 Poster: A snowHead
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| And hell, whose country is it anyway?! |
I have some sympathy with that position. The trouble is, France has ceded its right to regulate its own affairs, in certain areas, by signing various European treaties.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And hell, whose country is it anyway?! |
I have some sympathy with that position. The trouble is, France has ceded its right to regulate its own affairs, in certain areas, by signing various European treaties. |
True the record of the French is not good compared to the UK. Wouldn't have something to do with the fact that the UK insists on opt-outs from any laws it doesn't like, by any chance? 
Any suggestion by the British, of all people, that the commitment of the French, who have backed Europe all the way, should somehow be lacking  ... well it would be given short shrift by some, and have the remainder rolling on the ground in fits of laughter! The French may have a different idea of humour to the Brits in some respects, but their sense of irony is not lacking.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PG, you don't help your argument by your comment about language teaching, as an ability to speak the language correctly is a fundamental requirement. A closer analogy might be to say that an in-depth knowledge of the poetry and literature of a language is not necessary to teach a first year language student but probably is necessary to teach that language at an advanced or degree level.
As an example of my point - it is not necessary nor a requirement to be a county standard squash player if you are teaching squash to beginners. However it is a requirement to be a county standard player to teach squash at an advanced level. Whether or not it is necessary is a separate discusion.
My comments were not gratuitous. There is a major problem here of perception not of fact. The perception problem does not appear to have been tackled but rather made worse - no doubt not deliberately but as a bi-product. In a service industry perception is probably more important than fact - sorry but there it is - a great deal of advertising is working on perception not fact.
The current poor perception by many Brits must be harming the ESF income - whether or not substantially I have no idea but I would doubt if it is a lot. However this poor perception is also harming the rest of the French ski industry - again whether this is substantial I have no idea. If I worked or had a business in the French ski industry, I would be concerned that this apparent bias in favour of the ESF could be harming my job or business.
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john wells, I completely disagree. The ability to teach a first year language student can only be enhanced by a comprehensive command of the mechanics of the language, combined with an in-depth knowledge of the culture and literature of the country concerned. The desire and ability to teach in the first place taken as a given of course. Do you base your opinion on direct experience as a linguist, by the way?
The French are working against a certain degree of prejudice here, as you suggest yourself. The ESF is aware of the problem. David@Trax has detailed what one particular school is doing about it, with considerable success. Others with first-hand knowledge here have suggested how and why a certain number of preconceptions are not based on fact. These people include long-term French and Swiss residents with varied, in-depth experience of the systems involved. I find their views, and there is a considerable degree of consensus, very persuasive.
On your last point, the majority of bona fide British-run operations co-exist peacefully with the ESF these days. Although this legislation may be clumsy, in that it could affect a number of legitimate operations as well as the cowboys targeted, I would guess that the means to circumvent it will be found, legitimately, or otherwise.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| john wells wrote: |
| If I worked or had a business in the French ski industry, I would be concerned that this apparent bias in favour of the ESF could be harming my job or business. |
I know personally a hire shop owner who has gone on local radio to express this concern.
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| PG wrote: |
| Although this legislation may be clumsy, in that it could affect a number of legitimate operations as well as the cowboys targeted |
It may also be deliberate, whatever the "spin".
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PG, Let's try a different analogy. If there's something wrong with me, I go to a trained GP, and if I need more expert treatment, I go to a specialist with additional training. If I need a lawyer and it's an easy issue, I can use a local lawyer, if it's complicated I can pay extra for a more experienced top city law firm.
So what is so special about skiing in France that requires their ski instructors to be the equivalent of a brain surgeon or a QC, even when instructing beginners? If you look through the web sites of outfits offering ski instruction qualifications, one consistent theme emerges - the Alpine nations expect more qualifications for ski instruction than is the case anywhere else in the world, and within the Alpine nations, France requires more than the others.
Has this resulted in a reputation that you get the best instruction in the world in France? Based on the correspondence in these pages, I don't think so.....
