 Poster: A snowHead
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saikee, It obviously wouldn't be the first Black run that you'd ever do. It's all about building up to something that steep. Feel confident on shallower terrain first, then try the odd steep pitch, rather than just going for the big one straight away. Having said that the run doesn't look that bad, nice safe run out at the bottom, so if you do fall, the worst that would probably happen is you go for a long slide.
I wouldn't and I'm sure most Instructors wouldn't take pupils on a piste like that unless I was sure they could deal with it, both technically and mentally.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OMFG, that run looks like so much fun 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thefatcontroller, that photo does make it seem steeper than it actually is...
Ive been up the chairlift that goes up the side of the Devils Run and while it looks steep, it doesnt look as steep as the photo above...
I actually skied there with my Mum (nervous intermediate), and on the piste map there was a blue piste there so i decided to ski it. Turns out the blue is just a narrow track for the most part, which occasionally crosses the black Devils Run. Was a nightmare for my Mum  You can see on the above photo where the blue crosses the devils run several times...
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Couldn't prove anything myself even after doing both of them because the wife fell on Harakiri and had enough leaving me to try the Devil's run alone, otherwise I could have used her experience as a yardstick, as I was confident that she would be alright in Devil's run. She lost a bit of confidence so I did not push her to do it. She had on a previous day done the blue piste 7a and skied the last steep section of Devil's run when we failed to find the entry point of this black run..
The Devil's run is marketed as the "other" challenging black of Mayrhofen.
I was wrong-footed by a British skier when I asked him in a chairlift about Harakiri and his reply was "it is easy at the top but getting harder and steeper as you go further down the slope". He told me it was Run No. 17 which I found out was actually the Devil's run as show in the above picture. His comment is factual because the steepest section is the bit just below the tree top at the bottom. There is a blue run just crossing the top of this steepest section providing an escape for those wanting a way out.
Personally I think Harakiri has the upper hand. The Devil's run is also one deep in my memory for being a black slope with substance. Condition in Devil's run was poorer as there were more skiers there. I didn't see anybody fall in Devil's run but quite a few did choose to opt out the last section which was icy when I tried it. I was anticipating a fall, nearly did so but just managed the bald patches which has a tiny section with little or almost no snow.
Harakiri was attempted by less number of skiers as its top was sign-posted as the "Steepest Austrian piste run". Thus its condition was a lot better but I witnessed 6 to 7 skiers/boarders fell.
I think the conception of devil's run look scary could be the scale showing it being quite narrow. The actual piste width is very wide, but not as wide as Harakiri, and so a skier has plenty space to turn.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 9-02-08 19:14; edited 1 time in total
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The problem with Harakiri is it's on the side of the Penken that doesn't get that much sun so unless it's snowed recently it does tend to get a little icy just where it drops away, mainly because that's just where the boarders slide over scraping away the snow. Over than that it looks fairly okay. I didn't do it in Jan on the advice of my instrctor who said it was very icy. We did do devils run though which was exhilarating. There is also a mogul field that runs beside Devils Run.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think I need to get to this Mayrhofen place. I've never been, looks good.
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go! but try and ski from Mayrhofen right over to Lanersbach and Eggalm and back, lots of varied on and off piste to test even the most harcore skier
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The Oh God here in Wengen is very much steeper, its somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees. The advantage is it is barely ever pisted 
Its also 300 meters long or so....
Mind if I laugh at the Harakiri?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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freezywater,
Your explanation was the excuse my wife used for her fall.
When we enquired about this black run with a skiing instructor on ascending Ahorn cable car he asked us if we were we good skiers and appeared on the verge to alert the police that we were about to commit a crime. We told her that we have skied skied a few Austrian and other countries black runs before and she was visibly relieved and said "In that case you "may" be OK but be careful with it".
It appears skiing instructors would want to play safe and so would not encourage the client to take risk. Thus they may tend to discourage than encourage the clients to try it.
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Ronald,
Established black runs do not exceed 45 degree or 100%. Above that gradient is normally found in offpiste. There are skiers doing steeper gradients in extreme skiing.
Didn't skied much in Wengen myself but I thought Shilthorn is tougher. If I have to back up my claim that there could be sections steeper than Harkiri then Shilthon would be one of my choices, though my skill may have improved and the Schilthorn black runs there may no longer as be scary as before.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sat 9-02-08 19:38; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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saikee, they barely piste over 35 degrees in fact.... and there is a very good reason for that... barely holds enough snow to sustain a piste, turns into an icerink real quick due to the sliding about by 97% of the people on it.
You should see how people get down Hundschopf and Ziel of the Wengen downhill (44 and 42 degrees respectively)
A good laugh every time
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Schilthorn generally holds /excelent/ natural snow cover, not a flake of artificial there. Its steep as hell, but relatively easy for such a run due to the snow being amazing.
