private if it's offered. Incidentally, She (Brigitte) is probably, dare I say, one of the most experienced teacher of 3-5 yr olds in the world having worked 22 full seasons doing nothing but teach that age group because she loves it so much. If you have any questions relating to that age group, I will pass them to her.
Do you teach in Scotland?
Yoda - Of course it does. Please don't think I see myself as some kind of Uber-Lehrer. I'm only a humble Anwerter - (basic Austrian qualification) - it's just my enthusiasm that knows no bounds. Make sure you practice taking photos first as it can be quite tricky, and you want to look good at it.
Cheers
Andrew (Skiday)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skiday, I'm off to Klosters tomorrow but will be in Scheffau with some other 's the week beginning the 26th. Will you still be there then?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm in Scheffau February 17 to 29
By the way, what does 's refer to?
EDIT: Oh I get it - Snowheads - I see the snow on the head now.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skiday, ah, so it's a long holiday in Breckenridge  Pity we'll miss you then, have a great time.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, works for me
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What a difference a day makes! There is a steady progression in these 3 clips. Well done! You end up doing neat plough parallel turns from which you will be able to develop further the next time you are on the snow.
Next step would be to increase your speed a bit (and maybe the steepness of the slope) so that you begin to manage the pressure aganst you in the second part of the turn by flexing your ankles more. This in turn will help you develop a leg stretch to initiate the turn.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ccl, thanks. I am in ski lessons for a week in Feb - NewGen Level 3, so hope to move on significantly then. Must say speed and steepness scare me still though!
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All the best for your February trip. Notice what you have done though: you have changed "increase your speed a bit (and maybe the steepness of the slope)" into "speed and steepness scare me" (of course they do). Think of it as just a wee bit quicker on an slightly increased incline that is well within your capability: don't turn it in your mind into 90kph on a 35 degree slope.  A lot of skiing is in the mind and most of us are too good at thinking ourselves into a nervousness that inhibits progress.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ccl, good point which I will try to take on board - but I am sure that the first blue I tried was nearly vertical in places
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| I am sure that the first blue I tried was nearly vertical in places |
Know what you mean. By the way, you should change your signature along with the name: your video clearly gives the lie to "struggling to get beyond snowplough turns"
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Megamum, Not sure what the chocolates are for. 
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm not sure if this fits in this thread as I was in a beginners group lesson, but here are my thoughts:
Mrs Spurs and I went to Austria (Kirchdorf) last year, both of us complete beginners. There must have been 20 or so in our group which, in retrospect, seems excessive. There were lots of instructors, and some of the intermediate groups were comparatively small, 6 or 7.
I was doing quite well on the first morning..no falls! but after lunch we were practising stopping. A bit higher up the slope, narrow the plough to pick up speed, plough to slow down etc..and I kept veering off to the right, towards my classmates. Natural instinct when heading into danger, lean away  I mowed down the entire class twice within the space of half an hour! But I hadn't been told how to turn, my instructions had been "try to keep your weight central, and look ahead at the Mercedes dealer over the road"
Mrs Spurs had been finding it difficult staying upright all morning, but got the knack soon after lunch, and was doing the exercise quite well.
We were both kicked out of the beginners class and told to just practice this one lesson over and over for the rest of the day and we would get a new instructor tomorrow. So we did this, side stepping up the slope, sliding down again, for about an hour and a half...while the rest of the group got to go up on the rope tow. By the end of the first day they were all ploughing down through the slalom course, sans poles.
At the end of the day, our instructor (who had been keeping an eye on us and providing words of support and encouragement) took me up on the rope for a go..and I got up and down with no problems.
On our second day we were assigned a new instructor, (she had had to take the previous day off for some reason, so they knew that she was going to be spare for the rest of the week) and she was wonderful. There was my wife and I, and two others..a fifth joining us on our third day.
But we didn't learn anything! Tracey (Gorgeous, hilarious, patient....heavens, she was patient) could only move us along at the pace of the slowest in the group....and two of the others were absolutely awful. Ben just could NOT turn or stop, and Seeta just fell over..all the time..even when standing still.
We didn't leave the nursery slope during that first week. We had to listen to the stories from others that had been in our group on day one about how they'd enjoyed Steineplatte and Fieberbrunn.
Thank God we went for two weeks and got to enjoy the exhillaration of skiing down a proper piste on week two.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't a complaint. We had a fantastic holiday and I think the instructors at Kirchdorf are wonderful, but we would be better skiers now, I'm sure, had we gone somewhere for a week, and spent the money that we saved paying for private tuition.