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Government legislation frequently penalises the small operator. The same is true of the UK. When you run an SME that is only too apparent. However it does not signify deliberate targeting of small business, rather it is a side-effect of increasing red tape, which has a disproportionate impact in terms of cost on the small operator. Alleged "quality control" measures are often responsible for this. There are similarities with the case being discussed here. Before dismissing the French legislation as another example of protectionism and bias, could we first have some evidence to back this up!
(laundryman, could you expand on the ski hire shop's difficulties with the ESF? There's not a great deal to add, without further information...)
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Julian T, The French might argue that their ski instructors are the equivalent of the GP or the solicitor, whereas in some countries they equate to the witch doctor or the barrack-room lawyer 
The French do not require extra qualifications. European ISIA member nations have agreed a common format, and that includes the UK. The French believed that the sport was best professionalised, a 'graduate' profession if you like. The European ISIA members eventually accepted the E-test as the means to that end, and there's little point arguing over that now. It was always going to be an unwinnable argument, so BASI went for the best deal they could get.
Some think that certain ski teaching qualifications place excessive emphasis on ski performance. I prefer to see it as not enough emphasis on the ability to teach. That probably applies as much to BASI as to the French equivalent.
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| PG wrote: |
| Government legislation frequently penalises the small operator. The same is true of the UK. When you run an SME that is only too apparent. However it does not signify deliberate targeting of small business, rather it is a side-effect of increasing red tape, which has a disproportionate impact in terms of cost on the small operator. Alleged "quality control" measures are often responsible for this. There are similarities with the case being discussed here. |
100% agree.
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| Before dismissing the French legislation as another example of protectionism and bias, could we first have some evidence to back this up! |
Don't know if this was aimed at me, but:
Funnily enough, I don't have access to the French corridors of power! I only said that the legislation 'may' have deliberately targeted all-comers. I believe that politicians in all countries sometimes mask their true motives. It is also the case that politicians can be hoodwinked by big business with money to spend on lobbyists: again, in all countries. Governments promoting 'national champions' is not unknown, and I believe that France has a long tradition of that. I stand by my statement. I do not deny your speculation that the law of unintended consequences could be at play.
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| (laundryman, could you expand on the ski hire shop's difficulties with the ESF? There's not a great deal to add, without further information...) |
The shop in question has a lot of business from customers of certain British businesses who have been targeted by the ESF. I gather it is not alone in that particular community, though I don't have first hand evidence of that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I believe PG has made a number of very valid points, the French and we will have to follow this line eventually, have always insisted on qualifications as a basis for any trade or profession. This is becoming much more a European standard, you have only to look through the sits vac in any French newspaper to see the insistence on qualifications. I absolutely agree that standards are essential, my son when he worked as a ski and snowboard instructor in the US was shocked, when to meet peak demand, the hire shop staff or part time students were pressed into service as instructors, nominally as trainees. So any system that allows 'trainees' to work is open to exploitation.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG, sorry, I did not express myself very well.
When I said that there could be a concern for other businesses what I meant was that British skiers could be encouraged to avoid France altogether which means no income for anyone from these Brits.
Switzerland is now more affordable than it used to be and some may have gone there. Plenty have gone to the States and this may be in part to avoid France.
I have no idea if my hypothesis is correct but if I was in business in France I would be concerned.
I like French people, all people come to that, but I have no time for the French government in this and many other areas. In my opinion,definitely doomsville if this country is silly enough to go the same route.(that will get some comment)
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The issue is quite simple; French protectionism rears is ugly head (yet) again. Its the national sport there. The practice is anti-competitive, against EU law and would be struck down by any competent court. That's by the by, however. The French will simply carry on doing what they do. The best respose is to leave the ESF to the French (who I always found to be crap anyway) and go with a reputable independent school.
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You know it makes sense.
