Ski instruction in France

A snowHead

I think that a lot of the prejudice against the ESF and various other national schools is not so much based on their supposed poor tuition, but due to their fierce "protectionism". When I went to Austria to St Anton last year it was very dissappointing to find that instead of 4 days ski-guiding, we were only going to have 2, due to the intervention of the local ski school. It all seems to be somewhat xenophobic in nature, which tends to encourage a very partisan approach amongst us Brits, we almost feel as if we have to support an independant British ski school over the national bullies, and that we are betraying our countrymen if we don't.

A snowHead

Personal observations on ski instructors,ESF and other:
Only one experience of ESF;at Valmorel last year.Very much a family resort,lots of kids,large ESF contingent.Wife was first up.So impressed she had three private lessons in 4 days.18yr old daughter who cant walk in a straight line,let alone ski,had 2 lessons(1 to 1)I finally joined in,and had 1 private.Result? Wife enjoyed it,but I think she fancied the tutor more than the tuition rolling eyes

Didn't seem to improved her skiing noticeably!It helped my daughter,she looked a lot better,more confident.Think her tuition convinced her she was not going to die if she clipped on a pair of skis??Me;well I had a damn good tour of the ski area,but the tuition was,frankly,outdated.In fairness I did pick up a couple of useful little tips,but got a little fed up with the 'sink down,spring up,turn-sink down,spring up,turn' approach Confused

Having said that,my chap was very much a mountain man.Showed me places I would have missed otherwise,had good english,and was exceptionally friendly.All in all a very pleasant time Laughing

Obviously ESF,like any teacher,will vary.If in doubt ask.Just because you're in France etc,does that mean you should settle for shoddy treatment.I don't think so!!I think the main thing you need is the b@lls to face these people up.
This brings me to the 'others'.Goes back a bit,but the principle is there.A certain snowdome in the UK,which also happens to be the oldest wink

Children's lesson for beginners(6/7/8yr olds)More than once my youngest was grouped under a certain 'instructor'.Good skier,but patently a useless instructor.Had little patience, and displayed this fact regularly Evil or Very Mad

Having witnessed this chap remonstrate with the little ones who had fallen,and then walk away,leaving them to flail about;I decided to have a quiet word.This did not go down well."I am the instructor,and I know best" Twisted Evil

No,I am the one paying for you,and I know what I want.Word with management,profuse apologies,new instructor,previous guy nowhere to be seen.Youngest flies through lessons.Everybody happy Laughing

Rule No1;if you ain't happy;complain!We Brit's are useless at it.The French,IMHO,are past masters.You can be sure that if they're not happy,they will still be complaining even after the 'complaint' has been resolved wink

Yes,I would use the ESF again;but I would do a bit of 'on the spot' research first.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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fair enough, it a comparison most of us don't find intuitive though; so, there's been very many reports about smaller operations, and very, very, very many about ESF. I think you aware of how poor this comparison really is, it's fairly plain after all. You're grouping into just ESF and not-ESF, the fact the non-ESF group is made of "very many" parts for which largely no comments are received is ignored as its the fact that there's typically not really more than one report for any single operator.

All you can reasonably say is that the non-ESF sector as a whole is favorably received, this isn't surprising, for example, many of the non-ESF operations are in niche markets so the direct comparison becomes hard.

None of which I especially care about to be honest, the fact is there's a huge number, in fact the majority, of UK punters who don't take lessons and parade out a load of old nonsense about ESF as part of their justification for not taking any lessons at all. Over 90% of punters on getting off the plane at Geneva, Lyon, Munich or where ever won't be taking any lessons and won't have done so for years regardless of whether it's France and ESF or whether other local operators are available. The only reason I even care a little is I'm getting fed up of them tearing round out of control at peak times under the impression that loads of new kit and speed are a substitue for ability Very Happy

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ise, with you all the way on that one snowHead

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ise, can't say fairer than that!

By the way, take a look at the poll. I wrote to the ESF chairman yesterday. I reckon he must have joined snowHeads!

After all it is free

People have had bad experiences, no doubt. But the trouble is if you take rob's and others' points to their logical conclusion, given that virtually all the many millions of French skiers exclusively use the ESF, wouldn't it mean that the majority must all be stuck on the plateau and disillusioned with skiing? Unless the French are gifted with patience, learning abilities and natural skills beyond the reach of mere Brits!

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My two bobs worth. I haven't had lessons in France since learning to snowboard ten years ago. have however used the ESF guiding service at Avoriaz/Morzine for an off piste adventure with helicopter pick up. Instructor was pretty good and good and pretty and she only fell a couple of times.

