 Poster: A snowHead
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Butterfly,
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I was really sad to see the arguments that went on, and even sadder that the pros were made to feel like not bothering to contribute (though I understand their feelings).
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This and the rest of what you posted sum up what I feel. I think it is a sad day when people who gave so much of their time (it takes a long time to type answers without even considering the thought that goes into them) get so disenchanted with things that they feel unable to contribute anymore. In reality it doesn't really matter whose fault it was, it was allowed to happen. This is a site, which has relatively good self policing and star cast of mods and admins when things go off the rails a little. Yet we as the Snowheads collective allowed really useful people to get that tee-ed off that they don't post anymore. I think we are the losers.
I'm sorry for this thread, but its been on my mind since I found out what had happened. I hope I didn't contribute to their leaving - I posted so often to BZK that it is possible. I wish they'd come back and we could 'all be friends again'.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I wish they'd come back and we could 'all be friends again'
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Dragging up the problem and thus allowing the old arguments to surface again is a sure way of stopping that happening isn't it
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| brian, er, probably best not to dredge it up again. |
Quite!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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boredsurfin, OK, we'll ask the mods to lock thread eh? I completely missed most of the last few days of all this before crimble and never really caught up. I'd just like to see the pro's back and will go back to my original observation, that BZK is not the board it once was, I know I spend relatively little time here now compared with before Christmas and was just trying to work why that might be. I just wondered if anyone else would like to join with me in asking the pro's to come back?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ray Zorro, that's exactly what was said, more or less. Well - I was trying to help people with their skiing, and I did it on snowheads for nearly 3 years. I worked for less than my going rate at 3 EOSBs and 2 PSBs. My motivation was to help skiers become better skiers. This is why I do what I do and earn relatively little - to suggest that my contributions are economically driven is part of previous suggestions which I found offensive. Also, perhaps you would like to re-read the two threads on Suggestions?
I don't understand why there should be a problem with us pros disagreeing with each other. There are disagreements in all professions, why should ski teaching be any different? I don't think less of V8, Spyderman, Ski Motteret or any others if they don't agree with me - of course I probably think they're wrong, but that's not a real problem. I do have an issue with being told that someone who's done 6 - 20 weeks skiing knows more about it than I or any of the other pros do. I don't think that's arrogant at all. We have all done many, many weeks and months and years of training, we have spent a great deal of our own money to do the courses and get our various qualifications - the further up the tree the longer it takes and the harder it is - ask V8 how hard it is to get to ISTD level. No doubt he's working his socks off.
I'm sure that slikedges might disagree with another surgeon about the best sutures or procedure to use, Kramer might disagree with another GP about the best treatment for a given condition/illness; Hurtle might even disagree with Arno about the best legal strategy. For sure accountants disagree about what's allowable in the tax returns! I have always completely failed to see why ski teachers are always supposed to agree. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ray Zorro, I do not think you will find that Fastman made any money out of any involvement with snowheads... Given the amount of time I know he spent on writing articles for the site and anwering people he would need to get an awful lot of work to make it worth his while... He got NOTHING for the time it spent. It was a labour of love sharing his extensive knowledge of the sport with others...
The idea that pros are somehow making money doing this is crazy... they could spend an hour or two in the bar each night and get as many referrals...
and in Fastman's case if he was wanting to be working at ski instructing right now he would be... he instead is meeting other commitments that have a higher priority for him...
Peoiple post here out of a desire to help other and to pass on their love of the sport... forget the money idea it is insulting!
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boredsurfin, that's hardly a constructive comment is it? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, snap! 
Glad you got to have a say as well!