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you do realise ESI are a French school as well ? did you read the article ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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4thefunofit, the French are no more protectionist than anybody else. I speak from some experience having owned property in France for over 20 years and running a business in France. I have been made to feel welcome wherever I have been and have never come across us and them attitudes. I'm not saying they don't exist, but in my experience it's no worse and possibly better than protectionist attitudes in this country.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| john wells wrote: |
I have no idea if my hypothesis is correct but if I was in business in France I would be concerned.
I like French people, all people come to that, but I have no time for the French government in this and many other areas. In my opinion,definitely doomsville if this country is silly enough to go the same route.(that will get some comment) |
Yes, that would be truly disastrous. Just imagine - trains that run on time. A health system that was voted no 1 in the world by the WHO in 2001, with no waiting lists. A country which still has a manufacturing base. Higher productivity. Roads without traffic jams. Motorways without roadworks. A fantastic climate, beautiful mountains, Provence just a couple of hours down the road. French cuisine, Vacqueras on tap at 60p a litre... French women. I must be mad, what am I doing living in "doomsville", when I could be back home commuting to London through the smog and traffic jams every day?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PG are you being ironic, surely not?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PG,
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The French might argue that their ski instructors are the equivalent of the GP or the solicitor, whereas in some countries they equate to the witch doctor or the barrack-room lawyer
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Yes, and I recall a Frenchman on the radio, when asked to explain why the French have the lowest per capita soap consumption in Western Europe, insisting that it was because they have better quality soap than anyone else! It's amazing how you can defend the indefensible when there is a profitable monopoly involved
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Julian T, oh dear, not that old stereotype yet again. I didn't realise they were repeating Monty P on the radio these days...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, in an earlier post you raised the case of foreign doctors working within the uk, saying that foreign doctors had to do further exams to bring them up to the standard of uk doctors. Whilst this is true for doctors with quailifications outside the EU, it is not true for doctors from inside the EU, where no such protection exists, even though the quality of the training in some member states is extremely variable.
Not sure that this has much relevence to this discussion though.
I agree that there does seem to be a lot of hearsay and rumour repeated as "fact" in this thread, probably representing the British xenophobic attitude towards the French.
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Kramer, really? I mentioned that because I met a Romanian GP in BSM last Feb, who had moved to the UK. I'm sure she said that the undergraduate medical education in her country lasted a year? two years? less than the UK, and that she was currently completing extra studies to gain equivalence, plus some compulsory language courses. I may well have misheard.
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PG, BASI 2 requires over 200 hours of previous teaching experience, and over 30 days of additional courses. Sounds pretty good to me (and anyone else, unless they havea local monopoly to defend)
As far as I can make out from reading the relevant websites, BASI 2 s accepted as sufficient by every other country in the world, and only France requires BASI 1 (with the speed test). Is there any evidence that this makes France a better place to be taught to ski? Do pupils in France progress any faster because they are taught by those who have passed the Eurotest, versus pupils in other countries?
My own personal experience of being taught by BASI qualifed instructors is better than with the ESF - I'm not recycling hearsay.
Why should a vote seeking politician in France looking to ingratiate himself with a local interest group tell me where I should give my business? I know enough to make my own judgement, and would rather take the risk myself than be told where to spend my money by someone who is more interested in getting votes, or protecting local interests, than providing the best deal to customers. Anyway, I'm voting with my feet, and taking a large group to Austria this year!
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PG, Definitely true of the original EU member states, not sure if it applies to the newer ones (of which Romania is one, I think), but pretty sure that it does.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer - Romania is not yet an EU member state, it was not of the the 10 that joined in May 2004. It has made an application to join the EU and may be admitted in 2007, subject to meeting the entry criteria, along with other candidate member, Bulgaria and possibly Croatia.
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Thank you hibernia. That will explain why PG's friend had to take extra exams then.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Julian T, From a previous thread... yes, we've done this before...
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The Eurotest was agreed as part of the international standards on May 11th 2000 and adopted on April 24th 2001. 31 ISIA member countries agreed on the same standards, including GB and France.