We're off again this weekend, and if I can't do decent parallels by the following weekend, I'll be......upset 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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youspurs1, The ski school there sounds awful. When i was a begginer, im so glad i took lessons on a dry slope back at home so i wasnt a complete begginer when i arrived.
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Poster: A snowHead
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20 in a group? With one instructor? Never, ever use that ski school again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hi Christopher ,
We didn't want to take lessons beforehand. The learning experience was to be part of the fun...and learning in resort has to be more fun than learning on a dry slope, albeit more expensive...and that was the main reason we went for two weeks, we suspected that the first week would be the 'learn' week.
Hindsight is a hideous thing. I disagree with you about the ski-school, it just didn't work for us the way it might have. I think that our instructor had in the back of his mind that there was going to be a spare instructor on the 'morrow, and decided that either me or wifey needed more help. It was a no-brainer for him when it came to deciding whether or not to split us up.
It was just unfortunate for us that the others that we spent the remainder of our first week with were utterly useless, and our tuition could not progress at a faster pace. But we had a fantastic time.
I don't know if I'd change anything if I could go back...as I prepare for my 2nd skiing holiday (will saturday EVER come?) I know that I should be able to ski better than I can given that I have two weeks, two WHOLE weeks, under my belt (and a day at Tamworth in the summer)...and that frustrates me.
But as I said, this isn't a whinge...We'll get there. We've even bought our own boots this year
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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having skied at Kirchdorf the last 2 years with 3 beginners (I've been skiing since I was 12) all I can say is that there must have been an exceptionally high number of complete beginners for group numbers to be so high! What you have to bear in mind is that Kirchdorf is sold through Thomson as an 'all-inclusive' package and 'ideal for beginners' this means a higher than normal number of beginners in resort. I've never skied with Tracey but any half decent instructor for safety's sake must surely go at the speed of the slowest member of that group. I've skied and drunk with most of the instructors and in my view they are all VERY good instructors. They do tend to redress the groups after the first day to try and balance things out, as believe me, no-one likes being in a large group, least of all the instructors. In defence of the ski school and Eddie who runs it, when you book your holiday with Thomson they don't tell the ski school beforehand how many beginners / inters / advanced there are.
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Tracey (Gorgeous, hilarious, patient....heavens, she was patient)
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spot on about the gorgeous bit though
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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youspurs1 which instructor did you have on your first day out of interest?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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1st day was Mark, and it might not have been as many as 20, I wouldn't want to inadvertantly give them an undeserved reputation just because I have a bad memory..but certainly at least 15.
I would have gone back to Kirchdorf this year without hesitation. I just wanted to try somewhere different. Please, God, don't let me put any newbies off. We had a fantastic time! both Tracey and Mark would sit with us on the Terrace of the Alphof after lessons during our 2nd week, asking how we were getting on and giving us words of encouragement, and after our first day at Stieneplatte, Tracey came running up to us, desperate to find out how we'd got on!.
In our 2nd week we were in the lowest intermediate group, 7 of us as I recall, so no problem there.
As you said freezy, there might have been a larger than average 'newbie intake' on our first week.
I'll say it again, we had the BEST HOLIDAY WE'VE EVER HAD at Kirchdorf, with next to no snow! and that was in the main because of Eddie Bichler's school and it's instructors.
There were some that went as complete beginners, and came away after one week, skiing as well as I did after two weeks.....but they didn't get to spend a week ogling Tracey
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yeah I know Mark, that guy will ski just about anywhere - madman  I would have quite happily gone back to Kirchdorf a 3rd year running as there is so much skiing within 30 mins, Steinplatte.Kitzbuehel.St Johann.Fieberbrunn. The wife decided a change was in order so we're off to Finkenberg this Saturday. I just hope the ski school there is as good.
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Hi folks - skiday here coming to you from Breck. Having a great time and can only say that I think this would be a great place to learn to ski - despite the possible jet lag. Mind you temp today was about -5 deg - FAHRENHEIT !!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| youspurs1 wrote: |
| 1st day was Mark, and it might not have been as many as 20, I wouldn't want to inadvertantly give them an undeserved reputation just because I have a bad memory..but certainly at least 15. |
IMHO, even 15 in a class is still far too many to be condusive to learning, at any level of learning. 10 or less, the fewer the better. Way too much time will be spent waiting around.
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great post. I have had 3 weeks of lessons and to be honest all but one have been crap. My instructor in soldeau was great, he made the lessons fun and made you eant to ski, he took us all around the resort and we got to learn on a variety of slopes. The ESF lessons i have had since then don't seem to be bothered and don't take you away from the nursery slopes.
next time i am going to have some private lesson and will tell the instructors exactly what i want to acheive and will ake sure i get my money's worth
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FAQ