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brian
brian
Guest
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Anyway, all those that thought there was something wrong with it before, look at it now. Poor eng_ch and Hurtle looking for off piste advice and getting half arsed rubbish from punters like me
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, your post makes little sense. It was easiski that introduced the financial aspect into this thread by saying "Why should we (the pros) do for free what we normally get paid for just to be slagged off?"
easiski, if your advice was being condemned by amateurs then I fully empathise with your position.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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brian
brian
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Arno, there's no such thing as gravitational force, just variations in the fabric of space-time 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, wow that's uber-lucid for a post-lunch ..er... post
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
But maybe the answer to the question "Why should we (the pros) do for free what we normally get paid for..." is that the professionals on this forum probably get a reasonable amount of business through the recommendations on here and giving out a bit of advice could be a nice way to repay it.  |
You said this.
It is simply FALSE!
There is no financial sense at all to posting here.
I can tell you that Fastman has not had any work at all from posting here. I know how many students he currently has and what payment levels he sets.
He has no students from his involvement with this site.
In return he spent many hours creating teaching information.
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brian
brian
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Similarly a quick glance at the private lesson prices of easiski versus other Brits operating in the alps would swiftly disabuse you of the notion she's in it for the money.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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brian, i thought it was all down to some German-sounding bloke's cat 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, Nice post
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| Little Tiger wrote: |
| There is no financial sense at all to posting here. |
I do not believe that for a second. My perception is that there are significantly more recommendations for professionals that post on this site than for those that don't. |
The only professionals that get recommendations here are the ones for whose services :sH: has any customer base whatsoever.
The others mostly recognise that there are no customers here for them, and they generally don't even trouble to make their contact details available.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
| .. to suggest that my contributions are economically driven is part of previous suggestions which I found offensive. |
Was that suggestion made?
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brian
brian
Guest
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Ray Zorro, the "it" was ski teaching in general, not snowheads.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| Ray Zorro wrote: |
But maybe the answer to the question "Why should we (the pros) do for free what we normally get paid for..." is that the professionals on this forum probably get a reasonable amount of business through the recommendations on here and giving out a bit of advice could be a nice way to repay it. |
You said this.
It is simply FALSE!
There is no financial sense at all to posting here.
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The Pros on here are not motivated to post by financial gain, they do it because they want to, but there is certainly financial gain as a by product of posting. How many snowHeads have visited CEM & the Zookeepers? how many snowHeads have booked lessons with Easiski? All as a result of posts on snowHeads.
I agree absolutely with Ray Zorro's post.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
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I wish they'd come back and we could 'all be friends again'
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Dragging up the problem and thus allowing the old arguments to surface again is a sure way of stopping that happening isn't it |
Absolutely right, as the progress of this thread has shown. I regret having posted on it. It must by now be clear at least to easiski and Fastman , that I respect both their knowledge and their manner of communicating that knowledge, and I intend to leave it at that.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
little tiger, if Fastman is not working at ski instructing right now then it is unsurprising that he has no students from this site 
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He has declined to run a race program... he works with select clients of his choosing...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| easiski wrote: |
| I have always completely failed to see why ski teachers are always supposed to agree. |
For the same reason army officers are never supposed to argue in front of the men.
None of the above-mentioned services rely on full cooperation and participation from customers who do not understand the basis for what they do.
The audience to a ski instructor or hypothetical army officer spat generally doesn't understand the technical issue, never expects to understand the technical issue let alone understand the technical issue as part of an underlying truth, even less perceive the shape of the underlying truth and the difference in perception and context that make the dispute.
Faith in the person that *knows* is all that is required. Consensus is King. If consensus wasn't king, and exceptions weren't bad then the entire lot of them could be wrong, and can't have that. Upsets the tartiflette in its meanderings.
Hence the advent of i2i forums and officers' tents.
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Poster: A snowHead
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comprex, If you think doctors do not require full cooperation and participation from their patients I'm very glad you are not my doctor!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, I stand by what I wrote, both the literal and ironic meanings.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Arno, Interesting point, but supposing the person consulted you separately you might well advise different whatevers.