"In their syllabus, Basi 2 and Basi 3 instructors do not have to pass an exam dealing with safety in high-mountain off-piste, nor do they have to speak another language, both of which are quite important, especially in dealing with the potentially adverse conditions which may well continue to exist in parts of France." [ Dave Renouf, former BASI chairman, FT Article, http://specials.ft.com/timeoff/ftski/FT3D4JX5CHC.html ]
Hence the trainee system and status agreed by all 31 member countries of ISIA, for those in the employ of a registered ski school in the country concerned. |
BASI's own site explains pretty clearly the requirements, including the second language and passing the E-Test, to qualify for the International Ski Teacher Diploma.
As for the politics, you are entitled to your opinion but I'm more interested in evidence.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG, you keep implying that those who hold a different political view to you do so on the basis of a lack of evidence. Can you tell us:
(1) precisely which views you consider unjustified through lack of evidence and
(2) what type of evidence, if it existed, they might be able to present that would influence your view?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 26-11-04 9:50; edited 1 time in total
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| Julian T wrote: |
Why should a vote seeking politician in France looking to ingratiate himself with a local interest group tell me where I should give my business? I know enough to make my own judgement, and would rather take the risk myself than be told where to spend my money by someone who is more interested in getting votes, or protecting local interests, than providing the best deal to customers. Anyway, I'm voting with my feet, and taking a large group to Austria this year! |
 You're incredibly naive about Austrian politics then. Have you any idea how restrictive the rules are in the Tyrol for non-Austrian instructors. For example, they are only allowed to work 28 days in a season, cannot recruit clients in the resort, can't work more than 14 consecutive days etc etc.
Your argument is fatally flawed to start with, it's hardly protectionism if the French expect foreign instructors to be qualified to the same level as the local ones. This thread started with an article primarily about some ski schools basically abusing the "stagiaire" system, it's obviously a scam and the ESF are quite right to complain about it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| PG, you keep implying that those who hold a different political view to you do so on the basis of a lack of evidence. |
Perhaps you should reread my posts because I have been very careful to do no such thing.
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Can you tell us:
(1) precisely which views you consider unjustified through lack of evidence and
(2) what type of evidence, if it existed, they might be able to present that would influence your view? |
When you've rephrased the first part of your post, I will be happy to reply to your questions.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ise,
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You're incredibly naive about Austrian politics then.
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No - have just had better personal experience with ski school in Austria, where they seem to be more customer focused, than the ESF in Courchevel 1850. I'm sure all the alpine nations are pretty restrictive - the French may just be first amongst equals when it comes to protectionism (based on press coverage, and what's written on ski instructor tuition websites)
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it's hardly protectionism if the French expect foreign instructors to be qualified to the same level as the local ones
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Yes it is, if they are deliberately setting the bar at an artificially high level versus what's required to teach on piste recreational skiers. What's the relevance of off-piste mountain safety and speed racing qualifications for teaching on the nursery slopes? Is there any evidence that average recreational skiers benefit more from being taught by such highly qualified instructors?
Of course you need a qualification system to maintain standards and keep out cowboys - but who is arguing that BASI 2 instructors are cowboys? It's not their customers complaining that they are inadequately served....it's the local instructors who don't want competition
There may be a reasonable case for protectionism to help preserve communities in economically deprived areas (e.g. local fishing or farming communities in remote areas that are under threat) - and one can argue whether alpine ski villages fall under this category - but it's disingenuous to claim that the French or other alpine countries' requirements for ski instructor qualifications are primarily motivated by the desire to give the customer a better service.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Julian T, you're just ignoring the facts in front of you now.