Oh God is steeper then schilthorn, and holds much less snow (exposed vs protected location)
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| It appears skiing instructors would want to play safe and so would not encourage the client to take risk. Thus they may tend to discourage than encourage the clients to try it. |
Guess who gets the blame if the client breaks him/herself into many pieces after being pushed onto Schilthorn/Oh God/Harakiri/Devils run...
The insurance will cover the instructor financially, but the client will blame the instructor.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| saikee wrote: |
It appears skiing instructors would want to play safe and so would not encourage the client to take risk. Thus they may tend to discourage than encourage the clients to try it. |
It is a Ski Instructors first and main priority above all else, to ensure the safety of his/her clients. The risk is on the part of the Instructor rather than the client, as it's his/her head on the block, should things go pear-shaped. There is risk just being in the mountains, it's the Instructor's job to assess, what is a reasonable risk for his/her clients.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ronald,
Yes I like your explanation. It ties up with the rest of the information.
Let's make sure every reader is aware of it. Harakiri is a "groomed" black piste. It has 78% gradient which is 37.95 degree and requires the snow basher on a winch to groom the piste surface. It is certified, by way of several permanent signs at the top of the piste, as the "Austrian steepest ski run".
For steeper gradient skiers can find it offpiste, un-groomed runs or ski routes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fair point, however, I'm perfectly happy skiing reds I can really chuck myself into that a black that I run the risk of doing an injury on!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| roga wrote: |
I'm wondering what the incline of the steepest portion of the Face de Bellevarde is in Val d'Isere and how it compares to this, the steepest pitch for the FIS downhill is around 63% but I don't think they do the steepest bit, or am I mistaken?
Is there a site somewhere that compares inclines?
Just trying to compare really 'coz the photos may flatten out the pitch somewhat but even those piccies of people doing the run above don't make it look that extreme... just don't leave a pole at the top then fall as I've seen some people doing on steep pitches!  |
71% according to Val website.
http://www.valdisere2009.org/fr/championnats2009/projet2009/bellevarde.html
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ronald wrote: |
The Oh God here in Wengen is very much steeper, its somewhere between 40 and 50 degrees. The advantage is it is barely ever pisted
Its also 300 meters long or so....
Mind if I laugh at the Harakiri? |
I don't think there are any pistes in any country as steep as 40º (except perhaps for a few exceptional metres). I would be very surprised if Oh God is much over 30º but it is many years ago I last skied it. It is certainly not as steep as 38º. Does anyone have access to any figures? Very few blacks are over 30º but the Jungfrau area has mostly very gentle skiing so Oh God, which I'd say is the only proper black in the region, really sticks out.
If anyone has the local 1:25,000 map and a ruler it should be possible to count the contours on the steepest section and work it out.
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38 degrees is steep with ice but otherwise isn't that hard. This is about resorts hyping themselves really. Plenty of steeper stuff off piste in Europe, or inbounds in North America.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
Spyderman,
By the way WTF.....Gotlieb....  |
Gotlieb Diesel - Invented the Diesel engine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Doesn't really look that steep. The Garland in Lenggries is probably as steep and covered in moguls, and the steepest controlled run in Bavaria is the Laber in Oberammergau ( un-pisted ), which comes in at about 40-45°.
These things are only dangerous when they are icy, in which case I wouldn't bother doing it cos you can end up getting killed 
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Spyderman, Ahh... 
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You know it makes sense.
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I think I might pay a visit to Mayrhofen/Hintertux in the future after viewing this thread.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Christopher, avoid the German/Austrian holidays if you do go
The whole Zillertal is absolute mayhem in the holidays...
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Poster: A snowHead
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thefatcontroller, he might have done better with poles?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Christopher wrote: |
| I think I might pay a visit to Mayrhofen/Hintertux in the future after viewing this thread. |
...whereas I might not!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I went to Zillertal Valley in mid Jan and did not find Mayrhofen a busy area or the entire Zillertal if that matters. I accept in holiday period the situation can be different.
I was able to avoid the crowd/queues by driving to every one of the 7 unlinked areas. However staying in Mayrhofen I did in one day drop the car and walked to the Penkenbahn, which is known to be crowded with long queues. It did have skiers in the long spiral staircase but we did not have to stop, as in queuing, until we all walked inside the gondola area. Thus it was hardy busy. When I finished skiing and had a chance to check I did not find any of the car parks stretched or well used. That was in mid Jan 2008.
To be fair and having seen Arlberg, Ski Welt, Kitzbuhel, Saalbach/Hinterglemm, Bad Gastein, Zell am See/Kaprun, Solden/Obergurgl and Silvretta I think Zillertal Valley is well worthy a visit. Any Valley with over 630km piste is not to be sneered at.