My wife and skiing friends have always used Magic in Motion in La Tania. Instruction is generally pretty good but to be honest I always look for a native english speaker whether its UK, Australian etc. as it is easier to describe actions more accurately when using "common language colloquilisms etc". I had some lessons with an English instructor in Avoriaz which was very useful for that reason.

On ESF like all ski schools as has been mentioned before it all depends on the individual instructor. I think instruction has probably improved over the last ten years I certainly feel that I see less long snakes around the mountain and class sizes seem smaller but then that could be because I spend more time higher up the mountain where presumably the better classes would be.

Best instruction I've seen was at Whistler where my wife spent two days zooming baout hte mountain being guided with a tip every now and then. They were also filmed as a matter of course and had a little assessment at the end of each day. From my point of view it gave her the confidence to ski at the speed that I ride whihc makes for a much more enjoyable (and tiring) day.

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ashton parker, thta's what I'm hoping to get out of my trip to Whistler-the ability to keep up with the rest of the family, it's lonely skiing on my own.

You know it makes sense.

From the professional point of view (and also the francophone one) I have several points to make here.

Firstly, the French exams are very difficult and include a great deal of "pedagogie", more in fact than BASI. Therefore any tendency to say "follow me" and not actually teach is probably ski school culture rather than a lack of training.

The ESF as an entity (and you must remember that they're different in every resort) depend on quantity for their profit margin rather than quality. It's very difficult to make a profit in their (big) business running small classes. they have to pay for their fancy offices, their good wages, their multi-lingual secretaries and so on..

Many ESF instructors do a very good job, but if you are forced to have classes of 12 twice a day (especially wet english schoolchildren and ignorant "benidorm" types, how enthusiastic would you be? I have several friends who have either left the ESF or given up ski teaching altogether BECAUSE they had no opportunity to really teach.

The thing that is wrong with the ESF is the pecking order system. those who have been there longest get themost work, and often the only work in low season. Now quite likely those are the old, outdated "bend ze knees" types, so the good yound ones don't get a chance for several years in the ski school. Incidentally I hear that in Alpe d'Huez they are obliged to retire at 50, but I don't know if this is true.

Many ESF instructors speak excellent English and work very hard to get it right. I have many firends who are always asking me for new english phrases and slang and so on. It's now part of the job (ski teaching) to be at the very least bi-lingual, if not multi-lingual. Any instructor who isn't should be sacked in my opinion.

Regarding the French way of looking at the ESF, it is different, but I disagree with PG about this. Many French, brought up on the idea that the VENDOR is always right have trraditionally accepted less than excellent service. However I'm beginning to see a big change coming. I worked 9 years for the ESI in LDA, and many of my French clients went to the ESI because they were fed up with the ESF and felt they were not personally important. They found the ESI much more to their liking. Now that I've been independent for 5 years I'm starting to see French people coming to me because I do max 4 in a group. This applies especially to kids classes, but sadly the French are not yet in the habit of booking early enough to get a place during the holidays!

What everyone should do is to look at every ski school in each resort and check them out BEFORE booking their lessons.

PS: I dislike the ESF as an organisation (it's very offensive to be told you're not qualified when you've been a BASI 1 for years), so don't take the above as too much of a defence!! Confused

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

< BUMP >

Please vote, if you haven't already. SnowHeads has had a long response from Gilles Chabert, Chairman of the French Ski Instructors' Union and the ESF, which will take a while to translate... and I'll be adding it to the forum later on this evening. Interesting stuff!

A snowHead

SnowHeads wrote to Gilles Chabert, Chairman of the National Union of French Ski Instructors and the ASF. He was asked for his views on the new legislation, as well as the generally negative tone of the opinions voiced in this thread, and as demonstrated by the poll results to date.

We also asked him if he would like to comment on the matter of the recent legal action against Simon Butler and the all inclusive "instructional" holiday system....

You can read the full text of his response here:

Original French version (pdf)

Translation (pdf)

So... does this just raise more questions than it answers? An exercise in PR? Does it reflect views genuinely held? Are the points made valid?

At least he has offered a meeting to discuss concerns, face to face.

A snowHead

PG, interesting, at least he has had the decency to reply. However, how would we feel if the ski-boot was on the other foot, and it was them complaining about us, and the French ski instructors being discriminated against?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

PG I think that he has put the case for the legislation as it stands, it's also interesting that he write's in his position as head of the ski-instuctors union, the implecation being that all instructors who are members, I'd guess here it's mandatory, support the current legislation.

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PG, very interesting, I think you missed a chance though to ask him about the Stagiare situation.

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I'm stunned by the first sentence.

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The reply is genuine PR position related I cant say what I want type speak, Would love to here what he says off the record.