Protectionism is :
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| The advocacy, system, or theory of protecting domestic producers by impeding or limiting, as by tariffs or quotas, the importation of foreign goods and services. |
There's no protection of domestic suppliers over foreign ones, they have to have the exact same qualification. Which, as I've just pointed out to you is not true in Austria which you chose as an example. The ESF were complaining primarily about ESI another domestic supplier, with in fact some considerable justification.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PG wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| PG, you keep implying that those who hold a different political view to you do so on the basis of a lack of evidence. |
Perhaps you should reread my posts because I have been very careful to do no such thing.
| Quote: |
Can you tell us:
(1) precisely which views you consider unjustified through lack of evidence and
(2) what type of evidence, if it existed, they might be able to present that would influence your view? |
When you've rephrased the first part of your post, I will be happy to reply to your questions. |
Pardon me. Only a semi-literate fool could possibly construe that the statement "As for the politics, you are entitled to your opinion but I'm more interested in evidence" implied that you felt that those who hold a different political view to you do so on the basis of a lack of evidence. I didn't get Bill Clinton's drift on the meanings of the word "is" either. I'll really have to get myself an education one of these days. You are of course fair-minded in all matters and would never stoop to sophistry in order to denigrate the views of others. Now perhaps the Right Honorable Gentleman would care to answer the question.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Julian, there's a whole series of points you make that need a response, firstly the bar is not set artificially high, it's set at a high standard to weed out the no-hopers. The test is open to all and as I understand it they do get a large numbers of wannabes pitching up. A lot of instructors, especially in some of the smaller brigrades are ex-competitors, some members of the national teams, so if they wanted to they could make it really difficult. I used to have an English instruction qualification but I knew there was no way I'd be able to make the grade, too old, too unfit etc. For my 28 year old son with PSIA & ASIA qualifications, no problem.
I never spoken to any instructor who has said they don't want competition, what they have all said is, come and work within the system, that means starting as an apprentice. Now that may be a bit hard to accept for an established instructor but I know people who've done it and there is no rancour from the established instructors.
As regards the community, in our village the population drops to about 400 once the season is over, it's around the 10,000 mark during the season. So the jobs available with the ski schools are important, there are around 70 members of the ESF brigade here, probably about 10 in Evo2 and maybe half a dozen in the ESI. So, not many if everyone took lessons. Not all those jobs are held by locals but the vast majority are. The point is that the entire village understands that the commune can only survive by ensuring guests want to come back to La Rosiere and also tell other people how good it is. Check out some of the comments on various websites, the SCGB specifically mentions the good reputation enjoyed by the ESF. I would also challenge that they are not motivated by a desire to give better customer service, because it's my experience that all our ski schools are. Maybe it's part of the magic that makes our little village a bit different from other places.
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Laundryman, It means what it says. I am more interested in finding out the facts that making unfounded, premature assertions about the alleged motives of those involved. I would have thought my earlier comment was pretty explicit.
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| As for the rest, there is obviously far more to it than you suggest. The law may or may not be a clumsy attempt to stop the influx of unqualified personnel, or there may be an element of succumbing to pressure from a powerful interest group in French skiing. Or both. However neither I nor you are sufficiently knowledgeable on the subject to chuck out gratuitous comments. We just don't possess enough of the facts to hold firm opinions. Laundryman asks for views, but what we need at this stage is information. |
Now, ignoring your sarcasm, perhaps you can answer a question of mine. Is that a fair position to hold until we have some solid information? So far the detractors of the ESF have relied on a considerable amount of hearsay, with little concrete evidence.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PG wrote: |
| Laundryman, It means what it says. |
If only life were that simple, the world could save a fortune on lawyers, and probably avoid the odd war.
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I am more interested in finding out the facts that making unfounded, premature assertions about the alleged motives of those involved. I would have thought my earlier comment was pretty explicit.
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| As for the rest, there is obviously far more to it than you suggest. The law may or may not be a clumsy attempt to stop the influx of unqualified personnel, or there may be an element of succumbing to pressure from a powerful interest group in French skiing. Or both. However neither I nor you are sufficiently knowledgeable on the subject to chuck out gratuitous comments. We just don't possess enough of the facts to hold firm opinions. Laundryman asks for views, but what we need at this stage is information. |
Now, ignoring your sarcasm, perhaps you can answer a question of mine. Is that a fair position to hold until we have some solid information? |
I don't have a problem with that. However, I think my remarks have been stated as conjectures rather than assertions (can't speak for others) and my only gratuitous contribution has been the sarcasm. You have made conjectures as well, which I have not sought to dismiss: only to point out plausible alternatives.