The disagreement between instructors is not generally on progression, or method, or what constitutes good skiing. It's generally about the way of putting it over, or the order in which it's best to teach things or small differences in teaching methodology. The CSIA has a slightly different focus to BASI to ENSA or whoever, but that doesn't mean to say that all these bodies actually disagree in general - just in how to put it over etc. I could say that CSIA trained instructors tend to 'hunch', ENSA ones tend to bank and BASI ones tend to look a little robotic. These are ridiculous generalisations, and are actually not at all pertinent. We all start with a snowplough/wedge or whatever you want to call it, move through a plough-parallel/stem christie/basic swing/virage de base or whatever you want to call it, onto parallel turns (although these tend to evolve these days as opposed to the bad old days) and thence to higher end manoevres and more advanced skiing. There is some disagreement about the point at which you teach pole planting, but this really does not matter to the general understanding of the recreational skier. We all keep our bodies sort of vaguely towards the valley (varies how much to a degree), and we mostly keep our weight principally on the turning (outside) ski. We all tend to promote hip width skis (natural stance) and good balance. I have only come across one extremely different idea and that was the chap who taught at the MSB last year. I'm sure that non of the pros who have posted here would advocate bringing the outside arm around, rotating the shoulders so that you end up looking up the hill!! I think it's been very clear OTW whether the questions were primary school, GCSE or degree level.
Therefore, if a person asks a question they may get slightly different replies, but not vastly different if you read them carefully. They are likely to get a number of exercises suggested - no one exercise works for everyone, so they might try all or some of them at the local plastic slope, one or two of them might work for that person. This does not mean that the other exercises are no good - just that they didn't work for that particular person.
There is some disagreement about teaching beginners to rotate their outside foot to start the turn. I have said in this case that I do this a little differently to the training bodies, because I have found a method that I think works better in the long run. However, I have also posted at considerable length exactly how I teach beginners and why.
WRT financial gain: of course there is a spin off, but I'm sure most of the pros who have posted here also have at least equal numbers of referrals that are not SH related, and if they're like me, they've encouraged all their students to join Snowheads - so some of the people who've posted nice things about me for instance were already my students and SH was secondary. It is the assumption that financial gain is the motivating factor that is offensive. Is everyone in the UK so jaded these days?
I would also suggest that if none of the pros had any passion about skiing and ski teaching, not only would they never have posted, but they wouldn't care about putting their point across!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rayscoops, agreed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, Your second para is very erudite , and worthy of a thread of its own. I'll cut-and-paste tomorrow if I may, as after a 'few'lessons in the last 3 years I now have enough experience (of lessons) that all instructors ( well nearly all) teach the same things but with different personal styles, priorities and emphases ( and undoubtedly ability) ...... which then begs other questions .. 
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Megamum This thread does seem to be picking at a scab rather unnecessarily. The instructors are free to post if they wish to. At least half the strife seemed to be between them, with some posting absurdly dogmatic statements, others slagging off ordinary punters, or seeming to me to imply that the approach one side of the Atlantic was better than the other. And then we had long unprompted essays about particular aspects of skiing. I agree entirely by the way with Agenterres analysis in his post to LT
Having said which - if I were an instructor I would not post here unless it did raise my profile and encourage business. For most of us skiing is play,not work. I certainly wouldn't spend more than 10% of my web forum posts talking about my day job, much as I love it.
BZK may be quieter, but I think it is also better.
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This thread does seem to be picking at a scab rather unnecessarily
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Well, I unreservedly apologise if that's how it seems, I wasn't intentionally stirring the pot wishing to bring up bad feeling (come on folks, you know that is always the furthest thing from my thoughts - its me here ), but I do miss the input from the all the people that I got a lot out of reading the posts from last year and think still think its a shame that they're not around. Why should I not state that? I didn't push this thread in the direction its gone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, agree with all of that - but in my profession, you get the same sense of bewilderment when one lawyer gives advice which sounds very different as you do on here when someone says "but i was always taught..."
often the reason for the differences lie in the exact question asked or the precise circumstances - but non-experts don't always appreciate that. i know you know that but some people aren't quite so empathetic on these things as you
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