After all it is free

PG, the article posted on snownews refers to the use of trainees at some ESI schools which is a scam to get non-qualified people teaching, I'd just have been interested in explicitly asking him about it.

actually, while I'm thinking about it, I'd have also asked him when organisations like ENSA, ESF, BASI, ISIA etc are going to pull their finger out multilaterally or unilaterally and consider a more formal qualification system for non-instructors or their customers.

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The letter does draw particular attention to the fact that trainees have to be able to take all standards of pupil when they finally qualify. Reading between the lines, some schools have been using trainees as cheap labour, possibly with little intention of helping them towards the final diploma. Not that they could provide the necessary across the board training in the first place, if there is insufficient staff in place to properly monitor the progress of the trainee, or the school itself doesn't provide a competition class, for example.

Seems like an obvious loophole in the legislation is being partly closed here. Thinking about it, even the bona fide small school must be hard pressed to provide anything like a satisfactory range of training opportunities for trainees, or to follow their progress in a meaningful manner.

The original criticisms included the suggestion that this is the ESF using its muscle to reinforce a "monopoly". But turning the whole question on its head, shouldn't we also be asking the ESI, or individual independents, just how they are able to ensure trainees receive adequate training and supervision? Shouldn't they be asked to answer the accusation that they are manipulating trainee availability to subsidise what might otherwise be a loss-making operation?

Gilles Chabert has offered a meeting. He's clearly concerned about the image of the ESF. We should take him up on that offer.

(laundryman, no doubt the government was paying a little attention to the other matters you mentioned as well wink

)

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PG, exactly my point, that loophole was abused. As you say, you can read between the lines.

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PG, we could debate your post, point by point, but (if you'll excuse the pun) it would be pointless. We could change the words "ski instructor" for tennis coach, gardener, computer programmer or whatever and, with due changes in detail, have exactly the same debate.

It all comes down to belief systems. Either you believe people are capable of making their own decisions and others should live with them, or that regulatory structures need to be built and maintained to balance competing interests (or what are held to be people's interests):

Locke vs. Rousseau
laissaiz-faire vs. dirigisme (funny that we should use French terms for both)

I think we both know where we stand.

laundryman, I stand nowhere, as it happens. I do tend to sit - squarely on the fence - until I have enough information to have an 'opinion'. Often mistaken for an viewpoint in itself, which I do feel is rather disingenuous on the part of those with a scientific background who I feel perhaps should know better! It's not the debate that counts for me, or even vague points of philosophical preference which often have little relevance with respect to the situation "on the ground". I would like to see you arguing for deregulation Locke v. Rousseau style in the medical profession and a whole multiplicity of other professions where a minimum level of standards is demanded.

Still, I would rather that debate began in Après, under a separate title, so that we can keep to the nitty gritty here. In the meantime I am going to contact Gilles Chabert's counterpart ref the ESI's position on all this.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

One of the best guide/instructors I've ever had was an ESF instructor (Alain Marchand, a native of Val D'Isere) and one of the very worst was also an ESF instructor (forgotten his name) also from Val D'Isere. I've had good instruction in Austria and I've also had bad instructors in Austria. Some of the best I've had have been independents working for the German DAV (Deutsche Alpen Verein). I don't think it has anything to do with ESF as such, unless you are saying that their qualification criteria are allowing too many 'bad' instructors to work for them, but then you have to ask whether the independents are applying stricter criteria when they select instructors. I don't think that the chances of getting a good or a bad instructor are any different when comparing ESF to any other ski school. At least that's my experience.

A snowHead

Lots of good views on what the ESF does badly and what it could do better. Is there any mechanism for this thread to be transmitted to them? If they are in a learning mood this is top class customer feedback.

How about a english-language hotline or email at ESF HQ where the bad stuff can be reported from the resort. Rather than after the holiday. Nip bad practice in the bud.

I'm thinking back to an incident when my wife was learning at Val Thorens. They put her on a chairlift for her first unaccompanied. Didn't tell her how to raise the bar, when to get ready, when to hop off. She fluffed it and got a knock on the back of the head by the chair.

Try going to the head of the school and explain that in Franglais....

A snowHead

Mike Lawrie, the ESF is suggesting the opposite - that the quality of instruction is not as high in independent schools because of the alleged "loophole" in the law, previously allowing small schools (mostly independents) to function on the back of an excessive number of (lesser paid) trainees. The implication is that these trainees may be employed to underpin an operation that might not otherwise be profitable. In theory they are there as part of a training course during which they gain practical experience of teaching skiers from beginners to experts, whilst under the supervision of fully qualified instructors. In practice, it has been suggested, some schools only pay lip service to this requirement and deliberately use trainees to boost profits.