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| So far the detractors of the ESF have relied on a considerable amount of hearsay, with little concrete evidence. |
This is where I get confused. There has been a considerable amount of negative personal experience of the ESF recounted. What type of "concrete evidence" are you looking for? You still haven't answered that. I get the impression you're thinking of something like a taped conversation between the head of the ESF and the minister of sports saying "let's shaft the upstart ski schools good and proper", but I could be barking up the wrong tree. I just don't know until you're more explicit.
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laundryman, For the legislation to have been passed I would hope that there is some documented argument in support of the measure in the public domain. Some specific information on the nature and extent of the alleged abuse of the trainee system. We could do with input from a selection of British- and French- run independent schools, as well as an individual ESF director or two. Yesterday I emailed and faxed the chairman of the ESF, asking for his comments. That would do for starters.
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That would be nice - truce?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've been thinking about the posts on this thread and the related one. PG is right that none of us has much solid information, yet reactions have been visceral on both sides. I think we have mere symptoms of a culture clash here, that goes far wider than ski instruction. I reckon that many disputes within the EU, particularly where the British and French are the prime antagonists, have the same root cause. It's illuminating that that the centre of gravity of the pro-ESF snowHead camp (I know the label is inadequate, but I can't think of a better one at the moment) is over the channel, while the anti-ESF camp is rooted in middle England. The exiles are obviously attuned to both cultures.
I think the ideas that underlie the divergent cultural responses go back to Locke (late 1600s) and Rousseau (mid 1700s), if not beyond. Locke felt that individual endeavour would lead to improvements for human society and that the role of the state should be limited to securing individuals' natural rights, enabling them to pursue their own goals free from interference. His ideas were developed in the economic field by Smith and informed the American revolutionaries. The idea that the state should not interfere in private transactions was a guiding principal of government in Britain throughout the 19th century, and has only gradually been watered down since, and perhaps not at all in America. Hence, perhaps, Julian T's gut reaction (which is mine too):
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| Why should a vote seeking politician in France looking to ingratiate himself with a local interest group tell me where I should give my business? I know enough to make my own judgement, and would rather take the risk myself than be told where to spend my money by someone who is more interested in getting votes, or protecting local interests, than providing the best deal to customers. |
Rousseau, on the other hand, believed that an unrestrained quest for personal enrichment would inevitably lead to conflict (for example, over scarce resources), that therefore citizens should cede some element of their freedom of action to the collective will, so that the state could arrange affairs in order to minimise the possibility of conflict. His ideas informed the French revolutionaries, and Napoleon took them to the rest of the continent.
If you accept all that, what to do about it? Very difficult. The UK is our country and France is theirs. No one is happy by the imposition of alien ideas. On the other hand, in a single market there needs to be common rules at some level. The trouble is, I think, that we've been struggling to derive them in the absence of common values.
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laundryman, Congratulations on raising the tone of the debate - this has got to be one of the most intelligent contributions I've seen on snowHeads in its short history (I am being sincere!).
I totally agree with your analysis. The thing I find puzzling is how on earth did the French sign up to the original Treaty of Rome - Article 3 calls for the elimination between member states "of obstacles to freedom of movement for persons, services and capital.” And this was before the French also signed the Single European Act, which required “free movement of goods, persons, services and capital” by Dec 31 1992. Both sound a bit too close to anglo-saxon capitalism to be adopted with any enthusiasm by nations with conflicting values.
The charitable interpretation is that different nations have a different perspective of what constitutes "freedom of movement"...the more probable one is that they pick and choose based on what suits them.
Incidentally ise, given your concern about ignoring facts, if your read Article 3 it makes clear that protectionism isn't just about tariffs and quotas, but the any measure that acts as a barrier.
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