Mayrhofen is one of the three large areas, each with over 150km piste, in Zillertal and it does have two interesting groomed black runs. This skiing area is also very long and quite a stretch to ski from one end to another within the same day. Couple of black runs I tries in Hochzillertal, which is at the front of the valley in Kaltenbach, were so mild that I was the opinion that they were lucky for inclusion into the black category, perhaps for the purpose of boasting the skiing variety of Hochzillertal.
One of the features I picked up from Zillertal Valley is each of the 10 to 12 gondola stations I parked/checked out there is always a huge parking facilities for the day trippers. There may be a large number of skiers coming from big cities Munich, Innsbruck and Slazburg. They will take time to get to Mayrhofen. Skiers staying locally, say in Mayrhofen, can avoid the the big crowd if they ascend the resort early, as the day trippers will not be there in significant number until after 9:30pm or even 10am. The whole valley is big enough to absorb the huge influx of skiers. The trick would be to avoid the bottlenecks and disappear into the mountain as early as possible if you have to go there during the Austrian/German holidays.
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Hmm, skiing like that on a red the bloke would end up on his *rse let alone a black. IMHO one of the major hazards on steeper pitches on piste are people who simply shouldn't be attempting them in the first place and end up falling and sliding and sometimes hitting others.
I agree with those who mention resorts hyping runs up, this sounds like a classic case, in these circumstances you get the type of person (invariably intermediate blokes) skiing the runs who are simply not up to the task - thinking cynically, the resorts then have accident statistics to add to their overinflated claims for their run.
Looked at a few other videos on YouTube of the run and it still doesn't look as fearsome as the resort are trying to make out...
Thanks Philippe, well there's a 2% difference then with the Harakiri, not much and I wonder how much of the run is actually 73%, I'd guess not all that much judging by the photos but maybe I'll try it sometime just to see what it's really like 
I agree with people's comments about the quality of the snow, in icy conditions such a run would be far more of a test and if the Harakiri is usually icy and hardpacked that might be a reason to see it as a very difficult black, the pitch though doesn't seem much of a big deal.
BTW, I'm sure a lot of US resorts have inbound off-piste that's steeper than this - I'm sure Mammoth does.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If it was very icy it could be scary. Otherwise doesn't look that difficult for anyone comfortable holding an edge and making short turns in the fall line. Not one for out of control intermediate bombers though!
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Before anyone tries steep slopes like this it's probably a good idea if they familiarise themselves with the late Giles Green's self arrest technique, discussed on this thread
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I went to Mayrhofen over xmas and new year in 2005/6 (last free holiday with parents). It was very very quiet over Xmas, but I guess that may be due to the fact it is a low resort and therefore not that snowsure (for the majority, obv excl the glacier in that), was a bit busier at new year, but I cant remember waiting for a lift for more than a minute or two.
Also I found the instruction very good there - I took some group lessons as I was with my family who will not ski anything more difficult than a blue and wouldn't let me ski alone (parents!), There were 3 of us in the lesson for just over £100 a week, much better than the ski school in France that probably shouldn't be named. Overall, a great resort!
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Saikee I am an instructor and here is my advice on it. Ski it early in the morning prefrebly after a good snowfall any decent parralel skier could manage this if they take there time IN GOOD CONDITIONS! In bad icy conditions it is a huge challange for most and if you are not an expert and it is icy avoid it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| roga wrote: |
[
BTW, I'm sure a lot of US resorts have inbound off-piste that's steeper than this - I'm sure Mammoth does. |
Yes of course, off piste can be as steep as you want (60º if you are up to it - but that is extreme skiing territory only) and if you have a good guide he will probably find it in most places. What we were talking about was pistes.
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roga,
I think many SH may be obsessed with Harakiri's claim of being the steepest ski run and so the counter claims of there are steeper runs elsewhere.
The fact of the matter is that Harakiri is a groomed piste. The snow basher needs to be winched in order to groom it. Therefore it would at the about the limit of a groomed piste. It a piste is steeper and isn't groomed then there are loads of them in Europe and USA.
Thus skiers should look at Harakiri and take its gradient as the threshold beyond which no piste could be groomed safely unaided, as it may be no longer safe for the machine to travel on it. There must be a gradient at which the snow basher becomes unstable and could not stop itself from sliding down the slope no matter what the driver does. After all the snow is just a loose layer between a heavy snow basher and the rock/soil below. To appreciate how steep that slope is one can take a look at Harakiri.
It is possible that Harakiri is being sign-posted as the "Austrian steepest ski run" because for an ungroomed piste in Austria is call them skie route, Skirouten or Itineraires a ski.
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