The argument from the small independents is that the ESF is just seeking to stregthen its "monopoly" on the ski tuition business in France. The chairman of the ESF has denied this, stressing that they do not wish to see a dilution of standards, which would neither be in the interests of qualified instructors nor in those of the general public, given the security issues in a high mountain environment.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

SussexSnow, this thread has been reported to them - and they have responded, promptly, in the person of Gilles Chabert, chairman of the National Union of French Ski Instructors and the ESF. See the pdf of his letter here.

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Please put me right if I'm missing something here, but surely, if the concern is well founded about a lack of professional instructors and an over use of trainees amongst the independants, then it ought to be obvious from feedback/complaints/injuries from poorly instructed skiers. Either the complaints and resultant loss of business would hound the rogues out, or they'd be subject to malpractice suits which would serve to wind their businesses up anyway.

There has been no empirical evidence yet to suggest that the above is the case.

However I have tried to view this (I really have no axe to grind - one of the most enjoyable and instructive 2 hour lessons was with a very good ESF instructor), I keep on coming back to the view that this is a protectionist move motivated out of a desire to bully out the competition, dressed up as a concern over safety etc.

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Mark Hunter, there's no end of cowboy electricians/plumbers/builders etc etc, plus others in unregulated professions, who will completely agree with you! Laissez-faire encourages the small business economy and the rip-off merchants.. who often get away with it, regardless of complaints. The system in France is tougher on this aspect - there are many professions that are regulated here, but not in the UK. The French public, in the main, are only too happy that this is the case, as long as the line is drawn in the right place. Of course, everyone's idea of where that should be differs!

If legislation allows you to sidestep the rules (legally), and you are in business, it is a foolish businessman who will not do so, at least to an extent. So either standards are dragged down towards the lowest common denominator, or legislation is introduced to prevent this from happening.

Just one piece of anecdotal evidence. Last year I asked at the ESF in a small resort for a competition-level instructor for a 2 hour private lesson, but it was peak season and no one was available. The ESI school immediately came up with someone, a Scottish girl, who I was promised was ideal. She was slower than Hannah, her technique was obviously lacking even to my eyes, clearly not at ease dong GS turns at speed on the mogully blacks. I complained, took Hannah out of the lesson, got my money back, but did nothing else, thought no more about it. Obviously a trainee. Nothing like that has ever happened in my experence of using the ESF. If no competition standard instructors are available, they tell you to go away! I know which I prefer.

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Sorry, did catch that. However, I'm thinking of how to dealwith specifc failings in their service delivery. I just think it is a long way from the sentiment of Msr President to the instructor on the snow making the mistake.

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SussexSnow, there's definitely an argument for "lesser qualified" instructors to take beginners. Should we take Monsieur le Président up on his offer of a meet, that will be one of the questions.

After all it is free

PG, I'm only too aware of the current difficulties concerning tradesmen in the UKfrom personal experience. Too few trainee schemes is one of the problems, allowing substandard people to get away with things owing to shortages of those very people.

However, although one might wish to draw comparisons with "our" problems and project that the same may happen with independent ski schools, that is a huge leap, and I suggest again that there has been no definitive evidence that the problem is as widespread as the proposed changes suggest.

I accept your point about the poor standard of the instructor you received where you undoubtedly required someone of a particularly high calibre. In mitigation, however, there has been no shortage of references to poor ESF instruction here, and at far lower required levels.

I recall having a 2 hour lesson with an ESF instructor a few years back and whilst my skiing was certainly improving, he took me off-piste, down through a small couloir and then onto a black run with a mogul field at the foot. Had I been of a lesser character (something he could only guess at after an hour) I may well have been put off skiing for good - it was beyond my ability, but no confirmation from me was sought before tackling the aforementioned.

There was no doubt about his ability (he was a young instructor on a year out before pursueing a post uni career), but I don't think he had correctly assessed my ability at that time. Now that kind of situation could have had serious consequences, would you not agree?

Mark, from what you've said he could well have been a trainee. One of the things that always impresssed me with good instructors/guides is how quickly they can assess your skiing and make appropriate decisions. I was surprised when I read in one of the earlier posts, that of the ESI brigade in Chatel, 50% of the instructors were trainees. Now to my mind that does appear to be far too high a ratio but without knowing where they were in their apprentiship it's not valid to comment.

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To be completely fair, the guy was extremely pleasant, spoke reasonable English, we got on very well and the technique he was trying to instil in my skiing was spot on - no complaints there. And none, I should add, about what followed - I loved it and probably needed to push myself. If that was his assessment, then he did well in such a short space of time to recognise what I needed. Had he been wrong, though, it could have concluded rather differently.

The 50% figure you suggest does sound high, but if 50% of those were about to gain their "diploma", then that looks rather different. Difficult to say, as you point out.

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Ski instruction in France

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